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KingKapalone posted:To clarify, I was wondering if my headphones or speakers need a DAC at all? ... really depends on the onboard chip and what it can drive. But generally the answer's no. A DAC can result in a quality increase but if it's not the cheapest onboard chip, it probably won't make a huge difference, especially if you don't clearly hear noise in the signal.
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Jul 31, 2020 14:40
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KingKapalone posted:To clarify, I was wondering if my headphones or speakers need a DAC at all? 
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Jul 31, 2020 14:50
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I have an MSI B450-A Pro if that helps.
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Jul 31, 2020 14:57
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Don’t the A2+ have a DAC? They’re self powered, so the speakers are already internally amplified. If you want a headphone amp I’d definitely consider one of those, probably. Schiit makes some inexpensive ones that have mic connection points and can be wired up between your computer and speakers. Maybe you want a DAC in there too. Is your PC analog audio hookup noisy?
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Jul 31, 2020 16:29
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I have never heard PC sound out that wasn't poo poo, from generic work computers to my stupid gamer motherboard with hyped headphone sound output with ~*dual amplifiers*~ to expensive laptops they all use Realtek garbage and sound like poo poo; Apple are the only company I'm aware of that always has good audio in their devices. Apple dongle is a sufficient DAC for most efficient consumer headphones but may not put out enough power if you're using studio headphones or 'audiophile' market stuff, in which case I'd suggest the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro which is this in a different shell and is measurably superior to most $1000+ discrete DACs. I haven't done any obsessive volume matched A/B testing but imo the Tempotec which I bought for use with my laptop sounds at least as good as my Topping/Atom stack on my PC desk and will power even the 300 ohm 6XX to a level I find painful. Unless you have some extremely power-hungry boutique headphones or are a loving idiot hell-bent on destroying your hearing you don't really need a standalone headphone amp these days due to how good some dongle-style DACs have become. The most important thing about my desktop amp and reason I'll always use one at my PC is that it has a nice analog volume dial on it.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:56
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If you have money for outboard gear get some good, convenient Bluetooth cans for out-and-about and listen to your nice wired phones with a headamp at a desk or couch. If you have a bunch that you “really want to use” keep one or a couple at work/desk and one or a couple at couch. Get some extension cables if you need them. But the minute you’re strapping extra poo poo to your phone or carrying extra boxes with you like DACs or amps you’re expending effort in the wrong directions for way less payoff than inconvenience. Get a set of those fancy Drop phones or some EarPods Pro or really whatever and just forget about it.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:08
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Ok Comboomer posted:If you have money for outboard gear get some good, convenient Bluetooth cans for out-and-about and listen to your nice wired phones with a headamp at a desk or couch. If you have a bunch that you “really want to use” keep one or a couple at work/desk and one or a couple at couch. Get some extension cables if you need them. fuckin telling people to run extension cables in the same post as claiming that a USB dongle is just way too much extra poo poo and effort lol as to 'those fancy Drop phones' i assume you mean the Panda, which have not had positive early reception despite having some early hype over being based on the Oppo PM-3 design, and in wireless IEM land the Galaxy Buds sound better and cost substantially less than the Apple lineup
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Jul 31, 2020 17:55
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Wheeee posted:fuckin telling people to run extension cables in the same post as claiming that a USB dongle is just way too much extra poo poo and effort lol for a phone? Yeah. Not for a PC or even desk bound laptop. I have a DAC on my computer. And yeah, if I want to listen to my nice headphones on the couch or bed I run a longer cable to my amp. Not like dramatically longer, just like 6 feet or whatever. That’s not rocket surgery or bizarre. slow your roll there, captain jackass
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Jul 31, 2020 18:07
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Ok Comboomer posted:If you have money for outboard gear get some good, convenient Bluetooth cans for out-and-about and listen to your nice wired phones with a headamp at a desk or couch. If you have a bunch that you “really want to use” keep one or a couple at work/desk and one or a couple at couch. Get some extension cables if you need them. Ok tinears. You don't understand any of the concepts at play here and really need to read up on... the very basics of how digital audio works? Start there, work your way up. Now I'm not a great big fan of carrying your source, decoder, dac, amp and power in a wheelbarrow whenever you go anywhere, but when you have a set of $200 headphones a separate DAC isn't a bad investment, given they tend to be around $50 and bypass both motherboard noise and stupid-as-hell GAMING SOLUTIONS. ... I wouldn't necessarily go with an AliExpress answer with a Mirco-usb prot but honestly it's just up to finding reviews you trust. Powering off USB is fine in most cases, especially with USB 3. Ok Comboomer posted:just like 6 feet or whatever. That’s not ... bizarre. 
