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Of course Amuro can use the Mobile Trace System. After all, was he not one of the many Gundam Fighters who launched up into space to aid in the fight against the Devil Gundam?
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Jun 23, 2020 09:21
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now I'm imagining Amuro somehow working the Axis shock into his repertoire for the theoretical fighting game.
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Jun 23, 2020 09:59
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Omnicrom posted:It really is a matter of degrees. Char was introduced in the original series by having I think Paolo go "A red mobile suit? Oh poo poo, that's the Red Comet! That's the guy who kicked a ridiculous amount of rear end at the Battle of Loum and everyone knows and fears him!" and then we see for ourselves it's not just talk when Char's Zaku beats up the Gundam. And we see that reinforced for Char's first run as the on the ground main villain because the series spends its scenes pointed at the antagonists getting across in no uncertain terms that Char is an extremely scary multi-talented dude and furthermore that he's kind of a treacherous bastard what with all the time he spends standing behind Garma sharpening a dagger. I think the bigger thing the original show does to help build Char up as a threat is less as a pilot, and more the fact he can accurately predict how everyone, the White Base staff included, will react to various circumstances and manipulate them to his own ends in unexpected plans. He realizes that the staff of Luna II only really expect full frontal (har har) attacks for instance, and that they'd be vulnerable to an attack by a small crew of people sneaking inside, then uses that to cripple their response by lining the main exit in mines, so when they do leave to attack his ship, the block the exit. Or when he pushes the White Base off course during the atmospheric entry, so they have to land in Zeon territory, rather than Federation territory. He's a really good commander during the first 1/3rd or so of the show, and while he can push the Gundam as a pilot, I'd think he's more scary as someone that can read and influence people. It's less of a concern by the time he comes back in to the show, because he's so focused on the Gundam. Kanos posted:I think Char being involved in that uprising was actually the best used instance of Char being involved in every little thing about the OYW, honestly. The setup of his weird manipulative frenemy relationship with Garma was very good and adds a lot of background to Garma's eventual betrayal/demise. It also helps sell the troops and people loving Garma as much as they did, because it gives him a massive concrete success beyond "is a Zabi". The troops don't love Garma in the original show/movie, and even Ral barely mentions him beyond stating that he's arrived to get revenge for Garma once at the start of the arc. Which seems to just be a statement of his orders, rather than any personal statement. The only people we see who love Garma in the original are the fawning women at the soiree he holds, not any of his troops. Garma says he wants the respect of his troops on his own merits, rather than because he's a Zabi, but there isn't any indication he really had it. Which isn't to say that love didn't exist, I guess, but if it did, it wasn't established in the original show/movies and I'd say even runs kind of counter to the show's apparent point that Garma is, as Char said, a "spoiled kid"; someone who was more worried about personal image than leading, as such. He was acting for his father's love, for his sister's approval and for his men's respect rather than because of any personal investment in the war or even desire to lead as such. Gripweed posted:Let's be honest, Char was already canonically at every major MS battle, fought the Gundam multiple times, had a specially made MS just for him which he flew at the final battle of the war, was heavily involved in the Newtype program, was romantically involved with the first Newtype pilot and there when she died, was the best friend of one of the Zabi children, was directly responsible for the deaths of two of the Zabis including the leader of the Duchy of Zeon at the final battle of the war, and also was the secret son of Zeon himself and the secret brother of a woman who was bridge crew on the White Base. Char wasn't involved in every major mobile suit battle, and if you look solely at the events of the show/movies, he was only involved in 1 of the 3 major battles during their runtime. We see bigger battles at Odessa, Solomon and A Baoa Qu, and Char wasn't present at either Odessa or Solomon. Odessa wasn't a major mobile suit battle during the show, since there were only 2 mobile suits there on the Federation's side (Gundam and Guncannon) and we only see the Black Tri-Stars there on Zeon's side too (two during the show, 3 during the movie), but it's been retconned to have more mobile suits on both sides in various supplementary material. You could view Jaburo as a major battle I suppose, but that's still only 2 of 4, and I wouldn't count it as one personally since it was just Char leading a small team to try and infiltrate the base. The Zeong also wasn't made for Char, and no-one was even sure whether he