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I think in the short-term the Kobolds will remain competitive with new missiles. That said, we can cancel the expansion and then make something new. I thought it was bugged, so that opens a lot of possibilities. I have altered the ship contest to allow designs up to 22,000 tons.
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Jul 30, 2020 00:36
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code:code:Both variants require a new engine design code:code: While the proposed design is capable of firing the existing Vulpes missile, this weapon is less than ideal for engaging such fast targets - we expect no more than one in three to hit. Applying the new drive technology to missiles produces a much faster variant, allowing a hit chance of nearly one in two.  EDIT - Post is not Preview Votes: Industrial Focus C. Strengthen Sol’s Industry – Earth’s factories will be greatly expanded, especially fuel refineries. Industrial production tech will be pursued. Sorium harvesting will be researched and a fuel harvesting station built and placed in Sol once possible. Off World Colonies B. Improvement – We must make our current colonies larger and more functional. We need to develop their native industries, or at least get them exporting vital TN minerals. Military Focus C. Balanced Approach – Keep our naval expansion on track, but divert some resources to developing a better military. Send a few more batteries to Makho’s Folly. The Kooken Menace B. Revanchism - Remember the Maler! Our destiny lies in the stars, and the Kookens have cut us off from a vital path of expansion. We must prepare for war. Attempt to destroy and salvage a Kooken ship for parts to help close the technological gap. (this will require us to research salvage first) Gnoman fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 00:54
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Gnoman posted:ships These are nice, I really like that first one. That second one could really ruin something fast, but I shudder thinking about managing 110 box launchers in battle. Any reason there is no XO position? I find with a ship this big that the training bonus is well worth it. Also an engineer could really cut that failure rate way down. Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 01:03
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Virtual Russian posted:Any reason there is no XO position? I find with a ship this big that the training bonus is well worth it. Also an engineer could really cut that failure rate way down. Mostly I greatly overestimated how big the necessary components are. I edited it in, shaving off a little range to keep everything else the same.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:09
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Virtual Russian posted:
We're walking a razor's edge right now. We need all the time to prepare ourselves for a conflict, and that includes shoring up our infrastructure to do more than just get colonists to planets: fuel is one of our biggest constraints in performing continuous operations. Any investments in a war economy we start now, even if they don't get to fully vest by the time conflict starts, is one step ahead of drastically re-orienting our economy to accommodate.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:28
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Gnoman posted:Mostly I greatly overestimated how big the necessary components are. I edited it in, shaving off a little range to keep everything else the same. Still tons of range for fighting in Accatran, there is a lagrange point that cuts billions of kilometres of the total journey.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:39
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What do we think the aliens have for beam weapons? 20cm+ Railguns because each attack was 4 strength 4 attacks is my guess. Is there anything else it could be? Industrial Focus Makho’s Folly should receive some maintenance facilities. C. Strengthen Sol’s Industry – Earth’s factories will be greatly expanded, especially fuel refineries. Industrial production tech will be pursued. Sorium harvesting will be researched and a fuel harvesting station built and placed in Sol once possible. This is the only option that fixes the fuel problem Off World Colonies B. Improvement – We must make our current colonies larger and more functional. We need to develop their native industries, or at least get them exporting vital TN minerals. Keeping track of too many colonies is hard both as a reader and a player. Let's focus on getting these useful first. Military Focus A. Navy – If the Navy can secure space there will be no need of the army, if they cannot an isolated colony will fall no matter how fortified. Continue the naval expansion project as planned. If the army wants to be relevant, they can build hangers :P The Kooken Menace B. Revanchism - Remember the Maler! Our destiny lies in the stars, and the Kookens have cut us off from a vital path of expansion. We must prepare for war. Attempt to destroy and salvage a Kooken ship for parts to help close the technological gap. (this will require us to research salvage first) Hopefully after we get our fuel situation fixed. Tech Focus Defensive Systems Current generation of armor makes building fast ships very painful. Even one more tier makes a big difference if I remember right.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:40
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It would be folly to design a new warship without the previous version ever having seen battle! Go pick a fight with the kookoos so we can see what they're made of and also see what we're made of.
