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Fly Molo posted:Or sub-commanders in charge of each wing of the battle, possibly with a reserve. It’s not one man trying to maneuver 150,000, it’s three generals commanding 50,000-man armies and working in tandem. I feel like a lot of Alexander's battles came down to surprisingly straight forward charges like that. There's also a theory that at the battle of Graniculus Alexander probably wasn't even really in charge after the initial cavalry engagement. This is because during that engagement, Alexander was hit in the head from behind with an ax and was almost certainly badly concussed. The blow was so powerful it actually split his helmet in two and left Alexander reeling in his own blood. Even if he didn't suffer head trauma, I can't imagine charging into a melee makes command and control any easier.
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May 7, 2020 01:51
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Fly Molo posted:Or sub-commanders in charge of each wing of the battle, possibly with a reserve. It’s not one man trying to maneuver 150,000, it’s three generals commanding 50,000-man armies and working in tandem. This is my strategy in warcraft 3 and it usually works lol
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May 7, 2020 02:37
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I’d assume that there are few things that would make a cohort break than seeing their leader flee for their life. Even dying in battle would probably have some sort of fortifying affect.
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May 7, 2020 03:57
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TK-42-1 posted:Even dying in battle would probably have some sort of fortifying affect. The examples I know of historically the death if a leader was killed it wasn't good for morale, see William lifting his helmet on the Bayeux tapestry for instance.
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May 7, 2020 05:03
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I know that tactically it's extremely disheartening for your commander to flee, but there's also the political angle where if the entire union of the Empire is embodied in one person (who may be a god or representative of god? I'm never really sure which ancient monarchs are supposed to be god-kings), then when that guy abandons the army, there's all of a sudden nothing to fight for. The highest authority that you're supposed to be organized under is gone, and unless you're just personally really keen on the battle, then either you chase your paycheck, or you take the opportunity to go desert and find something else worthwhile to do with your life.
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May 7, 2020 06:32
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Ask the other guy if he's hiring?
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May 7, 2020 06:47
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Milo and POTUS posted:Ask the other guy if he's hiring? I think the other guy's dudes are looking for loot, first, including your clothes. Only then they might look at your cv (and if it's good hold you for ransom)
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May 7, 2020 07:08
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TK-42-1 posted:I’d assume that there are few things that would make a cohort break than seeing their leader flee for their life. Even dying in battle would probably have some sort of fortifying affect. Well, Gustaf II Adolf was killed during the Battle of Lutzen and his army still carried the field that day, altough calling that a great victory would be streching things too far. Altough he didn't die in the full view of his army, he took command of some cavalry, charged off and was only later found dead. And General Wolfe was killed during the Battle on the Plains of Abraham and his army also won the battle decisively, and I think he died much more publicly than Gustaf. And of course Nelson was killed during Trafalgar, but in a naval battle like that the knowledge of what had happened wouldn't have spread to many ships during the fighting itself.
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May 7, 2020 07:15
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Carillon posted:News/history divide aside, current events have me rereading about the battle of Gaugamela. There seems to be huge ranges given for the numbers of Persians fighting. That made me curious how these things were calculated. I know there's been some talk about this before, but it seems an interesting intersection between literary sources, any excavation of the battle field if possible, and then deep knowledge of the construction of the state and it's ability to actually assemble people to fight. Even given all that I can't imagine a battle between 150k people in my head, my mind boggles at anyones ability to actually control something like that. I just trust Herodotus' numbers implicitly  , makes battles much more fun to imagine.
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May 7, 2020 08:40
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Listen man, if you can't trust Herodotus who *can* you trust
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May 7, 2020 10:21
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Ataxerxes posted:And of course Nelson was killed during Trafalgar, but in a naval battle like that the knowledge of what had happened wouldn't have spread to many ships during the fighting itself. He died after winning, though, if I recall correctly. It took a while.