was actually a Newtype until A Baoa Qu itself. Kycilia presumably suspected it, but even Char entered the battle wondering if he was actually one. The Zeong was a Newtype machine, but there was no designated pilot, and it just appears to have been another prototype machine Zeon had built in the hopes of finding a way to turn the tide. I'd also say the phrase "Newtype Corps" is kind of overblown, considering it was just Char and Lalah. Challia was a Newtype too, but Gihren sent him, rather than Kycilia, and he wasn't actually under Char's command. Yeah, Char was involved in a lot of events during the show/movies, but he wasn't so central to some of them that it'd be impossible to imagine them without him or anything. ImpAtom posted:Char would lose because in physical terms he couldn't even win a swordfight against an untrained boy who barely left his room prior to becoming a pilot. The reason Char lost was because Amuro was a Newtype, and was able to predict Char's movements and respond accordingly despite the lack of training. When they're fighting Char asks if Amuro knows why he lured him there, and Amuro responds that it's because Char thinks that even a Newtype will need training to use something like a sword, which Char says is correct. Amuro says it's only a theory, and his statement is borne out, because Amuro is able to push Char during the duel and in the end nearly kills Char with a strike to the head while Char only hits Amuro in the shoulder. tsob fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 10:11
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Gripweed posted:Let's be honest, Char was already canonically at every major MS battle, fought the Gundam multiple times, had a specially made MS just for him which he flew at the final battle of the war, was heavily involved in the Newtype program, was romantically involved with the first Newtype pilot and there when she died, was the best friend of one of the Zabi children, was directly responsible for the deaths of two of the Zabis including the leader of the Duchy of Zeon at the final battle of the war, and also was the secret son of Zeon himself and the secret brother of a woman who was bridge crew on the White Base. Char wasn't at Solomon or Odessa, two huge battles in the OYW. So no, canonically, he wasn't at every major MS battle.
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Jun 23, 2020 10:35
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super-redguy posted:Of course Amuro can use the Mobile Trace System. After all, was he not one of the many Gundam Fighters who launched up into space to aid in the fight against the Devil Gundam?
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Jun 23, 2020 12:52
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Endorph posted:my favorite mobile fighter g gundam character, heero I mean, given how much the Wing/Zero are passed around, that could be pretty much anyone from Wing.
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Jun 23, 2020 13:23
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tsob posted:I mean, given how much the Wing/Zero are passed around, that could be pretty much anyone from Wing.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:00
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There are a few series where it makes sense, such as G and 00, where the machines are custom built to suit specific people and I'd argue it at least makes some degree of sense in a few others, like 0079, where initially the White Base is so short handed that Amuro is pushed to be the Gundam pilot just because even 5 minutes experience without dying is more experience than anyone else alive and they eventually think about pulling him off for narrative reasons but it never gets around to it for further narrative reasons before everyone realizes that Amuro is good enough that it'd be a waste putting anyone else in the unit. Generally though, yeah, it does seem more reasonable that piloting duties should be a bit more adhoc and that the machines should be treated as generic machines and not intrinsically tied to one particular person. I do think Wing tended to go a little overboard with it, in that the units named characters got in tended to have a sudden rash of invincibility even if they were made of explodium up to that point, but the cast playing musical Gundams was fun regardless.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:12
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IBO would be the most obvious example of Gundams being personal for a reason.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:32
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It is? I don't recall anything in IBO that tied the unit to specific pilots. Only some people could use Alaya-Vijnana units, but there was nothing beyond that so far as I recall, and any person with the nanomachine interface could use any Alaya-Vinjana equipped unit. The only one that might have been pilot specific so far as I recall was the Kimaris, since the Ein inhabited computer might have rejected some pilots (say, if Mika tried to use it). The Gjallarhorn Gundams were tied to some families through custom, but that's about it. It would make narrative sense to some degree, sure, but I wouldn't say it was the immediate one to leap to mind over G for tying specific pilots to specific units.
