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Dog Kisser posted:No TRIGGER anime has had a good ending, full stop. This one just being kind of rushed is a massive step up in quality, haha. Inferno Cop and Rolling Girls had fine endings  Luluco too.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:20
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I like some of the little details of the show and how things change as the story goes on, like how during the end credits of the first few episodes we see Nazuna as a human twice, but after Michiru meets Nazuna in Episode 6, the second shot of Nazuna in the end credits from then on is in her kitsune form. And Michiru definitely wants to munch on Nazuna's bush like it's a side salad and she was late to dinner.
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Jul 4, 2020 03:31
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Xelkelvos posted:Inferno Cop and Rolling Girls had fine endings Heck, the final ep of Luluco was the best episode. There's kind of this idea that trigger shows don't stick the landing, but really I find that all of the shows that this gets applied to tend to have a lot of writing issues throughout, not just at the ending, such as KLK, Kiznaiver, and Darling in the Franxx (though this was in large part A1).
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Jul 4, 2020 03:38
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didnt think the racial allegory was botched at all — the message seemed to be that anyone can be pushed into violent behavior if you torment, deceive and betray them enough. the inbred white racists tried to pretend they were “immune” but they flipped out when pushed into a corner too. the villain’s plan was to make the beastmen (read: oppressed lower classes) violently riot by revealing their religion is a lie. but they didnt succeed because even if the most recent representation of their savior was a lie, they still shared thousands of years of culture. theres a lot going on, and a lot to unpack, but i think the allegory only fails if you try to interpret the beastmen as a metaphor for a specific race, instead of all oppressed people everywhere
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Jul 5, 2020 18:32
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scary ghost dog posted:didnt think the racial allegory was botched at all — the message seemed to be that anyone can be pushed into violent behavior if you torment, deceive and betray them enough. the inbred white racists tried to pretend they were “immune” but they flipped out when pushed into a corner too. the villain’s plan was to make the beastmen (read: oppressed lower classes) violently riot by revealing their religion is a lie. but they didnt succeed because even if the most recent representation of their savior was a lie, they still shared thousands of years of culture. theres a lot going on, and a lot to unpack, but i think the allegory only fails if you try to interpret the beastmen as a metaphor for a specific race, instead of all oppressed people everywhere So wtf are humans then?
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Jul 5, 2020 19:08
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white people. e: vvvv Watermelon Daiquiri fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 19:14
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Xelkelvos posted:So wtf are humans then? explicitly inbred wealthy white people
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Jul 5, 2020 19:50
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Xelkelvos posted:Inferno Cop and Rolling Girls had fine endings Turning Girls, you mean? Rolling Girls was Studio Wit (and kind of a mess).
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Jul 5, 2020 20:03
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if rolling girls was trigger it would be their 2nd best show
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Jul 5, 2020 20:56
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scary ghost dog posted:didnt think the racial allegory was botched at all — the message seemed to be that anyone can be pushed into violent behavior if you torment, deceive and betray them enough. the inbred white racists tried to pretend they were “immune” but they flipped out when pushed into a corner too. the villain’s plan was to make the beastmen (read: oppressed lower classes) violently riot by revealing their religion is a lie. but they didnt succeed because even if the most recent representation of their savior was a lie, they still shared thousands of years of culture. theres a lot going on, and a lot to unpack, but i think the allegory only fails if you try to interpret the beastmen as a metaphor for a specific race, instead of all oppressed people everywhere Meh. I feel like careening into every corny pitfall in the book of "funny animal as metaphor for human oppression" stories, right down to the main character having to help the denizens of her new enviroment be better than themselves, writing concrete actual reasons for the discrimination to exist so we have an easy problem to identify and punch, and having a member of the marginalized be the real big bad alll along ohhoho what a delightfully delicious twist, all of that is a really long, bumpy, kinda dopey road to travel just to arrive at a "did you know, dear viewer, that discrimination is the bad thing? It is discrimination that is bad. *hold for applause*" ending. It goes literally everywhere I was hoping the story wouldn't, and honestly I go into stuff like this and Beastars resisting the urge to read it as a racial thing, cuz if you did, it would be plainly terrible. Trying to mine a trans reading from BNA also feels naturally fraught when the thing Michiru and Nazuna are "awakening" to was forced on them via anime government conspiracy wo their will or consent. Their identities, gender, sexuality doesn't factor into anything. It's all Follow Your Heart poo poo. I didn't think the show was ultimately toxic or nothin, but the story honestly let me down. It's somehow both shallow AND overwritten. P much right after it came back from its break, the show falls into Kazuki Nakashima Show Exposition Overload and never really climbs back out until the very end, where it gets so dumb so fast I died laughing. Pootybutt fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jul 6, 2020 |
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Jul 6, 2020 02:14
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Darth Walrus posted:Turning Girls, you mean? Rolling Girls was Studio Wit (and kind of a mess). Right. Similar names.
