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One thing that I find a little confusing about the current discourse is the idea of Snyder being an outsider artist. I always got the impression that his success was borne partly out of his willingness to play ball and deliver the film Warner Bros wanted. I honestly cannot believe that the Justice League tease in BvS is the work of a singular creative vision, I also don't think that the fact that Man of Steel shares stylistic approaches to Nolan's Bat-Films was anything but Zack Snyder quite happily doing "Batman Begins but for Superman" on the studio's request. The darkness, lack of humour and violence isn't something Snyder surprised WB with, that was exactly what they wanted because they thought it would sell. He seems like a company guy who knows how to deliver the film the studio wants while also layering in his own creative ideas. That's almost certainly why they gave him the job, they just backed out prematurely when they felt that Snyder's approach wasn't working.
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May 26, 2020 06:12
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Eh! Frank posted:It's a dumb, juvenile moment, but not worth all the outcry it gets. I think that folks are letting the Snydertalk cloud their opinions on this a little. You know a joke that worked? Aquamomoa surfing on the back of a dead parademon. Or getting lasso'd and getting all emotional. Arist posted:"Cyborg is the heart of the movie" what does that even mean I guess it's kind of a riff on how Superman inspires the best in people? Like he changed Batman and that in turn allowed Cyborg to come to terms with his changed body? FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 06:46 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 06:37
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I just can't be convinced we were robbed of the first ever great Cyborg story. I don't think Zack Snyder is the guy that turn that character around. I suppose I'll never know. I suppose to be fair, I don't know what the DC Universe wants with Cyborg. I feel like it's The Thing, but with BOOYAH instead of Yancy Street.
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May 26, 2020 07:21
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The Thing is a great character though (as is Cyborg)
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May 26, 2020 07:32
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SonicRulez posted:I just can't be convinced we were robbed of the first ever great Cyborg story. And maybe it would have been a good "humanity is stronger because they don't give in to the Motherbox lies" thing in there, too.
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May 26, 2020 08:31
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How Wonderful! posted:It works pretty well, Cyborg is the slick and modern robot guy with experience in the superhero mainstream, Robotman is the janky and rusty robot guy who's slightly more at ease in the world that Doom Patrol takes place in, so there's a fun push and pull about which one is over their head in which kind of situation. Huh. I'll have to give the show a shot then. If they can juggle TWO of the "oh woe is me I shoot lasers from my arms" characters and make it work that's genuinely impressive.
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May 26, 2020 08:39
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Doom Patrol is probably the best tv show I watched last year that wasn't another season of a show I already liked.
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May 26, 2020 09:16
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ruddiger posted:Now do one for the Tony Stark bros. As I said, many fandoms are annoying in the excess. Also there are people who think Stark is somehow a good father figure to Spider-Man for whatever reason  Eh! Frank posted:I don't remember this, what scene did it happen in?
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May 26, 2020 10:00
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Karloff posted:One thing that I find a little confusing about the current discourse is the idea of Snyder being an outsider artist. I always got the impression that his success was borne partly out of his willingness to play ball and deliver the film Warner Bros wanted. I honestly cannot believe that the Justice League tease in BvS is the work of a singular creative vision, I also don't think that the fact that Man of Steel shares stylistic approaches to Nolan's Bat-Films was anything but Zack Snyder quite happily doing "Batman Begins but for Superman" on the studio's request. The darkness, lack of humour and violence isn't something Snyder surprised WB with, that was exactly what they wanted because they thought it would sell. He seems like a company guy who knows how to deliver the film the studio wants while also layering in his own creative ideas. That's almost certainly why they gave him the job, they just backed out prematurely when they felt that Snyder's approach wasn't working. Not to defend Synder, but BvS had so many allusions to King Arthur/Excalibur that it became clear that Justice League was the next logical step. After all if you spend all your time referencing that, it has to be so you can do the Knights of the Round Table. I'm not saying his vision was good or that Justice League (the film we got) was the realization of that vision, but I have to think that he wanted to have a crack at doing the League.
