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Kart Barfunkel posted:You’re right, I mixed up neoliberal with liberal which Padme definitely is and is shown in this scene. Long, hot day. Okay. Previously I've been addressing an argument that the prequels are a leftist tract. In this leftist read, the Republic is a liberal democracy that falls to fascist Empire because of the inherent contradictions of liberalism: in particular, that such a democracy will be subverted by a ruling class that is inherently receptive to fascist takeover. I feel that this read is invalid in part because the movies instead subscribe to a mainstream liberal "great man" narrative. Palpatine is more akin to Satan or Napeoleon, an "individual [made] great instead of little by ascribing to him a personal power of initiative unparalleled in world history" as Marx describes the liberal view of history. It's also in part because many of the supposed hints that the Jedi are actually sinister are imaginary or require extremely selective reading: eg "From my point of view the Jedi are evil" being taken literally, ignoring the sinister framing. This doesn't seem to be that, though. So can you lay out the argument you're making here more fully? PittTheElder posted:Also, leaving aside Anakin's weirdo politics and that really janky bug riding moment, these are genuinely cute moments between Anakin and Padme. Just for all those people who say they have zero chemistry. I don't see it. This is a conversation with two awkward, stilted performances that don't play off each other (and are noticeably ADRed), glued together with a soundtrack that all but screams in your ear that you're supposed to see this as romantic. The soundtrack for this scene is even named "Love Theme from Attack of the Clones"! Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 05:32 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 05:29
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I think it's insanely cool we all watched 12 hours worth of movies and then spent our entire lives hallucinating about what is right or wrong with them
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May 28, 2020 05:55
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FunkyAl posted:I think it's insanely cool we all watched 12 hours worth of movies and then spent our entire lives hallucinating about what is right or wrong with them Me too! 
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May 28, 2020 06:05
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Cease to Hope posted:The soundtrack for this scene is even named "Love Theme from Attack of the Clones"! Star-crossed lovers are the ones whose relationships are doomed, though?
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May 28, 2020 06:14
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reignofevil posted:Me too! Here is my latest theory: every action in the star wars movies has an equal, inverse action in response to it. When george says, "it's like poetry, it rhymes," it is him describing a complex karmic idea wherein light and dark will never gain traction over each other, despite each reaching extremes of the human experience. Luke dreams of being a jedi but we see that's a hard life, Anakin dreams of being back home, a life his son comes to hate. Obi Wan and Luke are an underdog team against a big establishment, like Maul and Palpatine, but instead of murdering his double Obi Wan instead sacrifices himself to vader, enabling his eventual redemption. And it goes on.
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May 28, 2020 06:27
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The politics of Lucas’ Star Wars movies are written in stories/myths that repeat throughout human history. That’s why they work and resonate. They’re vague enough to remain relevant and have the audience apply the current power structures onto them. The prequels take from the fall of the Weimar Republic, late Rome, and easily apply to the US. George got into some hot water when Sith came out saying that he was being too critical of Bush. It can easily be read as such, just as easily as he said it was Nixon he was using as Palpatine. Just as easily as Sheev could be many other Great Men figures. The Trade Federation is just as much the Dutch East India Company as it is Amazon.
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May 28, 2020 06:32
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Kart Barfunkel posted:The politics of Lucas’ Star Wars movies are written in stories/myths that repeat throughout human history. That’s why they work and resonate. They’re vague enough to remain relevant and have the audience apply the current power structures onto them. The prequels take from the fall of the Weimar Republic, late Rome, and easily apply to the US. George got into some hot water when Sith came out saying that he was being too critical of Bush. It can easily be read as such, just as easily as he said it was Nixon he was using as Palpatine. Just as easily as Sheev could be many other Great Men figures. This is a broad-brush defense of the practice of interpreting film. I was asking for your specific interpretation. Zoran posted:Star-crossed lovers are the ones whose relationships are doomed, though? ...okay? I don't understand how this connects to me saying that this particular star-crossed romance is poorly acted and unconvincing.