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May 7, 2020 10:46
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MikeCrotch posted:Listen man, if you can't trust Herodotus who *can* you trust A bunch of really stoned scythians in a tent
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May 7, 2020 10:56
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feedmegin posted:He died after winning, though, if I recall correctly. It took a while. Was he dead by the time he was dunked into a barrel of brandy, or was that just part of the celebration
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May 7, 2020 11:38
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Now I am imagining scythian Cheech and Chong sitting in their tent and telling a wide-eyed foreign historian " Yeah man, totally, there's this place with, like, giant ants, heh, and they dig up gold like, all the time man."
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May 7, 2020 11:40
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After trying to keep two growing kids fed, I have come to the conclusion that battles are actually impossible. It's just not do-able to get the amount of food required for ten thousand people in the one spot. It's all fake, just like the gold-finding ants. e: ants are mostly good at finding greyish leaves, actually
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May 7, 2020 11:59
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Have you tried taking food from your neighbours
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May 7, 2020 12:36
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The Achaemanid Empire was very much an empire with a bunch of various occupied and conquered peoples as constituent parts. Each of those conquered peoples would be obligated to contribute troops to the wars. This wasn't like, conscripts or whatever going in to a national army - this was according to their National Character in terms of what they were good at. So you might have the Mardians obligated to contribute, say, 1,500 archers. These would be an independent unit under Mardian leadership that would then be part of the "Achaemenid Army" (for lack of a better term) under Persian command. So at Gaugamela you have a bunch of these conquered peoples serving Darius, and some of them are of dubious loyalty and just there to make up the numbers. Plus, there's so god drat many people spread over space them that communication is difficult, let alone due to regional linguistic differences. Once battle is joined they all kind of fight separately according to their motivations and capabilities, and ideally they act at least in a non-detrimental way. Most ancient warfare talks about the center and the flanks because basically you just tried to beat the gently caress out of the guys in front of you, meaning that any battle at scale was broken up in to at least 3 related localized engagements, and possibly more based on scale. You'll note that although Alexander decisively reinforced his right wing at Gaugamela and beat the Persian left, he then had to go back and rescue his left wing, which was getting beat up by the Persian right.
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May 7, 2020 13:40
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So, uh, has any military operation occurred where it kind of fizzled out during the planning phase, have its details published in the mass media under the assumption that it was cancelled and implicitly declassified, and within 24 hours the people in charge pull the trigger anyway and send their troops out to into the jaws of an alerted enemy? Because this is what appears to have happened. When questioned about it they said they wanted to pull an Alexander the Great. But Alex had the best possible troops at his disposal, and the enemy king lacked that and lacked defensive depth.
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May 7, 2020 14:23
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Phobophilia posted:So, uh, has any military operation occurred where it kind of fizzled out during the planning phase, have its details published in the mass media under the assumption that it was cancelled and implicitly declassified, and within 24 hours the people in charge pull the trigger anyway and send their troops out to into the jaws of an alerted enemy? If I was in charge of those guys I would have told them to try to hold in their guts for the team photo
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May 7, 2020 14:36
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Alexander also seemed acutely aware of his capabilities, while these gents... do not
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May 7, 2020 14:48
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Fangz posted:Have you tried taking food from your neighbours That sounds dreadful! Foraging, however.....
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May 7, 2020 14:57
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I kind of assumed that was in the rich tradition of American citizens taking it upon themselves to go forth and conquer with no meaningful support from any sovereign state. As to your question, I think there's a few times in the Revolutions podcast where all the plotting revolutionaries decided that they wouldn't act until much later, only for something stupid to happen where somebody jumps the gun. Can't remember anything specific though. The French Invasion of Ireland seemed like it had a whole deal where it was kind of abandoned during the planning phases and not given serious resources so that when it actually did happen, it failed miserably. Although maybe I'm confusing that with the much more pathetic invasion of Wales. Milo and POTUS posted:Ask the other guy if he's hiring? I'm pretty sure that happened in some of the Roman civil wars.
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May 7, 2020 15:08
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Defenestration of Moscow
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May 7, 2020 16:05
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Milo and POTUS posted:Ask the other guy if he's hiring? That's exactly how Alexander was able to do what he did. Enormous numbers of Persians and and their conquered nationalities switched sides, especially after Gaugamela. Not just ordinary soldiers, but high-ranking nobility too, who decided not to go down with the ship after Darius made such a poor showing.