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May 26, 2020 10:01
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BrianWilly posted:When Ultron first activates and attacks the Avengers at their party. Happens around 1:25.
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May 26, 2020 10:16
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If you haven't watched Doom Patrol please stop wasting your time on here and use it to watch Doom Patrol instead.
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May 26, 2020 11:55
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ruddiger posted:Now do one for the Tony Stark bros. Tony Stark isn't a real person. Karloff posted:One thing that I find a little confusing about the current discourse is the idea of Snyder being an outsider artist. I always got the impression that his success was borne partly out of his willingness to play ball and deliver the film Warner Bros wanted. I honestly cannot believe that the Justice League tease in BvS is the work of a singular creative vision, I also don't think that the fact that Man of Steel shares stylistic approaches to Nolan's Bat-Films was anything but Zack Snyder quite happily doing "Batman Begins but for Superman" on the studio's request. The darkness, lack of humour and violence isn't something Snyder surprised WB with, that was exactly what they wanted because they thought it would sell. He seems like a company guy who knows how to deliver the film the studio wants while also layering in his own creative ideas. That's almost certainly why they gave him the job, they just backed out prematurely when they felt that Snyder's approach wasn't working. I don't think "outsider artist" is quite right. It's more that people see things through this unitary lens of on the one side "directors acting independently, making the films they want, as an unitary vision, make good movie", and then on the other side, "some kind of faceless executive board dictating how films are made due to market research and survey trends, make bad movie". For the people that do this, Disney represents one side, and Snyder represents the other, and all data can then be filed into neat categories support to support this vision, and contrary evidence ignored or excused away. This distinction isn't really a real one in the first place. People don't get to make billion dollar movies about blokes in spandex without some kind of market incentive and knowledge of the prevailing trends of pop culture (and Snyder is alll about that pop culture influence), and directors (and other staff) are picked because it's believed that they will deliver some degree of their personal distinctiveness together with a successful movie. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:54 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 12:35
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That Snyder's films are influenced by businessman is indisputable, but that his films are created by him is also, whereas I don't think there's a single Marvel movie you can say the same about outside of maybe the very early ones. Boiling that distinction down to, 'well, at heart, they're all there to make money' doesn't really seem interesting or insightful. It's also somewhat unfair, because the same things that are true of Snyder in that comparison are also true of Ayers and Jenkins. I could pick an Ayers movie out of a lineup, I can say that pretty confidently, I don't think I can say the same of a Russo Bros. movie.
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May 26, 2020 12:58
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BrianWilly posted:Look if this is the cosmic price I have to pay for a Percy Jackson reboot then what I can really do but pony up So what is the attraction for that series? Seems like Harry Potter with the names filed off for me.
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May 26, 2020 13:16
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Shageletic posted:So what is the attraction for that series? Seems like Harry Potter with the names filed off for me. I only saw the movies, but they were pretty fun. Slightly more of an Indiana Jones vibe than a 'stuck at school' kind of thing.
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May 26, 2020 13:18
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https://twitter.com/labuzamovies/status/1265057230350499840?s=20
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May 26, 2020 13:32
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Dan Didio posted:That Snyder's films are influenced by businessman is indisputable, but that his films are created by him is also, whereas I don't think there's a single Marvel movie you can say the same about outside of maybe the very early ones. James Gunn was given pretty much free reign to fill out his own corner of the Marvel space universe as he saw fit in both Guardians movies. Same, to a lesser extent, for Taika Waititi and Thor Ragnarok. Even the Russo Bros marvel movies definitely feel different from the things that came before and contemporary to them: there's a through-line of characterization and tone from Winter Soldier to Endgame that feels entirely different from the way Whedon or Favreau wrote and directed them. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 13:33
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Dan Didio posted:That Snyder's films are influenced by businessman is indisputable, but that his films are created by him is also, whereas I don't think there's a single Marvel movie you can say the same about outside of maybe the very early ones. Both Guardians of the Galaxy movies and Thor: Ragnarok at the very least.