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Jul 31, 2020 18:11
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And just to be clear since I'm not sure passive-aggressive sarcasm will be enough. You're saying this poo poo you're doing is not bizarre but actually it's bizarre as all hell, you seem to have no loving clue how this works or you're operating off some kind of moon logic where your breakfast eggs are the key to audio quality or some poo poo, and you don't know poo poo and your recommendations are poo poo. Like seriously hooking up an amp to a PC audio output and not going straight to a DAC? What the hell is wrong with you? EDIT: Instead of extending the DAC's wire you add a cheap longer extension wire to a headphone setup so the analog signal - the one vulnerable to degradation - is the one that gets to travel further? USB-C dongle being something extraordinary rather than "literally the default answer for portable high quality audio"? Advising people to buy mediocre garbage from Drop rather than doing literally any research? Now I don't exactly like chi-fi because it tends to be hit-and-miss, I have to pay $lots for import taxes and there's about zero warranty but it CAN have good tech for cheap, if you're adventurous and patient. endlessmonotony fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 18:16
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endlessmonotony posted:Ok tinears. endlessmonotony posted:And just to be clear since I'm not sure passive-aggressive sarcasm will be enough.  buddy, I’ve been posting here and in various audio threads for about a decade. I’ve given and gotten a lot of good advice in that time. I have a good amount of audio equipment, both hifi and- let’s call it prosumer. I have no idea how to even respond to you, so I won’t waste my time doing that, or proving that I understand the basics of how DACs work, or where they go in an audio chain.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:23
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Ok Comboomer posted:
... well my apologies I didn't know you had been posting in audio threads for ten years. Sorry, sorry, consider everything I said invalid.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:25
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endlessmonotony posted:... well my apologies I didn't know you had been posting in audio threads for ten years. Sorry, sorry, consider everything I said invalid. lol what is it that you think I said that was so wrong? So that I may clarify it from English to whatever eldritch tongue you’re more comfortable with?
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Jul 31, 2020 18:31
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Ok Comboomer posted:for a phone? Yeah. Not for a PC or even desk bound laptop. I have a DAC on my computer. i actually edited that post down before hitting submit to be less of an rear end in a top hat, you're posting bad advice and have no idea what you're talking about if you think running extension cables across the room is way better than having your music source sitting in your lap then more power to you, but you're being weird and stupid endlessmonotony posted:... I wouldn't necessarily go with an AliExpress answer with a Mirco-usb prot but honestly it's just up to finding reviews you trust. Powering off USB is fine in most cases, especially with USB 3 Read the linked measurements and review of that device, passing it over because 'AliExpress' is dumb as hell; Topping, another Chinese company, puts out products that murder similarly-priced items from companies like Schiit in terms of objective measurements. Source gear engineering is pretty well understood, unlike headphone tuning there's not much art to it, and in this age of cheap mass manufacturing audio source gear is just another market that's being hit hard by cheaper Chinese products offering similar and sometimes superior performance and quality to established names. When I say the Tempotec dongle sounds as good and clear with an utterly black background as my desktop setup I'm talking about use with Etymotic ER4XRs and Focal Clears, not gaming headphones. It doesn't have the power of a desktop solution for harder to drive headphones, and for some people won't be sufficient for things like the HD6X0 series, but it outputs the full 2 volts that desktop DACs do and so for $40 can literally replace a $100+ desktop DAC. With regard to Bluetooth, I've owned or tried a bunch of Bluetooth earphones, and the ES100 Bluetooth receiver/amp is the only thing that had no audible hiss despite not having great power out; it has great software however, and I really appreciated the output level estimation it provides if you punch in the resistance and sensitivity of your headphones. Galaxy Buds, the original which are now available for around $100 USD, are amazing for use out and about but no Bluetooth headphones actually sound as good and clean as a dedicated solution powering wired headphones, yet.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:40