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Jul 30, 2020 02:37
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Out of curiosity, is there a reason to use any missiles smaller than size 6 for offensive purposes? I note that sensors rated for the smallest resolution are for "missiles size 6 or under" so it looks like going smaller won't make a missile harder to detect. I realize that right now is a terrible time to try and introduce new launchers and buildup of new missiles and new ships with those new launchers, and I'm not suggesting we should. But I am curious if there's any pros to using a size 4 or 5 missile over 6.
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Jul 30, 2020 02:56
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C - Industry! We need the fuel. B - Improvement! We can't afford to over-extend ourselves right now. A - The war is decided in space. Ground combat is merely a formality. A - Dig in our heels and bide time. gently caress them if they want the planet, we'll glass it from orbit just to spite the bastards. Armor Radio Free Kobold fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 02:59
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Shoeless posted:Out of curiosity, is there a reason to use any missiles smaller than size 6 for offensive purposes? I note that sensors rated for the smallest resolution are for "missiles size 6 or under" so it looks like going smaller won't make a missile harder to detect. I realize that right now is a terrible time to try and introduce new launchers and buildup of new missiles and new ships with those new launchers, and I'm not suggesting we should. But I am curious if there's any pros to using a size 4 or 5 missile over 6. You can carry 33% more size four missiles and launchers than the size six ones. Missile size accurately indicates how much mass they require on a ship.
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Jul 30, 2020 03:01
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LLSix posted:What do we think the aliens have for beam weapons? 20cm+ Railguns because each attack was 4 strength 4 attacks is my guess. Is there anything else it could be? It's a mild pity we didn't get more intel about them when we were talking to them - how aggressive is turning on the active sensors considered to be? are there any prospects for sneaking in a scout, or is the downside (they find our jump point) too significant?
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Jul 30, 2020 03:04
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Pinging your active sensors is pretty much a declaration of hostilities to the AI iirc given only weapons use it and there's other methods of detecting people that don't involve targeting weapons onto them.
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Jul 30, 2020 03:09
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C# added automated intelligence breakdowns of alien tech and ships. Did we learn anything interesting while we were trying to talk to them?
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Jul 30, 2020 03:13
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C, B, A, A, Construction/Production. We desperately need to develop an economic base that can actually support our operations and create a union that can provide prosperity for its people. We have a threat in play, but if we hold the line and protect human settlements, we may be able to survive the threat either by negotiated settlement or victory in war.
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Jul 30, 2020 03:14
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LLSix posted:What do we think the aliens have for beam weapons? 20cm+ Railguns because each attack was 4 strength 4 attacks is my guess. Is there anything else it could be? Possibilities are: - 1 x 20cm railgun, 350 tons total, wedge pattern damage (1,2,1) - 4 x 12cm lasers, 800 tons total, Tetris L pattern damage (1,3) - 4 x strength 4 particle beams, 1400 tons total, wedge pattern (1,2,1) [why doesn't particle beam size get fun names?] Mesons and gauss deal strength-1 hits, smallest plasma carronade is strength-6 The Lone Badger posted:It would be folly to design a new warship without the previous version ever having seen battle! Go pick a fight with the kookoos so we can see what they're made of and also see what we're made of. Nothing we have can actually go Voss jump point -> planets -> back to the jump point except the unarmed sensor frigate. We'd have to send in our one tanker with them. Gnoman posted:Ships 1) What's the retool & build time for this? 2) How much worse do these get if you use either existing engines or multiple copies of a smaller new engine? The engine on there now is 3300RP. If we give Fat Samurai every lab they can handle, that's still 9 months before the shipyard can even start to retool, so the first ship isn't going to come off the line for at least a couple years. Multiple smaller engines would be trading fuel efficiency for research time 3) Depending on how ships many we expect to get out, dropping the