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May 28, 2020 06:37
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Cease to Hope posted:...okay? I don't understand how this connects to me saying that this particular star-crossed romance is poorly acted and unconvincing. You were highlighting the name of the track, which seemed odd to me because the name refers to relationships that are bound to fail.
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May 28, 2020 07:21
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I just rewatched Man of Steel and really enjoyed it. Anyway, having reflected on the responses and feedback, I think it's clear that I wasn't paying as close attention as I thought. I would like to encourage both fans and, uh, not fans, to avoid accusing the other side of trying to make grand statements on the mindset of their opposites. I'll try to be as impartial as I can be. I think it's no secret that my sympathies are towards the prequel fans, but luckily reignofevil is my opposite in that regard. Please also don't feel shy about reporting people if you think they're being disruptive. I don't think anybody here is really doing anything that needs to be punished on a regular basis, but there are new people that wander in all the time. Not all of them interested in being nice, as we've seen before.
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May 28, 2020 07:25
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Roth posted:I think it's no secret that my sympathies are towards the prequel fans, but luckily reignofevil is my opposite in that regard. I sense that balance in the force has been established. I have a weird memory of the prequels. I think Revenge of the Sith was the first Star Wars I saw (I have no memory of my opinion of it), and as a kid every time I tried to rent episode 1 and 2 on video my family would watch them and return them without me. My main knowledge of Star Wars until the Force Awakens came out was from Lego Star Wars. But for some reason I love reading prequels discourse. Why??? What is wrong with me??
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May 28, 2020 08:32
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Metis, have you heard the story of Prequels the Good?
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May 28, 2020 08:41
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reignofevil posted:I'd put forward to strengthen Ceases' argument all of the times we did the merry-go-round in this thread about how the prequels are actually about showing the Jedi as corrupt guardians of a decrepit system and that really we're supposed to see them as villainous the same way we do the sith when in fact this is just outright ignoring that when george lucas showed us all the jedi dying and he set it to sad music and he titled his series as a tragedy because he genuinely believed it was about good people falling to ill circumstance. Like many other tragedies. When the film asks us to be sad that all the Jedi are being shot in the back, it's not a contradiction of the idea that the Jedi as an institution are corrupt and decaying. It's yet another reminder that there are heroes on both sides, and the betrayal is a betrayal of both sides - the sad, ominous music is extended to the subsequent scene where Anakin murders the separatist leaders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0AjA51Q38M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abhX0FgijKo Whose death doesn't get a moment of silence? Mace "he's too dangerous to be kept alive" Windu's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1te1YMTH1Q reignofevil posted:Now why would someone deliberately ignore the mise en scene of a movie so they could work within a headcanon that lets them argue that the star wars prequels are thematically much deeper than anyone gave them credit for? I'd say it's because they are arguing from a predetermined position and are cherry picking evidence to try and create an alternative narrative that might suck less to an outside observer. Why you ask? I genuinely think it comes down to contrarianism and a love of argument and hell, same. There is no "headcanon" in that there is always a "headcanon" and you're just more or less willing to accept and examine the preconceptions you're taking while watching the movie. Other people have reality mediated through perception of phenomena, I have direct access to the object etc etc.
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May 28, 2020 09:36
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Lampsacus posted:Oh nice post. Thank you. It makes me long for a prequel opera. I feel they would make a great thee/four hour full cast orchestra opera. You may say this in jest, but I echo it earnestly. I would love to see this live. It would be glorious. Roth posted:I just rewatched Man of Steel and really enjoyed it. Man of Steel owns. It's superhero opera, and opera is extremely my jam.