tsob fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 15:33
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tsob posted:It is? I don't recall anything in IBO that tied the unit to specific pilots. Only some people could use Alaya-Vijnana units, but there was nothing beyond that so far as I recall, and any person with the nanomachine interface could use any Alaya-Vinjana equipped unit. The only one that might have been pilot specific so far as I recall was the Kimaris, since the Ein inhabited computer might have rejected some pilots (say, if Mika tried to use it). The Gjallarhorn Gundams were tied to some families through custom, but that's about it. It would make narrative sense to some degree, sure, but I wouldn't say it was the immediate one to leap to mind over G for tying specific pilots to specific units. The Gundams specifically required the user to have more than one whisker, trying with only one would only get you knocked out (as Dante helpfully showed). That basically meant that most of Tekkadan would not be able to properly pilot a Gundam, and Mika was always going to be the best choice since he's the only one insane enough to go for the operation three times.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:57
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Blaze Dragon posted:The Gundams specifically required the user to have more than one whisker, trying with only one would only get you knocked out (as Dante helpfully showed). That basically meant that most of Tekkadan would not be able to properly pilot a Gundam, and Mika was always going to be the best choice since he's the only one insane enough to go for the operation three times. Didn't Shino only have it once? And Akihiro twice? Mika could get the most out of a Gundam, since his triple surgery meant he could channel the broadest amount of information at one time, but there were multiple Gundams piloted by multiple people with AV surgery. Barbatos suited Mika more because of his temperament and fighting style than because of the AV surgery, and there are multiple units he could theoretically have piloted and multiple people that could theoretically have piloted the Barbatos.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:05
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The Gundams were specifically customised to serve as extensions of their pilots' bodies according to their personal specifications. It'd be a real nightmare for a new Gusion Rebake pilot to adjust to suddenly having four super-strong arms, for instance.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:21
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Darth Walrus posted:The Gundams were specifically customised to serve as extensions of their pilots' bodies according to their personal specifications. It'd be a real nightmare for a new Gusion Rebake pilot to adjust to suddenly having four super-strong arms, for instance. That logic pretty much applies to any custom unit though. Anyone can use it, they just might take a lot of time to master it.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:30
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tsob posted:The troops don't love Garma in the original show/movie, and even Ral barely mentions him beyond stating that he's arrived to get revenge for Garma once at the start of the arc. Which seems to just be a statement of his orders, rather than any personal statement. The only people we see who love Garma in the original are the fawning women at the soiree he holds, not any of his troops. Garma says he wants the respect of his troops on his own merits, rather than because he's a Zabi, but there isn't any indication he really had it. Which isn't to say that love didn't exist, I guess, but if it did, it wasn't established in the original show/movies and I'd say even runs kind of counter to the show's apparent point that Garma is, as Char said, a "spoiled kid"; someone who was more worried about personal image than leading, as such. He was acting for his father's love, for his sister's approval and for his men's respect rather than because of any personal investment in the war or even desire to lead as such. The original show doesn't really devote any time to the topic because the original show doesn't really give us any picture of Zeon's rank and file beyond little vignettes like the soldiers dropping off aid packages before getting smoked, and the movie compilations have even less time for that kind of stuff. Char's opinions on Garma are obviously just a *little bit* tainted - Garma's pursuit of the White Base is honestly very competent and nearly successful on at least one occasion before his final battle where he is completely hosed over and sold out by Char to no fault of his own. The only indicator he's more worried about personal image than leading is the fact that he opts for a last ditch suicide run rather than a retreat or a surrender - a choice he makes when almost his entire force is already dead, and a choice he's hardly alone in making when it comes to Zeon commanders. In the Origin itself, it's impossible to make the argument that the troops and people don't love Garma, because the entire point of the Dawn Rebellion is Char leveraging Garma's massive popularity among the cadets to get an outcome that he wants.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:17