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Ok Comboomer posted:lol It's not eldritch it's merely ancient and I don't trust you to get the conjugation right, nevermind the variable empty spaces in the cadence. What you said that was so wrong, a non-comprehensive list: Extension cables. In 2020. Extension cables for analog signal were never great and if you don't care about the signal quality you can just go bluetooth with very little effort - I certainly do when I don't care. And since USB power is ~fine these days you can just use an okay DAC on a long USB cable and get all the benefits with none of the downsides. Extension cables are a disaster. making GBS threads on USB-C (or lightning dangit Apple) dongles which have been the #1 way to deliver high-quality audio on the go ever since the iPhone 7. Recommending "those Drop phones" as if Drop didn't have massive variance in quality. Also "earpods pro"? I mean, probably AirPods Pro, noted for their extremely lovely cost/quality and cost/durability ratio. They're great if the price and them being short-lived as gently caress don't bother you... and you don't live in literal tundra. Recommending an amp when the audio source is motherboard sound. Dear god why. Just why. The most mismatched thing you can possibly imagine it's like you're TRYING to get the worst bottleneck possible. The motherboard is, without a doubt, already the weakest link and a DAC over an amp is barely a cost and gets you so much better results. This is what made me go "what the gently caress". And making GBS threads on Wheeee when he's just plain right. endlessmonotony fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 18:43
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Wheeee posted:Read the linked measurements and review of that device, passing it over because 'AliExpress' is dumb as hell; Topping, another Chinese company, puts out products that murder similarly-priced items from companies like Schiit in terms of objective measurements. Source gear engineering is pretty well understood, unlike headphone tuning there's not much art to it, and in this age of cheap mass manufacturing audio source gear is just another market that's being hit hard by cheaper Chinese products offering similar and sometimes superior performance and quality to established names. I mean, I'm passing over it because ordering from AliExpress gets the package shat on by the whole mail/customs/payment setup and because I've had several cases of bad luck getting defective items on well-reviewed gear and if I never have to deal with Chinese sellers on returns or warranty it'll be a-ok by me. Plus I already have a good DAC so I'm pretty much set for a decade or more. I'm not disagreeing I just prefer to put in the extra money to get something where the seller has to follow EU standards on warranty and returns.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:48
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Ok sorry if I’m being unclear, to rephrase my original post: OP has a set of A2+, which already have a built in USB DAC that is probably fine for their needs and probably not that much worse than any other USB DAC they’re going to get in the $50-$200 range, which we have all either alluded to or named outright in the case of those Topping suggestions (Topping is fine, btw, I have no issue with them as a solid little brand making good cheap stuff). If all the OP wants is audio through the speakers they’re set with USB and they should absolutely use it over analog out. OP mentions Senn headphones with inline mic. Those would likely benefit from a DAC and headphone amp given that they’re probably being run from the MOBO right now. The A2+ don’t have a built in headphone amp, or headphone out, or preamp out. This presents a few options: 1) run one USB cord to the A2+ and a separate USB to a DAC + headamp of some sort/combination. 2) run one USB cord to a DAC/headamp with pre outs, connect those to the analog in on the A2+. The mic complicates this a bit- there are a few head amps/DACs that have mic ins, or OP could run a mic solution in parallel. I mentioned the Schiit one (I guess it’s super hip to hate on schiit now, but their $50-$300 stuff is fine and competitive with their peers. Magni is fine, Modi is fine, Sys is fine) because it’s all-in-one and I’m aware of it having both mic in and pre out for the A2+. The Apple dongle is fine. I use one, in fact. It’s good for headphones. My point about external gear was more about those boxes that people strap to their phones with elastics and poo poo. I apologize for being unclear. And yeah, no clue about “EarPods” I was phoneposting, I meant AirPods and yeah they’re super divisive but they do convenience extremely well, which is valuable to some people.