point defense may be worthwhile. Ton-for-ton, armor offers more protection to a single ship. Point defense's advantage is that it's shared across a fleet (a ton of armor on the ship next to you doesn't help when you're the one getting shot at). The turrets don't work as anti-ship weapons since the Kooken ships are faster and outrange them. To me, the big question is how much we want to balance between defense against hypothetical missiles vs ammunition to bring down beamships before they can close. Some concepts for ships to explore if someone wants to try designing: - Carrier with fuel-efficient commercial engines to ferry our existing FAC swarm in-theatre (or complement with new fighters, we've got about 1.5 fighters/year of production that's otherwise unused). Dies if they can beat our FACs - Heavy armor, at least 4500km/s of speed to close, lots of gauss since it's our best beam weapon, try to win a beam fight. Dies if they have good missileships, or fater/better beamships - Something light enough to build many, mass PD turrets, low armor, some launchers. Blob enough to block incoming missiles. Dies if they have better engine tech and can outspeed our PD, or enough tubes to overwhelm i - Heavy armor, long deployment times, short range, high power missile, slow/immobile ship. Park it on our side of the jumppoint and swat anything that comes through. Everyone else dies if they can run away without fighting it - Deep magazines, low # reloadable launchers. Beats armor ships, loses to PD ships Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 03:47
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Foxfire_ posted:Nothing we have can actually go Voss jump point -> planets -> back to the jump point except the unarmed sensor frigate. We'd have to send in our one tanker with them. They won't need return-trip fuel though. Gnoman posted:
Why put armour on a ship armed with box-launchers? They won't get a chance to shoot it until after it has fired its salvo and has nothing more to contribute to the fight. The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 03:51
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As someone who is currently on the front lines, here are my preferences as to my fate. B. If they're actually more technologically advanced than us, we should have more backup in case they actually assault our position. B. We need to build up the colonies to be more independent, in case of a possible siege state. A. I'm not biased at all. More spaceboats. B. Look, I'm not saying we go after them, but if they approach, we should take one down. Focus: Power and Propulsion. Can't hit me if I'm too fast
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Jul 30, 2020 04:05
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The Lone Badger posted:Why put armour on a ship armed with box-launchers? They won't get a chance to shoot it until after it has fired its salvo and has nothing more to contribute to the fight. Can't guarantee that you get to shoot first: - enemy has 30m range missiles you have to plow through to get into range - enemy has faster missiles. They hit first, kill you, and all your missiles lose lock - you get jumped by a hidden ship and have to endure some fire while the crew targets it The main disadvantage to box launchers right now is Virtual Russian's sanity. If you want to do anything besides "launch everything!" you have to drag each missile one-by-one. For big salvo sizes, they're smaller than a launcher+magazine and the only place any ship can take on ordnance right now is all the way back on Earth, so an extra few hours of loading time won't really matter. We can ship an ordnance station forward, but we don't have any good ammunition transports.
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Jul 30, 2020 04:07
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The box launcher version is more "somebody was going to do it, so I'll just put it in the post" than anything else. I don't particularly like the design, although it is worth mentioning that you can build both from an Avenger-tooled shipyard.Foxfire_ posted:
Retool is a little over a year. Build time is two years per ship. This is pretty much inevitable for large designs until we invest heavily in Shipbuilding Rate tech, and trying to avoid it means you built only small designs. An engine 1/3 the size (and thus 1/3 the RP) cuts the range in half. This is inadvisable. Our best existing design actually gives a speed boost (because those are all tuned for MAX POWER), but quarters the range, giving it half the legs of the Kobold class destroyer. This would make the design suicidal. Any engine worth having will have a high research cost. It is baked into the system and cannot be avoided. Stripping out the turrets and associated sensors gives enough space for an additional magazine and three more tubes. This gives 18 tubes and 108 total missiles. The odds of them not having missile ships is low, and even with a small build of Avengers we're likely to be shepherding a swarm of littler ships that benefit from the protection.
