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Safety Biscuits posted:Unless I'm missing something, they're all meant to be. The bit about council lords on the White House lawn is from a Lin Carter book, iirc, and he's not anyone you'd hold up as a good writer. I mean the bits from Tolkien and whoever the other writers were, who she holds up as master stylists. Personally, I wouldn’t say Tolkein’s style was his strongest point. He certainly did not “slide into metrical poetry, as in the Tom Bombadil episode, without the careless readers even noticing” - I think we can say for sure that everyone noticed the Tom Bombadil section!
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Jun 17, 2020 19:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Yeah, Clarke is so good. I finished re-reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell a week or so ago and now I'm reading The Ladies of Grace Adieu. I picked up a more typical fantasy book recently called "Cold Iron" and every so often I have to switch back to Grace Adieu to remember what someone who really understands prose writes like. Clarke totally mastered making her "magic system" for Strange and Norrell both mysterious and comprehensible. We understand that magic is something that can be studied and appears to have rules, and her characters run through some of the logic of their spells as they do them, but its all just vague enough and with the intimation that there are far greater depths than they have begun to stumble upon.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm aware of a grand total of two authors of historical fiction* who have ever managed to write I agree it's rare to see both combined, but perhaps Cadfael (Ellis Peters) is another exception?
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Jun 17, 2020 21:25
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So was John Norman an irl sex pest or did he just write volumes and volumes of shameful, cringey, problematic kink?
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Jun 17, 2020 21:54
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Clark Nova posted:So was John Norman an irl sex pest or did he just write volumes and volumes of shameful, cringey, problematic kink? I can't say I've ever seen any stories about Norman behaving badly in real life. In fact, everything I heard about him suggests he was rather confused by the idea of people trying to do Gorean-style kink in the real world (or Second Life, or wherever). This interview of Norman by Charlie Jane Anders is pretty interesting: quote:I know nothing about "real-life Gorean slavery among some people in the BDSM community." The "BDSM" reference worries me. I dissociate myself from BDSM, at least as I understand it. I may, of course, misunderstand it. I wonder if one would settle merely for "real-life Gorean slavery," because, as I understand it, BDSM is not Gorean. If something is not beautiful, it is not Gorean.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:(Even Tolkien shifts about ; Hobbiton is in the 18th century, Rohan the 6th, Gondor the 1st). Small point, but I think Tolkien did this on purpose as he specifically chose a specific real-world translation for each language/culture he created. If anything it's an example of an author writing in multiple historical-period voices simultaneously.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:44
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The Mirror Empire (Worldbreaker Saga #1) by Kameron Hurley - $0.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IQQUYVK/ Hollywood Dead (Sandman Slim #10) by Richard Kadrey - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074SJ3MN9/ Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C Clarke - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XD75HGV/ Hull Zero Three by Greg Bear - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003YFIV5Y/
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Jun 17, 2020 23:10
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I think Norman is still alive, for what it's worth. Also I read the first handful of Gor books and they start off as serviceable Burroughs pastiche that slowly cranks up the weird sex philosophy stuff. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 00:21
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I once read an analysis someone wrote of one of the later Gor books...I think maybe book 23? Anyway, the ratio of Plot to Kinky Sex was like 1:10 at that point.  That said, all I've ever heard of Norman in his regular life is that he's been happily married for decades, so presumably he just used the Gor books as an outlet for his personal sexual demons. That and to get paid, since those books were surprisingly popular for a decade or two. 
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Jun 18, 2020 01:47
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Ccs posted:Yeah, Clarke is so good. I finished re-reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell a week or so ago and now I'm reading The Ladies of Grace Adieu. If you've not seen it, the BBC did a 7 part adaptation of it that's pretty good. Takes a couple of episodes to get going but I really enjoyed it.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:19
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quantumfoam posted:No. The funniest thing about John Norman is the "Gorean subculture" wikipedia page which I'm not linking to because it contains NSFW images. I knew some goths back in the 90s who had a gorean relationship. It wasn't till years later I thought about it. Vomit.
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Jun 18, 2020 10:37
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branedotorg posted:I knew some goths back in the 90s who had a gorean relationship. AKA "GORths".