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Jul 31, 2020 19:20
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Yeah, the speakers are a non-issue, agreed on that. I'd just use an USB DAC - the AliExpress one does look fine. Apple's is also fine if you got the USB-C or don't mind connecting USB-C to USB-A host which is Very Forbidden by spec and as a result every adapter is an off-spec nightmare that may or may not be constructed with any skill whatsoever. I mean they're like $5 each so you can just keep buying 'em until you find one that works, but again, very averse to troubleshooting and experimentation here. I'd just look at whatever USB desktop DAC is reasonably cheap on your local Amazon and go from there, hooking the microphone audio through motherboard because I decidedly don't care about high audio quality there. And personally I use Griffin iTrip Clip and either Sony E9LP or Koss KSC75 when I'm on-the-go because my doctor has Heavily Advised against in-ears (due to my ears being very prone to infections) and a few close calls with cars. Convenience certainly has value. Not that the AirPods would be all that convenient in -20C because their batteries are not built for that. The iTrip Clip hides under my collar and thus stays warm enough to function.
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Jul 31, 2020 19:34
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Sorry that it looks like my question led to some bickering which actually looks to have been caused by confusion. Anyway, seems like there are opinions both ways saying that mobo audio is fine but maybe it's not. Obviously not cut and dry like some headphones are. (higher ohms, I believe?) One thing I'm learning is that it sounds like I should be using USB to connect my A2+ to my computer and not the audio cable. You're correct in that I have an in-line mic for the HD599s so whatever the headphones plug in to would need a mic in port.
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Jul 31, 2020 20:22
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A TRRS connector or 2x TRS?
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Jul 31, 2020 20:31
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Llamadeus posted:If they already sound acceptable then probably not? But some motherboard outputs... Where is this from? I have one of those motherboards and the sound is one of the most disappointing things about it.
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Jul 31, 2020 20:57
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gigabyte-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/ though he doesn't regularly test motherboard audio. Shame about the output impedance because the other metrics are at least acceptable.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:03
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I'd honestly love to know a "what's okay" on things available through German or Finnish stores as far as USB DACs go. My knowledge on it is way old.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:06
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endlessmonotony posted:I'd honestly love to know a "what's okay" on things available through German or Finnish stores as far as USB DACs go. My knowledge on it is way old. trigger warning: John Darko seems to be very fond of the Modi 3, and he’s in Germany right? Idk, if somebody needed a multi-input desktop DAC that looked nice, was plug-and-play (particularly with Apple products), and could run off USB power, and didn’t want to ask a lot of questions for around $100 I’d just tell them to get a Modi.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:17
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Llamadeus posted:https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gigabyte-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/ though he doesn't regularly test motherboard audio. Do you think using an external amp would solve the problem?
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Jul 31, 2020 22:50
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VelociBacon posted:Do you think using an external amp would solve the problem? If you run the audio through an external DAC you’re going to need an amplifier of some sort at the end of the chain regardless, whether it’s built into the same chassis as the DAC or its own separate box
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Jul 31, 2020 22:57
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Any recommendations for AirPod-style earbuds that have both prev/next track and volume controls on the bud?
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Aug 1, 2020 02:08
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blk posted:Any recommendations for AirPod-style earbuds that have both prev/next track and volume controls on the bud? In case you're not aware, those things can be assigned as the tap actions for AirPods.