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Kanos posted:The original show doesn't really devote any time to the topic because the original show doesn't really give us any picture of Zeon's rank and file beyond little vignettes like the soldiers dropping off aid packages before getting smoked, and the movie compilations have even less time for that kind of stuff. Char's opinions on Garma are obviously just a *little bit* tainted - Garma's pursuit of the White Base is honestly very competent and nearly successful on at least one occasion before his final battle where he is completely hosed over and sold out by Char to no fault of his own. The only indicator he's more worried about personal image than leading is the fact that he opts for a last ditch suicide run rather than a retreat or a surrender - a choice he makes when almost his entire force is already dead, and a choice he's hardly alone in making when it comes to Zeon commanders. Garma is only ever really competent or nearly successful even in the original show because Char is by his side to interpret what's happening, and nudge his orders in the right direction. When the White Base send Amuro in the Core Fighter over Zeon airspace to try and get help faster, it's Char who is the one who realizes what is happening immediately and let's Garma know. When the White Base try to hide the Gundam in a deliberately damaged transport plane while dropping off refugees, it is again Char who is able to read the situation and push Garma to react accordingly. Garma has no idea what is happening a lot of the time, and either doesn't know what to do or wants to issue orders with a much more superficial idea of what's happening that wouldn't actually be that useful in that specific situation. Char isn't even planning on killing Garma originally, and only realizes he can make use of the White Base and Gundam to do so after an episode or two. We know Garma is more worried about personal things than the war for more reasons than the fact he opted for a suicide run though, which he didn't really have a choice about anyway, because his Gaw had been damaged and was going down regardless of his status, while everyone else on board was dead, so the best he could do at that point going by the animation was point where it'd go down to a limited degree. Garma was holding a party while the enemy was creeping through his territory. An enemy that had already evaded his attacks and plans multiple times. He was also apparently more worried about his relationship with the mayor's daughter and whether Kycilia and his men would be impressed by his actions, than whether his actions would be successful. Garma also tells Char at one point that he has to personally lead a mission to impress Kycilia, and then when Char talks about how he doesn't need to get so agitated about the Gundam to impress a girl in the next episode, Garma backs down while his body language implies Char was right in his assessment. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 18:38
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tsob posted:Garma is only ever really competent or nearly successful even in the original show because Char is by his side to interpret what's happening, and nudge his orders in the right direction. When the White Base send Amuro in the Core Fighter over Zeon airspace to try and get help faster, it's Char who is the one who realizes what is happening immediately and let's Garma know. When the White Base try to hide the Gundam in a deliberately damaged transport plane while dropping off refugees, it is again Char who is able to read the situation and push Garma to react accordingly. Garma has no idea what is happening a lot of the time, and either doesn't know what to do or wants to issue orders with a much more superficial idea of what's happening that wouldn't actually be that useful in that specific situation. Char isn't even planning on killing Garma originally, and only realizes he can make use of the White Base and Gundam to do so after an episode or two. "Is a new and untried commander who is willing to take cues and advice from his best friend, the decorated combat veteran and commander who had already fought the opponent in question before" isn't really a criticism of Garma. Being willing to listen to his subordinates and react quickly to that information is a positive trait, not a negative one, and had Char actually been the loyal friend he was believed to be there would have been no problem with the arrangement. You could say "well he was naive and foolish to trust Char to that degree", but that's a criticism that can be applied to, uh, a lot of people. Garma does vain stuff, but my point is that he doesn't really let any of that compromise his command. He holds a party while the White Base is there, but holding the party has no real effect on whether or not they can find and catch the White Base, and schmoozing with the local power structure is a really important part of running an occupation - he's not just a random commander, he's also a nobleman and representative of the Zeon faction as a whole. He's very concerned about taking down the Gundam to get a big win so he can be a hero, but that doesn't really compromise the pursuit at all that I can see in any real way besides "Garma puts himself out there personally when he doesn't technically need to", which is incidentally also a failing of almost every Zeon commander that ever fights the White Base. As for the Gaw suicide run, he had no choice about going down, but he definitely had a choice about trying to ram the thing into the White Base, which is what gets him shot and killed. He literally shoves the still-living pilot out of the seat and turns the thing about 90 degrees from its current crash course to steer it directly at the White Base.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:15
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Kanos posted:You could say "well he was naive and foolish to trust Char to that degree", but that's a criticism that can be applied to, uh, a lot of people. Why? He seems trustworthy to me. 
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Jun 23, 2020 19:25
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gourdcaptain posted:Why? He seems trustworthy to me. i hated Char and loved Quattro. In that episode he also vehemently objected to how Mineva was being used by Haman so I was giving him three cheers for being cool and good. Then he went and said this and reminded me of poor Garma in MSG. Char is a man of contrasts. Of course the interesting thing is...who even is Char? Does he even know? Maybe he was thinking "I'm Quattro now and Quattro never betrayed anybody."