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Jul 6, 2020 05:22
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this was really mediocre. The premise feels like it was designed for slice of life, and trigger had already pulled that off pretty well for most of LWA (and hell, for the first half of BNA too), so seeing them recycle promare But Furry is a pretty big letdown. The cyberpunk-lite/vapourwave aesthetic from the promo stuff really tapered off after the first couple of episodes, too, which is a shame shiro getting smashed into talking meatloaf was pretty rad tho
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Jul 8, 2020 02:17
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Yeah this was a fairly middle of the road show. One thing I was very mixed on (besides the botched allegory) was Michiru and Nazuna's friendship. It felt like there was a chunk missing in the middle from the development there. Nazuna is being nasty and manipulative, throwing Michiru's friendship in the trash and Michiru reacting to that exactly how most folks would. Yet only an episode or two later, Michiru's back trying to be her friend while Nazuna is still acting the same. I get that they were going for Michiru being the one to not fully understand the situation, but we never really see Nazuna seem to care that much about Michiru until the concert stuff (where it could be argued she's still using her friend.) It just felt like a very quick turn for Nazuna to suddenly be nice(r) again. EDIT: \/ yeah that didn't really scream "them making up" to me but I didn't connect it with the scene after on first watch. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Jul 11, 2020 |
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Jul 11, 2020 23:05
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Mokinokaro posted:Yeah this was a fairly middle of the road show. did you miss the scene on the train where they saw each others reflections and remembered how they used to be
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Jul 11, 2020 23:23
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scary ghost dog posted:did you miss the scene on the train where they saw each others reflections and remembered how they used to be I think the issue (and I felt the same too) is that it was just for a scene and there didn't seem to be any build up to Nazuna caring about Michiru again.
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Jul 12, 2020 00:33
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Xelkelvos posted:I think the issue (and I felt the same too) is that it was just for a scene and there didn't seem to be any build up to Nazuna caring about Michiru again. human relationships dont have off/on switches, they wax and wane. nazuna and michiru never stopped caring about each other, and the moment on the train was them simultaneously deciding to get over their petty grievances in order to keep their friendship alive
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Jul 12, 2020 00:54
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I was really disappointed with the way the Michiru/Nazuna relationship played out, because I thought that they were supposed to have an awesome battle at some point. I thought the whole reason that a character was introduced with the same power set as Michiru was so Trigger could animate a sick beast mode fight scene between them, and every time it seemed like the tension was ratcheting up I was like OH YEAH HERE WE GO, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT. Then Michiru just wears down Nazuna by being nice or whatever.
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Jul 12, 2020 01:59
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i think thats missing the point. this show was pretty explicitly “about” not letting the wealthy and powerful trick the lower classes into killing each other. having an epic badass fight scene between two best friends would undermine that even if its resolved amicably. making their fight an emotional one that they reconcile through continued interaction is much healthier and sets them up as the characters that have the “cure” (love and personal connection) to “nirvasyl syndrome” (being driven insane by an actively antagonistic society)
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Jul 12, 2020 02:16
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Wait, Trigger is making a cyberpunk 2077 anime now??
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Jul 12, 2020 02:28
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scary ghost dog posted:i think thats missing the point. this show was pretty explicitly “about” not letting the wealthy and powerful trick the lower classes into killing each other. having an epic badass fight scene between two best friends would undermine that even if its resolved amicably. making their fight an emotional one that they reconcile through continued interaction is much healthier and sets them up as the characters that have the “cure” (love and personal connection) to “nirvasyl syndrome” (being driven insane by an actively antagonistic society) That seems like a real stretch to me. The action on-screen doesn't match with the themes you're talking about. Michiru and Nazuna didn't solve the syndrone together, they just got a blood sample for Michiru and took it to a lab. Also, the immediate solution was Ginro's soulful awoooo. Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Wait, Trigger is making a cyberpunk 2077 anime now?? Yeah, that's happening. Maxwell Adams fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 02:51
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Maxwell Adams posted:That seems like a real stretch to me. The action on-screen doesn't match with the themes you're talking about. Michiru and Nazuna didn't solve the syndrone together, they just got a blood sample for Michiru and took it to a lab. Also, the immediate solution was Ginro's soulful awoooo. yeah the message and themes are complicated, and there are multiple solutions to the conflict, which i think lends credence to the idea that its a metaphor for generational abuse from a ruling class. ginro is the spiritual core of the people and calmed their rage by reminding them of their perennial struggle and how they always overcome. michiru and nazuna are newcomers to the conflict so they arent truly affected by the machinations of the “humans” but they also arent really able to help the “beastmen” overcome their rage, other than by acting as an outlet for it, which harms both parties. theyre heralds of a new age, but change is slow.