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May 7, 2020 16:23
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from PYFDabir posted:I've been reading a military technical manual from about 1405 and I'm pretty sure it's an elaborate prank on the people the author was trying to sell it to. Look at this poo poo.
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May 7, 2020 16:51
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Are those the first known example of 'googley eyes' in the first image?
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May 7, 2020 16:58
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Anyone know of a good, not too dry, introduction to the Balkans war? It's 75 years ago now, and some of my friends are interested in :knowingmore:
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May 7, 2020 17:51
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Tias posted:Anyone know of a good, not too dry, introduction to the Balkans war? It's 75 years ago now, and some of my friends are interested in :knowingmore: You say that like theres just one  I can remember at least three or so from the 1990s.
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May 7, 2020 17:57
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For it to be 75 years, I'm guessing the first balkan war? I better ask
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May 7, 2020 18:00
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What if it's in Balkan years?
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May 7, 2020 18:03
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Phobophilia posted:So, uh, has any military operation occurred where it kind of fizzled out during the planning phase, have its details published in the mass media under the assumption that it was cancelled and implicitly declassified, and within 24 hours the people in charge pull the trigger anyway and send their troops out to into the jaws of an alerted enemy? Somewhat of a similar vein, Austria-Hungary's ultimatum to Serbia was leaked and pretty well busted during the July Crises if I remember correctly.
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May 7, 2020 18:04
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Nenonen posted:What if it's in Balkan years? Our story begins in 1354 as Gallipoli...
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May 7, 2020 18:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Tias posted:For it to be 75 years, I'm guessing the first balkan war? I better ask I mean that was like 1912 though. 75 years ago would be like... Yugoslavia at the end of WW2?
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May 7, 2020 18:09
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Yeah VE Day was 75 years ago tomorrow. Maybe all the partisan shenanigans going down in occupied Yugoslavia?
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May 7, 2020 18:15
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They were off on the 75 years, what they wanted ot learn about was the 90s Yugoslav wars. Any good suggestions?
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May 7, 2020 18:37
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I really liked The Balkans by Misha Glenny: it's a general history of the region starting in 1804, so not quite what you're looking for. But he also wrote The Fall of Yugoslavia on the 1990s Balkan wars (but I haven't read it, so I can't comment).
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May 7, 2020 19:08
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Cross posting this from TFRs milsurp thread because it’s cool as gently caress and has a ton of history embedded in it. DkHelmet posted:Late to the party due to crushing work, but that's a beautiful Mosin, a goddamn scoop, and on one of my "buy immediately" lists. If you get bored with it call me! Oh poo poo everyone go back and look at this mosin. See that AZF on the receiver? That’s the mark that the Austrian-Hungarians put on guns they captured and re-issued. (The Germans did something similar FYI) So that gun was used by the Russians in WW1, captured by the Austro-Hungarians, at the very least rolled into their stocks for potential use, sold by someone to the newly independent Finns in the 20s, and used by the finish army during a period when they were using every rifle they had. Good chance it saw some action in at least the winter war. Goddamn that is a neat loving mosin.
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May 7, 2020 19:21
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The Cyrillic engraving is very elegant.
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May 7, 2020 19:55
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FuturePastNow posted:from PYF I noticed in medical texts (nonrepresentative sample size) that in the 17th century people seemed to be knowing what they are writing about and the texts seemed clearly useful in practical terms whereas the older ones were basically "lol look mom I'm printing a book", and this seems to be the engineering equivalent. You kinda wonder about the intended audience.
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May 7, 2020 19:58
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Phobophilia posted:So, uh, has any military operation occurred where it kind of fizzled out during the planning phase, have its details published in the mass media under the assumption that it was cancelled and implicitly declassified, and within 24 hours the people in charge pull the trigger anyway and send their troops out to into the jaws of an alerted enemy? You could argue that the Gallipoli campaign was like that. They did a naval push, completely broadcast their intent, then dicked around and waited for some naval troops. Then they landed in front of the completely prepared turks. I think they just assumed the turkish troops would fold.
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