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seaborgium posted:Yeah, that was pretty hosed up. Every woman Mat chases, even the ones who aren't interested, make it quite clear that he backs off if it's unwanted. He's flirty but not pushy at all, so it always boggled my mind how much Elayne and Nynaeve poo poo on him for it. I mean they're legit two of the worst hypocrites of the series, and deliberately written that way.
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Jun 1, 2020 23:46
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Someone earlier mentioned it earlier, but it would’ve been cool to see Elayne’s conflict between being Aes Sedai and daughter-heir earlier in the series. Part of it’s just the change in time scale beginning in the middle of the books, but it feels like a long time from Morgase’s fall to where I am at the end of CoS. She keeps reminding everyone she’s the daughter-heir but even with the ability to make a gateway she’s uninterested in returning.
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Jun 2, 2020 00:05
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silvergoose posted:I mean they're legit two of the worst hypocrites of the series, and deliberately written that way. Nynaeve at least has the excuse that she was The Boss of a small town with a rather prudish bent, and Mat was one of the people she was In Charge of. It is pretty related to the way she's overbearingly bossy because she had to assert her authority over people much older than herself at a very young age, and the way she becomes much more likeable once she learns how to surrender her authority.
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Jun 2, 2020 00:08
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Sure and if you squint at it, flip the script around a bit, reversing roles, it's basically the women using the "but he's a slut" argument on a dude. It's not supposed to be comfortable!
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Jun 2, 2020 00:08
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I'm not sure if I buy the whole Stockholm Syndrome argument. I always had the impression he was into her legitimately. But, apparently I blanked out the bit where she jams a dagger under his chin and says STRIP. NOW. I dunno. Maybe it's intended to make people think twice about sex and power imbalances? Or maybe RJ was right into dagger-chin loving
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Jun 2, 2020 00:14
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i might be crazy but i'm pretty sure there's literally an interview where jordan says it's explicitly meant to come off as being uncomfortable and basically just flipping the roles to fit the setting. also i think all of the women realize that he's telling the truth after a bit and are 100% on his side? and even beyond that, i'm thinking ahead to the inevitable show and how there'll probably be like 1000 ways for them to gently caress up that whole situation and i'm not looking forward to any of them.
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Jun 2, 2020 00:15
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Johnny Joestar posted:i might be crazy but i'm pretty sure there's literally an interview where jordan says it's explicitly meant to come off as being uncomfortable and basically just flipping the roles to fit the setting. Makes sense being one of the core themes of tWoT is reversing gender power roles.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:12
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i mean i can get if someone thinks it's being a bit too flippant about the whole thing to some degree wrt certain characters and all that but it all kind of tracks with how abuse victims tend to get treated to whatever amount
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Jun 2, 2020 01:20
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I hate Egwene the most. Sure, Elayne is objectively the worst. No argument there. But at least she's always around Birgitte and Aviendha, and the Aiel Wise Ones, and Dyelin. Egwene, while less terrible, has a worse supporting cast and she has that "proves her worthiness for the Amyrlin Seat because she can withstand repeated spankings" bullshit going on and I just can't loving stand her.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:27
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:
From author interviews that was the intent, at least, to the extent that such matters, mostly in an attempt to defuse the later Tylin situation.
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Jun 2, 2020 02:07
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The other thing is that Mat ends up marrying a dominatrix, and a lot of their interactions involve her trying to assert control over him only for him to slip out. Maybe Jordan just liked using Mat to depict that particular kink that he had?
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Jun 2, 2020 03:06
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The whole series is his kink fantasies. Imagine if he went with the adult version.
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Jun 2, 2020 03:13
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Johnny Joestar posted:i mean i can get if someone thinks it's being a bit too flippant about the whole thing to some degree wrt certain characters and all that but it all kind of tracks with how abuse victims tend to get treated to whatever amount That was always my take. People talk about the text being light on it—and it's been years for me so I don't actually remember the tone—but what I remember is a character being abused and everyone around him minimizing and invalidating that abuse, which is exactly something that happens to abuse victims.
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Jun 2, 2020 03:35
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Khizan posted:I hate Egwene the most. Despite all their flaws Egwene and Elayne both have one big thing going for them: They're not Gawyn
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Jun 2, 2020 04:13
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bloom posted:Despite all their flaws Egwene and Elayne both have one big thing going for them: true, but if you rearrange gawyn you get agwyn which is basically egwene checkmate
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Jun 2, 2020 04:18
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bloom posted:Despite all their flaws Egwene and Elayne both have one big thing going for them: Gawyn is a big part of why Egwene is my least favorite.
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Jun 2, 2020 04:24
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Mat’s sections of The Shadow Rising are so good. It’s like this clip, but the chores are all the battles to fight before he can run away. https://youtu.be/AbSehcT19u0
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Jun 2, 2020 05:04
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Speaking of Egwene and Gawyn, there's that bit in Lord of Chaos (ch.14) where she gets sucked into his dreams and keeps trying, and failing, to escape, until she just gives in and stays there the rest of the night. Thing is, she seems more and more affectionate towards them each time she fails to escape, and the Wise Ones did warn her that if you got caught in a person's dreams they could remake you if you stayed too long. Am I the only one who thinks that Egwene's love for Gawyn is entirely because she failed to heed the Wise Ones and got warped by Gawyn's dreams about her into a woman who actually loved him?