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Jun 23, 2020 19:34
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Ethiser posted:That logic pretty much applies to any custom unit though. Anyone can use it, they just might take a lot of time to master it. I'd say it applies more when the custom unit directly interfaces with the pilot's body. Most suits operate pretty much like fighting game characters, with complex movements simplified into the turn of a stick and the press of a button. A-V suits, meanwhile, turn you into your fighting game character, and we see multiple pilots customising their machines so that they better match what's feasible and comfortable for their particular nervous systems.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:43
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Kanos posted:You could say "well he was naive and foolish to trust Char to that degree", but that's a criticism that can be applied to, uh, a lot of people. It's one thing to take advice; it's another when the other person isn't just giving you advice, but giving you an accurate assessment of the situation along with appropriate counter proposals that you follow to the letter. At that point Garma isn't a leader taking advice, he's a puppet that has no purpose being where he is even if he has some recognition of that fact himself. Kanos posted:Garma does vain stuff, but my point is that he doesn't really let any of that compromise his command. He holds a party while the White Base is there, but holding the party has no real effect on whether or not they can find and catch the White Base, and schmoozing with the local power structure is a really important part of running an occupation - he's not just a random commander, he's also a nobleman and representative of the Zeon faction as a whole. He's very concerned about taking down the Gundam to get a big win so he can be a hero, but that doesn't really compromise the pursuit at all that I can see in any real way besides "Garma puts himself out there personally when he doesn't technically need to", which is incidentally also a failing of almost every Zeon commander that ever fights the White Base. "The commander of the entire operation, and his best pilot as well as the person who can most accurately predict the enemy are busy with frivolous activities but this is in no way impacting the pursuit of the enemy" is what you're saying? It may not have stopped his men finding the enemy, but that does not mean that they couldn't have been found faster, and when in a more compromising position, rather than one they can leverage to their advantage, if those people had not been occupied. The fact that Garma is so concerned about his own reputation and scoring points with others (be it his father, sister or men) seems to be why he's so quick to action, even when taking a few seconds to assess the situation like Char does might have done him more good. The fact other Zeon command figures are that way too doesn't mean he isn't at fault for that. Kanos posted:As for the Gaw suicide run, he had no choice about going down, but he definitely had a choice about trying to ram the thing into the White Base, which is what gets him shot and killed. He literally shoves the still-living pilot out of the seat and turns the thing about 90 degrees from its current crash course to steer it directly at the White Base. Garma initially orders the pilot to climb out of the line of fire they are under from the rear, and when the pilot tells him that's not possible, that's when Garma orders him to turn around and ram the White Base. The fact they can't climb means the Gaw has already been heavily damaged, and the fact they are under a constant barrage of fire means they were never just going to land safely somewhere else regardless of Garma's wishes. He decides to ram the White Base because it's either die ineffectually or die with some degree of success, regardless of how Pyrrhic. Darth Walrus posted:I'd say it applies more when the custom unit directly interfaces with the pilot's body. Most suits operate pretty much like fighting game characters, with complex movements simplified into the turn of a stick and the press of a button. A-V suits, meanwhile, turn you into your fighting game character, and we see multiple pilots customising their machines so that they better match what's feasible and comfortable for their particular nervous systems. I'd say it applies more when the custom unit is custom built from the ground up to be for one particular pilot of one particular nation, who will always be using that one particular unit because it's a sports tournament and the matches are always going to be arranged with enough time for the pilot to use the designated machine. The Gundam Maxter for instance is Chibodee's unit, built for his preferences using his combat style and there's no reason the Chinese, French, Russian, Italian, Canadian etc. pilot is going to want to use his machine for a match, when the matches are supposed to be representative of their nation even if those pilots wanted to try and use a machine with different specs, weapons and systems than those that suit their fighting style. The mobile trace suit also makes you the fighting game character in a similar manner to AV units, including having a horse piloting a horse mech. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 19:53
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Endorph posted:I do honestly like how much people swap around mechs and pilot stuff besides their assigned gundams in Wing. It's weird to say given everything else about Wing's tone but it feels a bit more like, real? It's very strange that some Gundam series play it like the protagonist gundam emits a forcefield that only the protagonist can get through. ZZ sort of had the same thing going on. To be fair, the ZZ was this huge overly-designed slab of brick that managed to operate as well as it did because Judau was a powerful Newtype. There were a few instances where Roux piloted it and she did fine, but then there's that part where Beecha tries piloting the ZZ and wondering how the hell the thing could even move.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:01