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Jun 18, 2020 12:15
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Before I throw down money to order Dragonbone Chair, someone answer me this: how is the author's Otherland series as a sample of his writing style/feel? Because I've got book one of that on hand and I've never read it. I'm really in the mood for vanilla fantasy adventure so Dragonbone sounds great, but, well, trying to save money for the steam sale. (Also I bought a Barbara Hambly lot, Black Lamb & Grey Falcon and a book on Napoleon so I've spent my book money this month, aha)
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Jun 18, 2020 14:49
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StrixNebulosa posted:Before I throw down money to order Dragonbone Chair, someone answer me this: how is the author's Otherland series as a sample of his writing style/feel? Because I've got book one of that on hand and I've never read it. I'm really in the mood for vanilla fantasy adventure so Dragonbone sounds great, but, well, trying to save money for the steam sale. (Also I bought a Barbara Hambly lot, Black Lamb & Grey Falcon and a book on Napoleon so I've spent my book money this month, aha) If you got more vanilla than Tad Williams, you'd be, like, the complete absence of ice cream. Or Dennis McKiernan.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:58
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Selachian posted:If you got more vanilla than Tad Williams, you'd be, like, the complete absence of ice cream. Or Dennis McKiernan. Not even a vanilla bean. Just a bottle of vanilla extract.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:01
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The Gor thing became an SA meme (at least in LF) in like 2007 when someone found some Gorean website audio file that said something like "Welcome... to the world of Gor!" *whipcrack noise*.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:05
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a foolish pianist posted:The Gor thing became an SA meme (at least in LF) in like 2007 when someone found some Gorean website audio file that said something like "Welcome... to the world of Gor!" *whipcrack noise*. I can’t think about Gor without thinking of Outlaw of Gor, which had Jack Palance in it and was hysterical when it got the MST3k treatment. Truly a special movie.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:10
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The only question I have (and this applies for James E Gunn being a college professor & James E Gunn's KAMPUS too) is: Did John Frederick Lange Jr the college professor aka John Norman give higher or lower grades to students that quoted Gorean philosophy in term papers? quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 15:28
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a foolish pianist posted:The Gor thing became an SA meme (at least in LF) in like 2007 when someone found some Gorean website audio file that said something like "Welcome... to the world of Gor!" *whipcrack noise*. https://www.dropbox.com/s/75o61d27clvb0xe/WORLD%20CALLED%20GOR%20%5Bgor-address%5D.wav?dl=0 That was a legendary LF thread.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:28
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Selachian posted:If you got more vanilla than Tad Williams, you'd be, like, the complete absence of ice cream. Or Dennis McKiernan. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Not even a vanilla bean. Just a bottle of vanilla extract. I laughed at this, but it doesn't answer my question about Otherland.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:39
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StrixNebulosa posted:I laughed at this, but it doesn't answer my question about Otherland. there's literally no affirmative reason to read the MST series so if money is a concern just don't order it. you are missing nothing. otherland is no better or worse than any other tad williams. all water is equally wet
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Jun 18, 2020 15:45
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Walh Hara posted:I agree it's rare to see both combined, but perhaps Cadfael (Ellis Peters) is another exception? Possibly but I haven't read them yet, been on my list for a long time. Not even Umberto Eco really manages the "monk detective" thing right though -- William of Baskerville is a little too perfect, you suspend your disbelief. Ornamented Death posted:I think Norman is still alive, for what it's worth. Why do the worst copycats always do this kind of poo poo? See also: Terry Goodkind hannibal posted:Small point, but I think Tolkien did this on purpose as he specifically chose a specific real-world translation for each language/culture he created. If anything it's an example of an author writing in multiple historical-period voices simultaneously. Oh absolutely -- he was basically moving back in time through English history -- but if you step back and look at the setting as a whole it can kinda stretch credulity. Stil, though, yeah, Tolkien knew what he was doing, he just wasn't really trying to achieve the thing I'm talking about. His characters aren't modern psychologically realistic individuals, they're archetypes drawn out of sagas, deliberately. StrixNebulosa posted:I laughed at this, but it doesn't answer my question about Otherland. Sorry, I got no idea, I've only been able to finish one or two Tad Williams books and they were so generic I don't remember a drat thing about them. Probably great if that's what you want. I'd still say read Prydain if you want that kind of thing though, just better executed all around and with more real flavor.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:48
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What about Flashman?