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May 28, 2020 09:37
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josh04 posted:When the film asks us to be sad that all the Jedi are being shot in the back, it's not a contradiction of the idea that the Jedi as an institution are corrupt and decaying. It's yet another reminder that there are heroes on both sides, and the betrayal is a betrayal of both sides - the sad, ominous music is extended to the subsequent scene where Anakin murders the separatist leaders. You took a scene where the Jedi are shot in the back by their erstwhile allies, faceless soldiers, at the order of an evil wizard who all but cackles as he issues the order, and your takeaway is "heroes on both sides"?
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May 28, 2020 09:42
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Cease to Hope posted:You took a scene where the Jedi are shot in the back by their erstwhile allies, faceless soldiers, at the order of an evil wizard who all but cackles as he issues the order, and your takeaway is "heroes on both sides"? Well, certainly fewer heroes afterwards - but let's not forget The Assassination of General Grievous by the Coward Ben Kenobi.
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May 28, 2020 09:48
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josh04 posted:Well, certainly fewer heroes afterwards - but let's not forget The Assassination of General Grievous by the Coward Ben Kenobi. This what I'm talking about when I talk about galaxy-brain poo poo. Grievous's entire character is old-timey villain cliches and you're still out here insisting he's nuanced somehow.
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May 28, 2020 09:50
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To be clear, I'm not suggesting there are heroes on Palpatine's side. The suggestion is that the war had heroes on both sides who have been tragically manipulated, and as Sidious is making his play they are being massacred, Jedi and Separatist alike.Cease to Hope posted:This what I'm talking about when I talk about galaxy-brain poo poo. Grievous's entire character is old-timey villain cliches and you're still out here insisting he's nuanced somehow. Cliches don't make you a villain - watch this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYitIMujls Grievous, seeing how casually Obi-wan murders his guards, challenges him in single combat to save the rest of the droids. In what interpretation of this scene does Grievous behave villainously?
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May 28, 2020 10:05
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Cease to Hope posted:This what I'm talking about when I talk about galaxy-brain poo poo. Grievous's entire character is old-timey villain cliches and you're still out here insisting he's nuanced somehow. https://www.starwars.com/video/heroes-on-both-sides-episode-featurette Here’s Dave Filoni, basically Lucas’ protege, talking about the concept of ‘heroes on both sides’ line, for the episode of Clone Wars with the same name. The full line is “There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.” Dave’s explanation: “If Count Dooku claims to have left the Republic because an evil Sith Lord is control of the senate and he sways the good senators to leave the republic on the grounds that the republic is corrupt, that’s exactly true.” The arc of that story is Padme going into proctor some treaty with a separatist planet while Ahsoka gets a crush on one.
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May 28, 2020 10:08
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Can someone who has watched the Clone Wars tell me if they ever do the scene where Count Dooku trains Grievous in the Jedi arts? Because that poo poo sounds hilarious.
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May 28, 2020 10:10
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josh04 posted:Can someone who has watched the Clone Wars tell me if they ever do the scene where Count Dooku trains Grievous in the Jedi arts? Because that poo poo sounds hilarious. Sadly they don’t share much screen time together. He does in the 2D one, but that Grievous is basically a different character entirely. https://youtu.be/I-CLZamrhtE
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May 28, 2020 10:13
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josh04 posted:Grievous, seeing how casually Obi-wan murders his guards, challenges him in single combat to save the rest of the droids. In what interpretation of this scene does Grievous behave villainously? The part where he gratuitously threatens his allies, then abandons them as soon as he starts to lose. Plus he doesn't actually show any concern for the fates of his guards, I dunno where you're getting that nonsense. Kart Barfunkel posted:https://www.starwars.com/video/heroes-on-both-sides-episode-featurette Filoni is his own person, and Clone Wars is a separate thing, often playing off of the failings of the prequels and trying to reframe them. It's interesting, but it's a separate work on its own terms. Like you said, Grievous is an entirely different character in different works.
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May 28, 2020 10:58
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General Grievous is my hero. So is Wat Tambor. We just read different Holonews.