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May 26, 2020 13:36
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Black Panther is indisputably Ryan Coogler's personal story, to an extent that no other big tentpole comic movie has been since comic movies became tentpole movies. I'd pretty emphatically disagree on all of those. Especially Black Panther. I think Waititi's Ragnarok is the only one that recognisably has the creator's influence and that's mostly because the things he does well are things that would skate through a Marvel development process unscathed by nature, rather than by special consideration. For Gunn, the only real thing that stands out in either of his films are the weird, Nathan Fillion portrayed prison rapist alien in Guardians of the Galaxy and the soundtracks, which isn't exactly a trait unique to him so much as unique to a (pseudo)-period film. Black Panther, I don't think is recognisably a Coogler film at all, but admittedly you're going off a really small sample size there, so I don't think it's entirely fair, but the swath of predominantly CGI and second unit action scenes in that film aren't really comparable to Creed, if you wanted to try and make some kind of touchstone. The Russo brothers point I just straight up disagree with. They're better than Whedon at what they do, but they're not approaching it from a different angle.
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May 26, 2020 13:40
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I'd probably argue that Captain America: The First Avenger is the clearest example of a director acting somewhat independently, followed closely by Thor and Iron Man 1 and 2, for better or worse.
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May 26, 2020 13:43
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I have no idea what criteria you're using here, but if you don't think the Guardians movies absolutely reek of Gunn (and Ragnarok of Waititi) then I think it's safe to say you're just decisively using a different metric than I am.
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May 26, 2020 13:45
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Dan Didio posted:The Russo brothers point I just straight up disagree with. They're better than Whedon at what they do, but they're not approaching it from a different angle. Gonna disagree hard on this one. You can tell they came up on a show like Community where they had to blend a bunch of gimmicks into a sitcom and have it feel natural, and it really showed with stuff like Civil War and their Avengers movies where they were able to balance aspects of the multiple franchises they were sticking in a blender and have each part feel like a unique part of a whole instead of just pureeing them into homogeneous mush like Whedon did. That and Winter Soldier was a really unique movie as far as the MCU goes, where it’s more “spy thriller with superheroes in it” than “superhero movie with some spy thriller paint on it”.
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May 26, 2020 13:47
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I think you can see elements of Community in the Russo Bros. Marvel film work, but again, I think it's the Waititi thing I proposed; those elements are why they got to the dance, not what they are in spite of it. There aren't really scenes like the ones they excelled with in Community evident in their marvel work, just the general understanding of comedy and action beats that are their life work. I think you definitely could be right that they're better suited to what Marvel wanted than Whedon, but again, I don't get a complete sense of authorship from those movies, so I suspect it's more just that the Russo Bros. strengths are A) stronger than Whedon's, who is a notoriously poor director and B) are easier to submit to the Marvel authorship and still play well. The Winter Soldier is definitely the latter, not the former and better for it.
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May 26, 2020 13:52
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Also, I think Community probably just has a cast that's better at moving between comedy and action homage than the Marvel films are at moving between comedy and action sort of homage.Phylodox posted:I have no idea what criteria you're using here, but if you don't think the Guardians movies absolutely reek of Gunn (and Ragnarok of Waititi) then I think it's safe to say you're just decisively using a different metric than I am. My critieria goes to a different school, you wouldn't know her.
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May 26, 2020 13:55
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Again, you're going to have to define what you mean by "authorship" here, because Gunn and Waititi et al clearly left their stamp on their films, so I don't understand your "Disney authorship" statement. You seem to be saying that all the Marvel movies are homogenized when they're really not. They don't have, like, the overbearing visual style of Zack Snyder, that's true, but they bear definite and undeniable traits of their creators.
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May 26, 2020 13:58
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Is Snyder's work overbearing, visually?
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May 26, 2020 14:04
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Dan Didio posted:Is Snyder's work overbearing, visually? Famously so.
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May 26, 2020 14:09
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By what criteria?