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Jun 18, 2020 16:08
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If you want a sample of Tad Williams, Otherland is as good a place as any to start. I did find it a bit more innovative than his other work, but that's relatively speaking. I try not to be too rude about Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, because I have a friend who thinks it's the awesomest fantasy series ever. My favorite Williams is still his first book, Tailchaser's Song, which is a weird mashup of Tolkien and Watership Down with feral cats instead of rabbits.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:09
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I haven't read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (though I have the first book and have been "saving" it for when I need a mental break from the world) but it is always kind of surprising to me when I meet someone whose favorite fantasy novels are that, or the Belgariad, or the Riftwar books. I feel like in those cases it's usually at least half nostalgia. I'd agree that Chronicles of Prydain are great books for a sort of "cozy fantasy" itch, and they are at least a little unique even in the world of fairly generic fantasy, given that they're rooted in Welsh legends and mythology that don't get a ton of play in fantasy novels. Plus one of the main characters is a pig that can tell the future. They'd probably qualify as YA novels if they were written today, but I don't think that's a knock against them per se.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:15
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Walh Hara posted:I agree it's rare to see both combined, but perhaps Cadfael (Ellis Peters) is another exception? Cadfael definitely manages it. I've read 15 or so of the books and they're very good. Cadfael is a very interesting character - a former Crusader who took the cloth in his middle age and became a herbalist - so while he's a cloistered monk he also has a broad knowledge of people from having been part of the world. The TV adaptations with Derek Jacobi are well worth watching too.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:18
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buffalo all day posted:there's literally no affirmative reason to read the MST series so if money is a concern just don't order it. you are missing nothing. otherland is no better or worse than any other tad williams. all water is equally wet That's actually reassuring, thank you. I'm enjoying the little I've read of Otherland so far, and if he's consistent that's good to hear. Also, lmao at tor.com: Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn is the Natural Successor to Game of Thrones
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Jun 18, 2020 16:24
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Jedit posted:Cadfael definitely manages it. I've read 15 or so of the books and they're very good. Cadfael is a very interesting character - a former Crusader who took the cloth in his middle age and became a herbalist - so while he's a cloistered monk he also has a broad knowledge of people from having been part of the world. The TV adaptations with Derek Jacobi are well worth watching too. I just read the first book in that series and I'm a little mixed on it. How is it as an example of the series in general? I liked the setting, I liked Cadfael as a character, but it felt like the pacing of the book was pretty slow (though I guess probably not abnormal for when it was published). I think the problem may be that I went in expecting "normal" mystery novel pacing and was surprised by how long it took for the mystery itself to get going.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:26
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StrixNebulosa posted:That's actually reassuring, thank you. I'm enjoying the little I've read of Otherland so far, and if he's consistent that's good to hear. Dear Tor.com, What if the next prestige fantasy TV series wasn't based on yet another bland, uninspired white guy fantasy novel? I got more than my fill of that with GoT. Sincerely, A Bland White Guy
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Jun 18, 2020 16:29
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I don't like how streaming services are going backwards in time from Martin for their adaptions. Wheel of Time, another LotR, another Ghormenghast. I don't want to see any of that.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:49
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MockingQuantum posted:I just read the first book in that series and I'm a little mixed on it. How is it as an example of the series in general? I liked the setting, I liked Cadfael as a character, but it felt like the pacing of the book was pretty slow (though I guess probably not abnormal for when it was published). I think the problem may be that I went in expecting "normal" mystery novel pacing and was surprised by how long it took for the mystery itself to get going. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 16:56
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Collateral posted:What about Flashman? Realistic but not sympathetic.
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Jun 18, 2020 18:06
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StrixNebulosa posted:Before I throw down money to order Dragonbone Chair, someone answer me this: how is the author's Otherland series as a sample of his writing style/feel? Because I've got book one of that on hand and I've never read it. I'm really in the mood for vanilla fantasy adventure so Dragonbone sounds great, but, well, trying to save money for the steam sale. (Also I bought a Barbara Hambly lot, Black Lamb & Grey Falcon and a book on Napoleon so I've spent my book money this month, aha) I think Otherland is a good sample of his writing style, and particular his pacing. I think the MSaT is neat, but it's quite a journey for the ending you get to. There's good character development and description along the way, but the books are long, and they only follow a couple characters, so in a sense not as much happens. There's a novel set in between the MSaT, which is a 4 book trilogy, and the next trilogy, and the pacing in that is much more exciting, but if you read that it'll give away quite a bit of the end of MSaT. I actually bought the first book of the new trilogy, and everytime I go to pick it up I just feel this sense of weight and like I don't want to trudge through it to get to the ending. The Shadowland series is the same, it's just too long. They are quite vanilla though. I would definitely not buy more than just The Dragonbone Chair if you decide to go forward on this mixed endorsement, and see if you can deal with it, before investing in the other 3 books.