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Jul 30, 2020 04:20
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Foxfire_ posted:Possibilities are: I personally suspect the railgun, as two different ship classes were firing the same pattern of shots. Of all the beams for them to be using that would also be a real blessing. Not only could we get beam range on them quickly with particle beams, but they are ineffective against armor. Also we have some research already in railguns and particle cannons. Gauss is a bit developed too, but it wouldn't even out preform our railguns. Particle beams and speed would be my choice right now for a heavily armed fast beamship. As you said though, a beamship right now is a big gamble. edit: here the best beamship I can manage without new parts. It's armament is slow and weak, but has some range, and the armor is thinner than i'd like, but can take some hits. It can get to Makho's Folly and still have fuel to retreat into sol, but can't make it back to Earth without fuel somewhere along the journey. It only slightly outpaces what shot at us, but *might* out-range them. I feel like a new engine is unavoidable here to have anything other than a compromise. code:Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 04:34
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Industrial Focus: C Off World Colonies: B Military Focus: B The Kooken: A
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Jul 30, 2020 05:03
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I forget, wasn't one of the changes a chance for box launchers to go boom when taking damage.
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Jul 30, 2020 05:24
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Virtual Russian posted:
Can I vote for this one?
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Jul 30, 2020 05:35
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Votes: 1. B Build more ships, to slaughter the alien menace before they kill us all. All attempts at peace were clearly in vain, time to wipe 'em out. 2. B My colony needs more resources, and I'm definitely not going to embezzle most of it! 3. A Ground troops can't blow up alien spaceships! 4. B And before you go on about the "value" of their society, let's break down what their name means. "The Kookens Pleasure Pit Protectorate" isn't some arbitrary selection of words. Obviously, there must be some sort of business named "Kookens Pleasure Pit", which became so powerful it literally bought out the entire civilization. We're not just dealing with any alien menace, we're dealing with an end-stage capitalist alien menace! There can be no peace with them, for peace means forgoing profit!
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Jul 30, 2020 06:32
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B A A A Power and propulsion Not going to say much on my reasoning. We remain ever vigilant as the first line of defense against the Kook menace. Give us the tools we need to keep Humanity safe. AJ_Impy, officer commanding Squadron 001, CT Aleptragius, Makho’s Folly high orbit.
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Jul 30, 2020 12:08
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Virtual Russian posted:+++++++ Union of Terra Policy for 2110s +++++++
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Jul 30, 2020 12:37
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IAmThatIs posted:Can I vote for this one? I made it as more of an exercise in what can be done without new parts. If no one objects I can include it in the vote, but i'd worry about the fuel consumption. I could throw together a version with a low RP engine maybe. Telsa Cola posted:I forget, wasn't one of the changes a chance for box launchers to go boom when taking damage. Yes, and at our tech level it is very likely to explode. To be fair though, if one of our box launcher based ships has been hit enough to lose its armor its hopefully already fired its missiles. Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 12:55
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I was messing around with engine sizes and beam ship designs and I discovered something interesting. I present that discovery to you as the Inspector Gadget. The Inspector Gadget is armed with a single particle beam that wildly outranges all known alien weapons. It also has the speed and endurance to take the fight to the aliens. A single Inspector Gadget can successfully engage, kite, and destroy all known alien Pleasure Pit forces. The best part is that due to the ship's small size, and limited engine design, the first ships can be rolling out of the shipyards in just 18 months, using only currently available research labs. The ships are small enough that they can be built out of the Han International Shipbuilding yards, allowing the larger Blohm yards to complete their expansion. A scaled up version of the design is also available. Past a certain point, we don't get much additional useful tonnage by adding more engines, and with this engine design, I reached my breaking point at 6 engines.  Like the Inspector Gadget class, the Hunter class is faster and armed with particle beams that outrange all known alien weapons. Each ships packs five times the throw weight of the Inspector Gadget and also comes with a redundant beam control in case of battle damage. In addition to having enough armor to survive four hits to the same spot of armor in a row, the Hunter comes equipped with multiple ablative fuel storages. In case the aliens do have missiles, the Hunter is also carrying an experimental strength 10 shield from Nadel Defence systems, but its primary defense remains its speed, which should cause more than half of equal tech missiles to miss outright. It uses the same engines as the Inspector Gadget, but its larger size means we wont be seeing these in the field for at least 2.5 years. Both of these designs need a new engine which will take <6 months to research using 6 of the 8 available research labs. Both of these designs use a new Beam Fire Control which can actually track the Kookens at their observed speed of just under 4k, unlike existing designs which can only handle targets moving at 3k. Using the remaining 2 available research labs, this design can also be completed in <6 months.  Building a larger ship at the same speed is going to need a more expensive engine, and probably larger engines. I'm reluctant to do that because having multiple redundant engines is really important for beamships because speed is life. Personally, I like Inspector Gadget more. It's a relatively cheap way to test to see if we can win with particle beams. If anyone wants to see other beam weapon designs, I'm happy to modify the Hunter. If I remember right, the AI is smart enough to kite if it outranges your beams. So any other beam design needs to be a lot faster to make sure it can close to its optimum range. I'm going to play around with missiles and maybe fighters next, but those will probably be in another post to avoid cluttering this one too much. LLSix fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 15:44
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LLSix posted:I present that discovery to you as the Inspector Gadget. 