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Jun 2, 2020 05:53
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uhhhh, that's certainly a theory i hadn't heard before, i can't speak to anyone else though
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Jun 2, 2020 06:17
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jng2058 posted:Speaking of Egwene and Gawyn, there's that bit in Lord of Chaos (ch.14) where she gets sucked into his dreams and keeps trying, and failing, to escape, until she just gives in and stays there the rest of the night. Thing is, she seems more and more affectionate towards them each time she fails to escape, and the Wise Ones did warn her that if you got caught in a person's dreams they could remake you if you stayed too long. yeah everyone else just thinks they were getting mad rutty
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Jun 2, 2020 09:25
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Remind me; did they cast Elayne yet?
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Jun 2, 2020 12:01
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I thought it was funny that after Egwene finally becomes the Amyrlin Seat, she basically starts doing all the things that she'd criticised Rand for doing as a leader, and becomes absolutely full of herself.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:22
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The Lord Bude posted:Remind me; did they cast Elayne yet? I should think they must have, but theres been no announcement.
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Jun 2, 2020 13:15
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Egwene knows Gawyn for about two seconds before going off to galavant with Wise Ones, so of course they are soulmates. I think the only relationship that makes any fuckin sense in these books is Perrin’s. Possibly Min’s.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:20
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Invalid Validation posted:Egwene knows Gawyn for about two seconds before going off to galavant with Wise Ones, so of course they are soulmates. I think the only relationship that makes any fuckin sense in these books is Perrin’s. Possibly Min’s. Min is weird, because she speaks about two sentences to Rand, then the next time they meet literally crawls in bed with him. But in between those two events are months spent pondering the knowledge that she would, eventually, get in bed with him. Min is just weird, in general, and kind of horrifying in the abstract. Rand/Aviendha and Perrin/Faile are the only relationships in the book that really have the time to grow organically without any weird fate shenanigans.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:46
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Invalid Validation posted:Egwene knows Gawyn for about two seconds before going off to galavant with Wise Ones, so of course they are soulmates. I think the only relationship that makes any fuckin sense in these books is Perrin’s. Possibly Min’s. Eh, they knew each other for several months at the Tower. Remember they bury some pretty large time skips in the first few books between the travel stones and time passing off screen between books. Also they're horny kids who are like 19-21 when the series ends. Falling deeply in love with an idiot is par for the course.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:47
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and i mean, it's love, there isn't some progress bar of required time together that's needed for that to occur. it's always going to be a bit outside the realm of logic
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Jun 2, 2020 14:50
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Is it consensual if prophecy says you’re gonna bone?
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Jun 2, 2020 14:58
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Invalid Validation posted:Is it consensual if prophecy says you’re gonna bone? that hurt my brain a little
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Jun 2, 2020 15:07
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Just got to the part where Nynaeve heals stilling. God, the Aes Sedai are just totally insufferable, aren't they? It's amazing to think how many problems they face throughout the series that could be solved if for one second any single one of them would just stop being absolute assholes to literally everyone.
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Jun 2, 2020 15:09
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Just got to the part where Nynaeve heals stilling. *points helplessly around*
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Jun 2, 2020 15:19
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Just got to the part where Nynaeve heals stilling. I've posted it before, and I'll post it again, everything in the series could be solved by people just sitting down in a group therapy and being honest with each other. It's practically a premise of the series until Sanders takes over.
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Jun 2, 2020 17:37
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a small detail i constantly enjoy is the fact that two rivers bows are apparently loving monstrous and i can imagine one of them splitting through a dude's armor easily
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Jun 2, 2020 17:45
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One of my favourite little details is that there's a song called 'Only one bucket of water' which just sounds jolly as hell
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Jun 2, 2020 18:00
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Khizan posted:Gawyn is a big part of why Egwene is my least favorite. I've been on and off listening to the wot spoilers podcast linked near the beginning of this thread and an interesting idea they float is that Jordan's original plan was to have Egwene hook up with Galad rather than Gawyn. Would have made for a better relationship imho. Gawyn is just the worst Johnny Joestar posted:a small detail i constantly enjoy is the fact that two rivers bows are apparently loving monstrous and i can imagine one of them splitting through a dude's armor easily The gently caress do they hunt in the Two Rivers anyway? They have insanely powerful long bows despite not having been involved in a war since Manetheren days. Pretty sure Eye of the World mentions that bears are fairly rare so the bows are serious overkill for whatever they usually shoot.
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Jun 2, 2020 18:23
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Sheep poachers
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Jun 2, 2020 18:27
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imagine trying to be the person telling everyone with bows that are taller than they are that maybe they don't need those bows that are taller than they are anymore
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Jun 2, 2020 18:28
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I like by the end they have canons and fast loading crossbows and they’re like, who needs training? Just fire a million crossbow bolts and be done with it.
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Jun 2, 2020 18:37
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bloom posted:I've been on and off listening to the wot spoilers podcast linked near the beginning of this thread and an interesting idea they float is that Jordan's original plan was to have Egwene hook up with Galad rather than Gawyn. Would have made for a better relationship imho. Gawyn: betrays his country for the Tower, betrays the Tower for a woman, betrays the woman for futile pride.
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Jun 2, 2020 18:42
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Johnny Joestar posted:imagine trying to be the person telling everyone with bows that are taller than they are that maybe they don't need those bows that are taller than they are anymore I liked the bit in The Great Hunt where some shienarans mock Rand's bow like "dude are you gonna hunt rabbits by hitting them over the head with that giant club?"
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Jun 2, 2020 18:58
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