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Aug 1, 2020 02:17
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VelociBacon posted:Do you think using an external amp would solve the problem? An external amp will just amplify the lovely motherboard sound, as noted what you need to fix the sound quality issue is an external DAC, which may or may not have an integrated amp; a DAC converts a digital signal to analog and is essential to any digital system, every device you've ever used since CDs became a thing has a DAC in it, whereas an amp simply amplifies an analog signal and so operates on ye olde garbage in, garbage out principle, and similarly every device technically amplifies the output signal. You need both, and your motherboard technically is both, it's just that it's a poo poo quality example of both and so if you care about audio quality you'll want to bypass it entirely via digital connection--USB or optical--to a different DAC/amp. Depending on your headphones, something like the Tempotec Sonata I linked on this page may be all you need/want, though if you want something with a nice volume knob on it you'll have to spend more. In terms of integrated units JDS Labs' Element II is good but also costs $400 so it fuckin better be, and Topping's DX3Pro measures phenomenally and is quite popular; it'd probably be my choice for that type of product based on price/performance. You can also mix and match a 'stack' of separate DAC and amp if you want. Of course do your own poking around on recommendations and ensure that if you have any specific connectivity requirements etc that a unit meets them, but in general for discrete desktop solutions JDS Labs and Topping are the two brands I'd shop being a picky rear end in a top hat with no tolerance for bullshit. fwiw i noticed an immediate and clear leap in sound quality moving away from my motherboard audio whereas the differences between competently engineered audio gear are minimal if even audible blk posted:Any recommendations for AirPod-style earbuds that have both prev/next track and volume controls on the bud? As noted you can control AirPods like that, but if you want something else the original Galaxy Buds run around $100 USD these days and are still one of the best sounding true wireless IEMs on the market. Wheeee fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 10:56
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Wheeee posted:As noted you can control AirPods like that, but if you want something else the original Galaxy Buds run around $100 USD these days and are still one of the best sounding true wireless IEMs on the market. Jumping up on this, do these true wireless IEM's actually sound good or just good enough if wireless is your main concern? I'm looking for buds that could replace my current wired IEM's for 1) music on the go, 2) at the gym and 3) discreet enough to use at work to listen to audiobooks, but I'll keep two pairs if I'm compromising too much wrt sound quality. Assuming yes, are the new Galaxy Buds Plus a good choice? I don't mind spending a little more if it's worth it.
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Aug 1, 2020 11:56
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If anybody wants to wade into Bluetooth exercise buds, Costco consistently has the plantronics backbeat fit for ~$50 ($100 on Amazon). I’ve dailied a set of the older model for 2 years now and I’m mostly very pleased. They’re semi open as well, so they give you some degree of situational awareness, though I wouldn’t bike with them. The big downside is that they’re joined in the back, but I’ve never had a big issue lying down when working out (like to bench, for example), though it would probably be uncomfortable to lie down longterm (don’t sleep with earbuds, it’s wicked bad for you) But I otherwise use them everywhere- commuting, walking around outside, in lab, doing chores and hobby work, tending to my pets/tanks, exercising, etc. Also the call/mic quality is good, if you plan to take calls or zoom with them or whatever. Overall I heartily recommend them for the price, esp because I assume that the top end of the market will move forward a bunch in the next two-to-three years and these can tide me over until the $200+ phones start really justifying their pricetags trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 12:05
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I got an "expensive" DAC/amp dongle, the Lotoo Paw S1, and it's superb. I prefer it to my normal desktop rig of a Khadas Tone Board and a JDS Labs Atom amp. I do miss having a volume knob when I'm using it, but it sounds so good I put up with that. I had been thinking about getting an amp with a balanced output, but the S1 has that and handles all of my hard to drive IEMs with ease. I don't have full size headphones, so this is all the power output that I need, really. And it's cheaper than the combined price of my Tone Board + JDS Atom. I'd probably sell those right now if society was functioning normally.