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Jul 30, 2020 16:02
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Virtual Russian posted:
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Jul 30, 2020 16:13
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Dunno why we're calling them Kookens when they're clearly Koopas.
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Jul 30, 2020 16:31
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GunnerJ posted:Dunno why we're calling them Kookens when they're clearly Koopas. They call themselves Kookens. e: actually it's just the planet or nation name, so maybe they are Koopas Zanzibar Ham fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 16:34
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A,B,A,A Get our mining up in our home system and colonies and have Accatran working on industry and shipyards. The more worlds that can produce ships and components, the quicker we can fight this alien menace. Build up our fleet while they stay put. Its an arms race now, and we need more ships.
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Jul 30, 2020 16:41
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Gnoman posted:However, it is possible to improve our missile designs with the new tech, giving a significant boost to existing ships. I can't make a missile I'm happy with. Right now we miss more than half the time. I think we probably need more agility research to be able to reliably hit ships moving at 4k? I'm not sure though. Maybe someone more experienced with missile design could tell us how to make a missile with both adequate range and the ability to hit 4k ships reliably? I did find a pure upgrade to the Macrotis design by accident. Missile design is weird and finicky and has lots of interacting parts.  By reducing engine boost and increasing engine size I made a missile that is faster, longer ranged, and uses less fuel. Best of all it is marginally more accurate. No, I don't understand why this works, but it does. Ughh, I can't even make good AMMs using the new designs. C# changed how missiles are built. The best AMM I can build only has ~10% chance to hit same tier missiles. Either I'm doing something wrong or missiles in general and AMMs in specific got hit by a very big nerf bat. I know VR doesn't like AMMs but I thought they'd provide a good floor for how accurate we can expect ASMs to be. My AMMs hover right around a 50% hit chance vs known Pleasure Pit ship speeds. With this kind of miss rate on missiles, I can't endorse missle-armed battlewagons. LLSix fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 16:45
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Zanzibar Ham posted:They call themselves Kookens. It's a joke about them being turtle badguys
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Jul 30, 2020 16:51
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GunnerJ posted:It's a joke about them being turtle badguys Jokes? Sorry, my Humor research is kinda lagging
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Jul 30, 2020 16:55
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Here's a particle beam armed FAC. I vastly prefer the Inspector Gadgets, and since we don't have a FAC yard, they compete for the same shipyard. I could not figure out how to fit a particle beam into 500 tons for a fighter design. LLSix fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 17:03
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LLSix posted:Here's a particle beam armed FAC. I vastly prefer the Inspector Gadgets, and since we don't have a FAC yard, they compete for the same shipyard. On that note, anyone know what's up with fighter beam fire control in C# Aurora?
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Jul 30, 2020 17:21
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LLSix posted:I can't make a missile I'm happy with. Right now we miss more than half the time. I think we probably need more agility research to be able to reliably hit ships moving at 4k? I'm not sure though. Maybe someone more experienced with missile design could tell us how to make a missile with both adequate range and the ability to hit 4k ships reliably? Pretty sure missiles were nerfed in C#. At our current tech, I found that agility is strictky worse than adding more speed.
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Jul 30, 2020 17:21
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