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May 26, 2020 14:13
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Ragnarok actually has the opposite problem of a typical studio tentpole. Instead of a script being hampered by studio meddling, Thor 3 feels like a great Taika Waititi movie burdened by a studio-approved script. The parts where it's obviously a Waititi movie are good, but then you get hints of a darker movie likely from a script written before he was hired. The whole Asgard being destroyed, its warriors killed and its citizens becoming refugees just seems like they had to keep those in because it leads directly to Infinity War.
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May 26, 2020 14:13
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The MSJ posted:Ragnarok actually has the opposite problem of a typical studio tentpole. Instead of a script being hampered by studio meddling, Thor 3 feels like a great Taika Waititi movie burdened by a studio-approved script. The parts where it's obviously a Waititi movie are good, but then you get hints of a darker movie likely from a script written before he was hired. The whole Asgard being destroyed, its warriors killed and its citizens becoming refugees just seems like they had to keep those in because it leads directly to Infinity War. I mean, maybe, but some of the darkest parts of that film deal with Asgard's rotting, corrupt foundations as an imperialist institution (and the things you're talking about are direct responses to that in the story) if those weren't Waititi inputs, it's genuinely a pretty impressive coincidence.
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May 26, 2020 14:17
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Dan Didio posted:That Snyder's films are influenced by businessman is indisputable, but that his films are created by him is also, whereas I don't think there's a single Marvel movie you can say the same about outside of maybe the very early ones.
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May 26, 2020 14:26
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Avengers is very definitely a Whedon film. There are plenty of reasons why that's not a positive but those reasons are also what makes it recognisably by him. That is definitely true.
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May 26, 2020 14:28
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It would be cool if we got Perlmutter's half-finished memoirs in like a year or two when he dies and there was a bit where he was like, "We got to clamp down on these directors, we can't have anymore weirdos shooting long, still shots of abandoned cars and anymore static conversations."
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May 26, 2020 14:30
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Do you really think that say, the director of Iron Man 2, could have made Black Panther? Because I'd argue that those two movies have the same essential premise, but the massive difference in the execution is pure Coogler.
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May 26, 2020 14:41
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What's the actual question? Is it 'how similar do you think Jon Favreau's Black Panther would have been to Ryan Coogler's Black Panther' or...?
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May 26, 2020 14:59
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scary ghost dog posted:youre thinking of the smallville fight. thats from the metropolis fight I have but it was a long ago, YEARS ago. I kinda liked it but it's not Hellboy (Guillermo del Toro's), which is a movie I rewatched until the DVD ended up scratched. I'm sorry I didn't memorized in detail every chaotic scene of a movie I'm not very interested in? I'm gonna step off this thread as it seems I have to bring a tesis about MoS if I wanna ever comment.
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May 26, 2020 15:08
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Fangz posted:Do you really think that say, the director of Iron Man 2, could have made Black Panther? Probably, Black Panther has none of Cooglers touches minus a great selection of music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crMTGCCui5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv554B7YHk4 Creed 2, which he didn't direct, was vastly inferior without him. Black Panther was just another Marvel flick and while it's sorta fine, it would have been nice to see a unique touch ala GoTG 1 and Thor 3.
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May 26, 2020 15:21
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Eh! Frank posted:After hearing all the complaints about that These 20 seconds are the best reaction to that scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFK7oWLWapc&t=411s
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May 26, 2020 15:30
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Ryan Coogler is returning for Black Panther 2. If there was nothing creatively satisfying about the project then I don't think he would be doing that. Black Panther also comes off as far more creatively driven and less cynical than something like Batman v Superman because a) it doesn't just stop in the middle to show what are essentially trailers for other DC films. B) It's not just two top selling graphic novels clumsily smushed together.
Karloff fucked around with this message at 20:36 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 16:16
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Martin Freeman's character would probably have been very different or entirely missing if Coogler had his way. The man admires an African activist rumoured to have been assassinated by the CIA. His return to Black Panther 2 might have its reasons, but with the MCU movies don't be surprised by any changes before filming begins.
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May 26, 2020 16:36
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