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amigolupus posted:To be fair, the ZZ was this huge overly-designed slab of brick that managed to operate as well as it did because Judau was a powerful Newtype. There were a few instances where Roux piloted it and she did fine, but then there's that part where Beecha tries piloting the ZZ and wondering how the hell the thing could even move. And even then Roux basically states "Why would I want to pilot the ZZ, the Zeta can run circles around it." and is annoyed whenever Judau trades her for the Zeta and she's stuck with the ZZ. Then you get to the Full Armor ZZ, which is too much for even Judau who's reaction upon seeing it is (official BDs): "What's all this crap you've stuck on it?" I do love that all the Gundam Team in ZZ are united in calling the Hyaku Shiki the coolest looking mech they've ever seen.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:09
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I think a major thing with Wing is that the pilots were roughly on equal skill levels. The robots were customized for certain fighting styles so they gravitated towards the ones that worked best for them but there wasn't really a "why are we giving the best robot to anyone else" question.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:09
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tsob posted:Garma initially orders the pilot to climb out of the line of fire they are under from the rear, and when the pilot tells him that's not possible, that's when Garma orders him to turn around and ram the White Base. The fact they can't climb means the Gaw has already been heavily damaged, and the fact they are under a constant barrage of fire means they were never just going to land safely somewhere else regardless of Garma's wishes. He decides to ram the White Base because it's either die ineffectually or die with some degree of success, regardless of how Pyrrhic. You sure about that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgszkRXOPqw&t=447s This is from the Italian dub because that's the easiest to find on youtube for quick reference, but he very clearly consciously shoves the pilot out of the way and forcibly brings the Gaw around in a direct suicide run at the White Base, which in turn leads directly to it taking a ton of additional ground fire(including multiple cannon shots directly under the flight deck). The Gaw is toast, but it's falling slowly enough(and in a completely different direction than the White Base and its ground fire) that Garma is able to change its course by literally 90 degrees to try to ram a distant target - it's entirely possible he could have crash landed the thing and walked away. (Boy, that would have been awkward for Char.)
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Jun 23, 2020 20:17
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Kanos posted:(Boy, that would have been awkward for Char.) I'm pretty sure that is the plot of IBO Season 2.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:24
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ImpAtom posted:I'm pretty sure that is the plot of IBO Season 2. It is, and that's why IBO S2 rules.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:48
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Char clearly has some form of dissociative identity disorder.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:51
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Kanos posted:You sure about that? Yes. https://s1.webmshare.com/40Z9Q.webm https://s1.webmshare.com/t/40Z9Q.jpg Garma's first order is to climb out of the line of fire, and it's only on being told that that's impossible that he decides to turn around and ram the White Base. He doesn't even personally take control of the Gaw until after Char has mocked him, at which point the Gaw has already received so much fire that it's gone in to a steep descent, notably falling further only seconds after he tells the pilot to turn and before there's any noticeable maneuver. The wings also break only a second or two after he has taken control. He was always going to be in a big lumbering cargo/command plane in an open air situation that'd be easy to target him, regardless of if he turned around or dived straight at the White Base. He was never walking out of that plane, no matter where he pointed, and he knew it.The Gaw may not have exploded in mid-air if he hadn't pointed at the White Base, but it was always going to crash regardless of where he pointed it. He ever says that his death won't be in vain, which implicitly acknowledges that, at least as far as he is concerned, he's about to die regardless of his actions.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:34
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tsob posted:Yes. Perhaps the wing broke off because he literally wrenched the thing around 90 degrees to go on a suicide run? The White Base wasn't at all interested in destroying all attackers. They were in the process of trying to leave the area when Garma decided to ram them, and it's entirely possible that if he rode the Gaw down elsewhere it would have been perfectly fine - it's a huge rear end plane in a slow, mostly controlled descent, and even IRL cargo planes are loving rugged, nevermind scifi cargo planes designed to fight in battles that can survive numerous direct cannon hits intact. Taking Garma's word about how "he won't die in vain" as proof that he had no way of survival when we've already discussed the fact that he's a glory hound who wants to be a big hero and he's in the process of being stabbed in the back by his best friend is probably not a good indicator of whether or not he actually had to die there. For someone like Garma, the thought of not only not completing his objective, but also being made to look like an utter fool by someone he loved and trusted was probably a push towards trying to make a big, stupid gesture to redeem what he views as his own failure.