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Jul 12, 2020 03:01
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I think I stand by the idea that BNA has no message or that any message that they tried to have more or less collapses as the series covers together at the end.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:04
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yeah it's thematically facile in a similar way to KLK though i liked it quite a bit more due to better characters + better visual style & music + more concise
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Jul 12, 2020 18:19
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Xelkelvos posted:I think I stand by the idea that BNA has no message or that any message that they tried to have more or less collapses as the series covers together at the end. i think thats absolutely incorrect and the message couldnt be more obvious, unless youre forcing yourself to read it as just a race allegory instead of a mix of race and class allegory
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Jul 12, 2020 18:20
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Xelkelvos posted:I think I stand by the idea that BNA has no message or that any message that they tried to have more or less collapses as the series covers together at the end. I second this. If the beastmen started rioting out of anger for their opression at the system itself out of their own volition, I would've much preffered to see that happen then the evil humans' discriminatory fears against beastmen being actually based 100% in fact and they all just hulk out if you put them together for too long(which happened before they were being oppressed at all, which is why I don't buy the reading it's about being abused by the powerful. The show started out being about that before gradually overwriting itself into a big muddy hole) and Japanese Savior-kun's blood literally being the key to everything lol You could've done something w this outline in a way that comments on race and class and repression, and the show does a good job of at least hooking you in enuff to want to see what it's driving at but the execution was a big ole swing and a miss, not in ruinous or toxic ways but basically just cuz it's ultimately a preteen/teen-aimed superhero show, and it handles these issues w the tropes, grace and, well, less insight into these issues than any given ep of Gargoyles, but it is what it is. Plenty of people will prolly take something of value away from BNA's characters and optimism, but you prolly shouldn't be shocked to find plenty who just can't take it seriously as a message or metaphor at all, and it won't necessarily be cuz they didn't get it. It was cute and fun for most of its front half and the finale, but I can't begin to take it seriously, didn't even make me like baseball
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Jul 12, 2020 19:04
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Pootybutt posted:I second this. If the beastmen started rioting out of anger for their opression at the system itself out of their own volition, I would've much preffered to see that happen then the evil humans' discriminatory fears against beastmen being actually based 100% in fact and they all just hulk out if you put them together for too long(which happened before they were being oppressed at all, which is why I don't buy the reading it's about being abused by the powerful. The show started out being about that before gradually overwriting itself into a big muddy hole) and Japanese Savior-kun's blood literally being the key to everything lol
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Jul 12, 2020 20:03
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based on the posts in this thread, if this show has a flaw its that it was somehow too subtle with its message, or that anime audiences are just completely unable to come to terms with a show that presents a narrative of unwinnable social imbalance, where the only victory that can be achieved is avoiding self-destruction. which is realistic and compelling. this isnt kill la kill or gurren lagann, where good must summon the strength to defeat an impossibly strong enemy outside of our traditional reality. this is a story where the enemy is ourself, and our need to classify our enemies as fundamentally different from ourselves. humans are just inbred beastmen. beastmen are just oppressed humans. the only difference is lived experience and superficialities.
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Jul 12, 2020 20:17
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scary ghost dog posted:did you miss the part where the rich human pharma guy also succumbs to “nirvasyl syndrome” when forced into a corner? the message isnt that human fears about beastmen being violent turn out to be true, the message is that everyone has the potential for violence when put in an utterly compromising situation. take a closer look at the instances of “nirvasyl syndrome” breaking out. its not just beastmen being too close to each other for too long; its people being stretched past the point of breaking. the villains whole plan is to gather up all of the beastmen and expose them to the most harrowing betrayal imaginable, then pretend the ensuing riots would have inevitably happened anyway because thats just how beastmen are. haha did you miss the part where that guy wasn't human at all it turned out? The opressed was the greatest opressor of all the whole time! Making it about "see, see? Everyone has the capacity for vio-lence!" is what I mean when I say that's about what you can expect for a liberally-minded superhero show aimed at kids. It ain't that deep, and goes iffy places to go there. It feels so outsiders' perspective.