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Jun 18, 2020 18:38
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MockingQuantum posted:I just read the first book in that series and I'm a little mixed on it. How is it as an example of the series in general? I liked the setting, I liked Cadfael as a character, but it felt like the pacing of the book was pretty slow (though I guess probably not abnormal for when it was published). I think the problem may be that I went in expecting "normal" mystery novel pacing and was surprised by how long it took for the mystery itself to get going. One Corpse Too Many is definitely quicker off the mark than A Morbid Taste For Bones, if that's what you want. The first novel is also the most directly historical, having been inspired by the real Prior Robert Pennant's chronicle of the translation of Saint Winifred. Other books in the series use historical events more as a backdrop or a plot catalyst than as a narrative frame.
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Jun 18, 2020 18:51
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MockingQuantum posted:Dear Tor.com, Give me the TV version of Fifth Season
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Jun 18, 2020 19:02
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Cardiac posted:Give me the TV version of Fifth Season Is that going anywhere, or stuck in development hell? Would quite like some more fantasy media that's not yet another drat version of medieval Europe, thanks.
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Jun 18, 2020 20:32
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Im looking forward to the Binti adaptation.
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Jun 18, 2020 20:44
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Groke posted:Is that going anywhere, or stuck in development hell? Would quite like some more fantasy media that's not yet another drat version of medieval Europe, thanks. i was going to ask, it's been like over a year since I heard anything about it.
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Jun 18, 2020 21:43
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uber_stoat posted:i was going to ask, it's been like over a year since I heard anything about it. The common wisdom is to not get your hopes up until principal photography starts. Books and series are constantly being optioned; you can see how many actually get made.
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Jun 18, 2020 21:49
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Since I'm in the mood to talk about what I'm reading and I already made a Webnovel post about the stuff that's lowering my standards, here's what I'm reading in physical form: Illuminae Files Book 1: 164 pages into this and it's surprisingly fun for something that's mostly chat logs. It's a found footage sci-fi YA book about a pair of teenagers caught up in Battlestar Galactica: they lived on an illegal mining colony, then a megacorp bombed it and dropped a virus on it, and the only local government ship evacuated them with two research vessels. The problem is: everyone's warp drive is busted so it'll take months to get to any help, they're still being chased, and there's a virus on board. Oh and there's conspiracy everywhere. One teenager becomes a dogfighter pilot and the other becomes a hacker and they try to get to the bottom of things while dealing with their families being dead. I think my favorite thing about the found footage style is that it's making me work my brain and imagine what's happening - and it's a lot more vivid and interesting than if they wrote it in a conventional way. I appreciate that, even if I don't want to read everything in that style. Point of Hopes: Very early into this one but I enjoy a classic mystery in a fantasy setting. Local "pointsman" (he's a cop) is tapped to find out why children are missing. There's also jockeying about putting someone new on the throne and there's a big yearly festival coming up. Dun dun dun. I like the prose, the description of the setting, and I REALLY love how people can be gay and it's mostly okay. The cop's all "did the missing girl have a boyfriend? or a leman? (fancy word for lesbians, I believe)" and yes she did, and there's a sad girlfriend who wants her partner back. Otherland: The prose is solid, good but not great, and I'm digging the future setting - when's the last time you read a sci-fi book set in Africa? I'm going to chip at this. It being insanely long isn't a bad thing because boy do I need distractions right now. Hundred Years War: Trial by Battle: Insanely good, insanely dense. My reading goal for this thing is ten pages a day and let me tell you that's an accomplishment with how info-packed it is. Really good writing tho, it's not boring at all. Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: Fascinating, but frustrating. A book about visiting Yugoslavia right before WWII, written by a British lady. Her history is interesting and the way she makes sweeping generalizations about random European groups based on meeting like 5 of them is hilariously arrogant. The prose is enthralling though, and I'm enjoying giving it some time every evening. ...and some other stuff that's been left on the side as I focus on Illuminae and Trial by Battle primarily. Then whenever my folks watch TV or I play video games I swap to web novels and enjoy how.... I don't have a good adjective. I enjoy them. They are not good. Sometimes the translation is actually good but not really. It really helps make everything else read like it's the best stuff in the entire world by comparison. e: Added one more because I love it so StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 21:59
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