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Jun 23, 2020 22:48
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Kanos posted:Perhaps the wing broke off because he literally wrenched the thing around 90 degrees to go on a suicide run? The White Base wasn't at all interested in destroying all attackers. They were in the process of trying to leave the area when Garma decided to ram them, and it's entirely possible that if he rode the Gaw down elsewhere it would have been perfectly fine - it's a huge rear end plane in a slow, mostly controlled descent, and even IRL cargo planes are loving rugged, nevermind scifi cargo planes designed to fight in battles that can survive numerous direct cannon hits intact. I wasn't taking his word on it's own; I was taking it in conjunction with other things in the animation that make it look like the Gaw was hosed no matter what Garma did. It doesn't remotely look like a controlled descent to me, and it takes a massive lurch downwards almost immediately after Garma realizes that they can't lift out of the way of fire and before anyone can do any kind of manoeuvring. Which does not suggest the Gaw is controlled, or that it was going to be fine if Garma had just piloted from fire instead of towards it. You say the White Base wasn't interested in destroying all attackers, but even putting aside that Amuro frequently fired on enemies who were retreating because he's a soldier and a retreating enemy is still an enemy the entire reason that the crew of the White Base are doing a countdown at the start of that webm is because they're coordinating their timing to concentrate mass fire on the rear of an enemy command ship that may otherwise pass overhead without directly endangering them. They were planning to leave, but they stop and hide when Garma's forces are detected and not when he goes to ram them. After that, they hide in the dome of a stadium with the hope of surprising their would be attackers. They were always going to attack them after that point, because they really have no choice. If they don't go on the offensive, then the enemy will. Also, if the sci-fi plane can survive numerous cannon hits then it probably wasn't going to tear itself apart just from turning. You can't evoke it's strength to dismiss one point, then say it's probably super tough to hold up another one. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 23:05
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tsob posted:I wasn't taking his word on it's own; I was taking it in conjunction with other things in the animation that make it look like the Gaw was hosed no matter what Garma did. It doesn't remotely look like a controlled descent to me, and it takes a massive lurch downwards almost immediately after Garma realizes that they can't lift out of the way of fire and before anyone can do any kind of manoeuvring. Which does not suggest the Gaw is controlled, or that it was going to be fine if Garma had just piloted from fire instead of towards it. You say the White Base wasn't interested in destroying all attackers, but even putting aside that Amuro frequently fired on enemies who were retreating because he's a soldier and a retreating enemy is still an enemy the entire reason that the crew of the White Base are doing a countdown at the start of that webm is because they're coordinating their timing to concentrate mass fire on the rear of an enemy command ship that may otherwise pass overhead without directly endangering them. They were planning to leave, but they stop and hide when Garma's forces are detected and not when he goes to ram them. After that, they hide in the dome of a stadium with the hope of surprising their would be attackers. They were always going to attack them after that point, because they really have no choice. If they don't go on the offensive, then the enemy will. This is getting really tedious because you're assuming that the Gaw was utterly hosed and completely dismissing that Garma literally climbs onto the controls turns the entire thing around in a completely different direction - showing that the descent was slow and controlled - to steer it at the White Base, which is far as hell away from the Gaw, again meaning that the descent is not rapid. With regards to the Gaw's durability, did you know that turning large airframes too rapidly can cause catastrophic, nightmarish damage to the airframe, and that war planes that are designed to survive being hit by ground fire can't actually survive somebody wrenching it into a 90 degree turn in one go, especially when the frame is already damaged(such as by being hit by enough ground fire that it's going down)? Fundamentally, my point is that "can survive a suicide run on an enemy ship that is actively shooting full weapons batteries directly at you while you're not evading" and "can crash land in a way that doesn't kill everyone on board" are two very goddamn different bars to clear. Yeah, I guess the White Base could have flown over and bombarded the crashed Gaw just to make sure everyone was dead(instead of getting the hell out to avoid being killed by Zeon reinforcements that may or may not be coming), but we'll never know. We're just going to have to agree to disagree about the scene.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:23
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Kanos posted:This is getting really tedious because you're assuming You're assuming a lot yourself, but if you don't want to discuss it anymore then fair enough.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:28
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Kanos posted:This is getting really tedious About time for a new thread title isn't it
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Jun 24, 2020 11:10
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Kinda appropriate that there's a huge debate about a scene with a crashing plane considering it looks like the forums are likely to do the same soon
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Jun 24, 2020 11:55
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since a lot of people only check bookmarks, you should know that our admin, lowtax, has been credibly accused of abusing his partner. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3928980 please do what you believe to be ethical.