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Jul 12, 2020 20:28
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In true Trigger fashion, I enjoyed the insane slapstick episode the most. Kinda wish we got a full-length series that's 90% of that. Probably why I like Space Patrol Luluco so much
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Jul 12, 2020 20:35
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I think that if your argument hinges on the idea that Studio Trigger knows how to do subtlety then you’ve lost before you’ve even begun
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Jul 12, 2020 20:35
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Pootybutt posted:haha did you miss the part where that guy wasn't human at all it turned out? The opressed was the greatest opressor of all the whole time! yeah you completely missed the point. he was human. humans are just inbred beastmen. theyre generational wealth, so far detached from the poor rabble that they dont even perceive them as the same species. its not a liberal-minded superhero show where the day is saved through mutual understanding, its an honest and brutal look at how centuries of stratification based on class and race can lead to seemingly uncrossable societal divides, and it offers the barest glimpse of how to bridge those gaps, but it cant actually make the jump because, in real life, there is no clear solution. so it gives us the knowledge we need to find an answer, and leaves us searching. its powerful stuff. edit: and its not “everyone has the capacity for violence” as much as it is “those who provoke violence are far worse than those who commit it.” Oxxidation posted:I think that if your argument hinges on the idea that Studio Trigger knows how to do subtlety then you’ve lost before you’ve even begun its not subtle at all which is why im baffled so many people missed the point scary ghost dog fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 20:37
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No he wasn't a human. Here literally says as much. He's a purer than pure purebred Beastman woods whole race was puppetmastering humans to their own ends
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Jul 12, 2020 21:06
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scary ghost dog posted:based on the posts in this thread, if this show has a flaw its that it was somehow too subtle with its message, or that anime audiences are just completely unable to come to terms with a show that presents a narrative of unwinnable social imbalance, where the only victory that can be achieved is avoiding self-destruction. which is realistic and compelling. this isnt kill la kill or gurren lagann, where good must summon the strength to defeat an impossibly strong enemy outside of our traditional reality. this is a story where the enemy is ourself, and our need to classify our enemies as fundamentally different from ourselves. humans are just inbred beastmen. beastmen are just oppressed humans. the only difference is lived experience and superficialities. I mean, where Promare succeeds imo is in actually embodying the marginalized people metaphor's anger, and not explaining it away or looking down on it when it happens. When Lio rages out, you wanna roar along w him. BNA makes it about anime conspiracies and boring cult drama and engineered riots and false gods becuz those are things that happen??irl?? and never really stops to make it about the beastmen's anger or feelings at all, and that's where it lands w the biggest thud. The finer plot details are just that, plotplotplot. scary ghost dog posted:its not a liberal-minded superhero show where the day is saved through mutual understanding, its an honest and brutal look at how centuries of stratification based on class and race can lead to seemingly uncrossable societal divides, and it offers the barest glimpse of how to bridge those gaps, but it cant actually make the jump because, in real life, there is no clear solution. so it gives us the knowledge we need to find an answer, and leaves us searching. its powerful stuff. I'm happy you had that reading of it, it's an interesting way of looking at it.
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Jul 12, 2020 21:13
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ultimately i was really impressed with the narrative especially after kill la kill being about how uniforms are bad. it sounds like i really need to watch promare edit: ill agree that the social commentary and narrative arent totally fleshed out but i totally reject the idea that theyre contradictory, misguided, or harmful. this show flows with love and empathy, and utterly rejects violence and hatred of all kinds. scary ghost dog fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 21:20
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You guys are making a lot of good points! However, I notice you've failed to mention the most important aspect of BNA, which is that it does the thing where the theme song kicks in during the climactic fight which means the show is an 8/10 at worst.
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Jul 12, 2020 23:49
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kill la kill ruined that for me
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Jul 13, 2020 00:51
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BNA as a show was merely OK but it did bring us Night Running so it's good in my book.
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Jul 13, 2020 01:31
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Michiru and Nazuna are Cute!!!
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Jul 13, 2020 02:40
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Spiritus Nox posted:Michiru and Nazuna are Cute!!! 
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Jul 13, 2020 02:41
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Thundarr posted:BNA as a show was merely OK but it did bring us Night Running so it's good in my book. Night Running is so good I found it funny that another anime Netflix got, Dorohedoro, had an ED that is called Night Surfing, that is also really loving good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqHQMgUJcQo Night activities make for good music apparently.
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