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Aug 1, 2020 19:10
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seravid posted:Jumping up on this, do these true wireless IEM's actually sound good or just good enough if wireless is your main concern? I'm looking for buds that could replace my current wired IEM's for 1) music on the go, 2) at the gym and 3) discreet enough to use at work to listen to audiobooks, but I'll keep two pairs if I'm compromising too much wrt sound quality. At $100 they're actually pretty good; if you can find the ER2XR around that price, and it sometimes dips that low, it's better sounding but also isolates far too much for safe use walking/riding outside imo. Moondrop's Starfield will also have a slightly clearer sound based on my experience with the KXXS which the Starfield is basically a newer cheaper clone of, but they're heavy with a shallow fit and don't stay seated well in my experience, and still have cables. I wouldn't use the Galaxy Buds if they weren't wireless, there's still some compromise with today's tech, but they are and the wired IEMs I'd use over them also cost more. As to Galaxy Buds Plus, I have no experience but my understanding is that they're more just different than an upgrade, and when it comes to TWS I wouldn't spend a lot of money as these things are disposable battery powered tech gadgets that'll be obsolete by better tech in a couple years, unlike analog headphones. Check out Crinacle's TWS list, he's basically the IEM guy and even if I don't quite share his preferences he's extremely consistent and my experience with IEMs tends to align with his observations; check his larger list for IEMs as a whole as well. While the Galaxy Buds and other TWS IEMs still aren't as good as good wired IEMs in similar price ranges, they're close enough imo to make the convenience worth the trade for mobile use. I've got a Bluetooth receiver amp, the ES100, which I bought to use my good IEMs and headphones at work without being tethered to my phone or desk, and I ended up not using it anymore just because of how loving amazing having no cables anywhere is. Wheeee fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 20:08
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Yeah, if I was pursuing audio quality over comfort and convenience with Bluetooth headphones I’d probably do some good wired phones to a Bluetooth receiver like the various FiiO ones on the market. Clip it to your shirt or stick it in your pocket iPod Shuffle style (remember those? I loving loved mine). Apropos of nothing I’ve had good experiences with the Taishan DAC for a couple of years now (5?) for getting AppleTV/PS4 + TV stereo to a vintage 2ch receiver. Definitely not a pretty ‘show off’ piece, you tuck that sucker behind your amp or whatever. But in case somebody needs Toslink to RCA for $30. trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 20:17
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Wheeee posted:In that price range Koss KSC75 or Koss Portapro are the poo poo; I was actually looking for my KSC75 the other day since they're great for use on like bike trails where you don't want sound isolation. I ended up buying the Koss KPH30iW because reviews said the Portapros have to be readjusted every time you pick them up and I knew that would get on my nerves. So far really happy with them and they sound great for $30 headphones, and I can hear my surroundings.
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Aug 1, 2020 21:40
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wormil posted:I ended up buying the Koss KPH30iW because reviews said the Portapros have to be readjusted every time you pick them up and I knew that would get on my nerves. So far really happy with them and they sound great for $30 headphones, and I can hear my surroundings. hope you got the beige ones. and yeah, they’re pretty rad
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Aug 1, 2020 22:41
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Wheeee posted:TWS Thanks, that's very helpful. The AKG N400 look great, but can't be used one bud at a time? That's odd and a deal-breaker for me. Also, unavailable for now in my corner of the world. Seems like the Galaxy buds and Sony WF-1000XM3 are the only ones that fit all the criteria. I don't need active NC, so Samsung it is, I guess. The Crinacle guy has me doubting which version to pick, though. Ok Comboomer posted:Yeah, if I was pursuing audio quality over comfort and convenience with Bluetooth headphones I’d probably do some good wired phones to a Bluetooth receiver like the various FiiO ones on the market. Clip it to your shirt or stick it in your pocket iPod Shuffle style (remember those? I loving loved mine). Usually, I would, but in this case I've got to prioritize convenience and practicality. True wireless and zero additional gizmos are a must.
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Aug 2, 2020 08:47
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What’s the consensus on THX amps these days? Has the hype/backlash worn off? Are they still the last word for “endgame or at least endgame on a budget” for solid state?
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Aug 3, 2020 14:15
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Is there an easy rec for some budget open back headphones? Probably $100 or less? The one that keeps popping up are the Philips SHP9500, is that a good option? It'd be for use on a computer listening to music (post-rock and some metal) with a (for better or worse) schiit fulla 3 as the dac.
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Aug 4, 2020 03:10
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nm, found it
wormil fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 05:40
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