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May 28, 2020 11:26
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I will probably watch RotS today.
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May 28, 2020 15:48
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Nute Gunray did nothing wrong.
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May 28, 2020 15:57
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Um, what? The music playing while anakin kills the separatists is parts from duel of the fates, or the imperial march. Nothing about the music playing while he's killing them is sad. It's not even kind of comparable to the music while he kills the younglings.
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May 28, 2020 16:21
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Duel of the Fates is an exciting song, but it's also a sad song. It's also heard when Anakin rides off to hunt down his mother's abductors. It seems to indicate a major step in Anakin's path toward the Dark Side. In hindsight, the duel in question is over whom Anakin is fated to be trained by - Qui-Gon, who is willing to defy Jedi Order dogma and follow his conscience, or Obi-Wan, who is not. When the song is reprised, it indicates a consequence of the outcome of that duel. When he experiences fear and anger that he can't quell, he gives into it, because he's taught that what a Jedi does is bury their feelings deep down; when he joins Palpatine to learn from him, he obeys and kills for him, because he's taught that what a Jedi does is obey and kill for their teacher.
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May 28, 2020 17:00
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CainFortea posted:Um, what? The music playing while anakin kills the separatists is parts from duel of the fates, or the imperial march. Nothing about the music playing while he's killing them is sad. It's not even kind of comparable to the music while he kills the younglings. We were talking about Order 66, not the younglings.
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May 28, 2020 17:21
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josh04 posted:We were talking about Order 66, not the younglings. Okay. That still doesn't make it sad music.
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May 28, 2020 17:59
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It is ominous though
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May 28, 2020 23:48
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Bogus Adventure posted:Nute Gunray did nothing wrong. Trusting an evil wizard to not betray him was not the brightest move.
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May 29, 2020 00:21
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2house2fly posted:It is ominous though Well, yea.
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May 29, 2020 00:27
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Cease to Hope posted:Trusting an evil wizard to not betray him was not the brightest move. He helped bring down an evil capitalist empire, though...
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May 29, 2020 06:36
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He also has one of the best reactions in the entire PT when Padme gets sliced drat, I love the prequels!
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May 29, 2020 06:37
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Bogus Adventure posted:He helped bring down an evil capitalist empire, though... Pretty sure you're misremembering the original trilogy there.
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May 29, 2020 06:40
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Cease to Hope posted:Pretty sure you're misremembering the original trilogy there. Is the Trade Federation mentioned in the OT?
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May 29, 2020 06:52
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To the extent that the Republic is the Empire, he didn't bring down an empire. To the extent that they aren't the same thing, he did.
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May 29, 2020 06:55
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I don't think the Empire technically counts as capitalist. In the EU, they rely on nationalizing industries and direct resource grabs instead of commerce.
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May 29, 2020 07:12
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Bogus Adventure posted:Is the Trade Federation mentioned in the OT? Turning a Republic into a fascist Empire isn't really "bringing down an evil capitalist empire." In fact, it is the opposite of that.
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May 29, 2020 13:19
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Eh, the empire is most likely a command economy; you don't hear anybody talking about the cost of the death star that got blown up or whatnot.
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May 29, 2020 15:08
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Some Goon posted:Eh, the empire is most likely a command economy; you don't hear anybody talking about the cost of the death star that got blown up or whatnot. Setting aside the EU like usual, the only thing we really know about the Empire's economy (remember that almost all of the talk of money changing hands is either on Tatooine or in the context of black markets!) is that it is an Empire. An Empire definitionally exploits a periphery to enrich the center of power. On top of this, every concrete example of exploitation in the Republic - slavery, the opulence of Coruscant contrasted with periphery places like Tatooine, hereditary royalty - still exists in the Empire, and indeed is often worse. Nute Gunray is one of the main leaders of the only explicitly capitalist society, and they're annihilated in the prequels.
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May 29, 2020 15:20
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