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Jun 24, 2020 12:32
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tsob, not every reply requires you to detail in an essay why you are right and they are wrong about their interpretation of a fictional story. Stuntman - instead of posting that passive aggressive poo poo in every thread, why don't you just say what you really mean. Anyone that has been here long enough knew Lowtax sucked and thats why he got fuckin run out of here more or less as an active member of the community.
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Jun 24, 2020 15:20
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Kanos posted:This is getting really tedious because you're assuming that the Gaw was utterly hosed and completely dismissing that Garma literally climbs onto the controls turns the entire thing around in a completely different direction - showing that the descent was slow and controlled - to steer it at the White Base, which is far as hell away from the Gaw, again meaning that the descent is not rapid. With regards to the Gaw's durability, did you know that turning large airframes too rapidly can cause catastrophic, nightmarish damage to the airframe, and that war planes that are designed to survive being hit by ground fire can't actually survive somebody wrenching it into a 90 degree turn in one go, especially when the frame is already damaged(such as by being hit by enough ground fire that it's going down)? Playing War Thunder planes on Realistic is a great way to learn how that happens in reality - try forcing a plane into maneuvers it wasn't designed for with a heavily damaged airframe and it will simply disintegrate (for that matter, even if it's designed for said maneuvers it will still disintegrate if its airframe is sufficiently damaged). Also, it is entirely feasible for the Gaw to blow up in mid-air despite airframe damage given that it was on fire and still very much had stores of ammunition in the form of its bombs, Dopp bullets/missiles, and Zaku weapons (to say nothing of fuel, which I'm happy to handwave away because fusion reactors even though those can explode pretty dramatically in-lore).
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Jun 24, 2020 16:30
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even if garma could have done something different and survived, he wouldn't have. char manipulated him into that situation while perfectly understanding garma's simple personality. it's kind of questionable that char would perfectly understand what someone who had never experienced a crisis would do in a crisis, but that's oyw char for you.
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Jun 24, 2020 16:36
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:even if garma could have done something different and survived, he wouldn't have. char manipulated him into that situation while perfectly understanding garma's simple personality. it's kind of questionable that char would perfectly understand what someone who had never experienced a crisis would do in a crisis, but that's oyw char for you. Eh, Garma really only had two choices - freeze up (which would probably result in him dying) or try to counter-attack (which at best would result in the mutual destruction of White Base and Garma). Being Garma's long-time friend means that Char's well-aware of his inferiority complex vis-a-vis his siblings/Char and his imposter syndrome (as Garma, the rank-and-file, and the Governor of New Yark are well-aware of the fact that he didn't earn his position (though many regard him highly all the same), especially in opposition to Dozle/Char who are clearly battle-tested and proven). As a result it's likely that he'd try a suicide attack as a way of proving himself to his detractors, his family, and even to himself. Also, to spite Char. Either way though, the end result is Garma dying - which was Char's real objective. Taking care of White Base would've been icing on the cake at the time, although later on Char begins to appreciate how useful White Base is in his personal mission to kill off the Zabi family. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 17:25
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