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Okay so Code Geass. Season 1 gets lauded a lot as good and R2 being bad (or at least I've been told this by some friends for years) but honestly it didn't seem like a noticable drop in quality to me? I watched season 1 live back in the day but R2 I just didn't watch at all since people seemed down on it from day one. Then I binged it a couple weeks ago and while the change was jarring, it seemed fine to me as a choice. I did find the following hilarious though: Dipshit should've murdered his backstabbing fake brother immediately and without hesitation instead of letting that go on so long. The whole thing with the parents wanting an instrumentality of sorts and Lelouch just saying, "gently caress that." is also funny as hell to me, felt like they were trying to respond to Evangelion with that one and it felt showhorned into the show. Then cajoling Suzuku into his scheme to make himself into the big bad with Suzuku as the next Zero was also, really funny to me. Also that the Geass is never really explored in terms of origins beyond, "I dunno, a facility somewhere, and CC is from medival times." was rather lacking. Like Season 1 had a lot of bad ideas to me but I think the jarring part of how that ends with Euphemia murdering people brazenly and loving up the zone. Or the fact that a lot of it's premise on the nose was uncomfortable with the Japanese nationalists cooperating with Zero's rebellion and later the Chinese Federation, gently caress the whole thing about the Eunuchs and how they had to use those awful stereotypical voices. e: I'm not going to make a list because masterpieces of mecha feels like a weird discussion. Most of all the shows mentioned are really good imo but masterpiece feels like it's supposed to be universal and we're talking about sci fi mecha series and that's a line to thread that involves a lot of externalities. Do we consider crossover appeal, the genre itself as methods? I dunno, I just want to talk about good shows. Weird BIAS fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 03:01
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Sakurazuka posted:Depressing that there's nothing made past 1996 on anyone's list lol Even 'more recent' good stuff I can think of like Eureka 7 and Shin Mazinger are like 15 years old. I thought Gundam Thunderbolt was really good. And I haven't seen Promare but I've heard nothing but good things about it.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:02
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Yeah, the drop in quality is there but way overblown, there's obviously some nonsense meddling with the plot at the beginning and then they have to rush to catch up during the China saga, but they manage it all pretty well. The fights are where it really suffers, pretty much the only memorable fight from R2 is the last one, very dissapointing compared to the fun ground focused tactical fights of the first series.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:05
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Gaius Marius posted:Yeah, the drop in quality is there but way overblown, there's obviously some nonsense meddling with the plot at the beginning and then they have to rush to catch up during the China saga, but they manage it all pretty well. The fights are where it really suffers, pretty much the only memorable fight from R2 is the last one, very dissapointing compared to the fun ground focused tactical fights of the first series. Honestly yeah that I agree with, I can remember some of the fight's stakes in S1 better than R2 as well. Once you all start flying it gets just, eh??
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Aug 15, 2020 03:12
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Redline is a masterpiece of mecha shows, if cars can be considered mecha.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:15
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PringleCreamEgg posted:Redline is a masterpiece of mecha shows, if cars can be considered mecha. There is one car that transforms into a giant robot. Two, if you count Machinehead.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:27
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Anonymous Robot posted:I just can’t figure out how one sees Giant Robo without shelling out $100+. The current bluray on rightstuf is $70 tops, and it goes on sales (OOS right now though).
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Aug 15, 2020 03:31
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my two cents on "masterpieces" is that my mum, who is old enough to have seen the moon landings live, watched Turn A like two years ago and really enjoyed it I figure that counts for something
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Aug 15, 2020 03:37
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Assessor of Maat posted:my two cents on "masterpieces" is that my mum, who is old enough to have seen the moon landings live, watched Turn A like two years ago and really enjoyed it That’s probably a better endorsement than anything we’ll come up with here.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:47
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Weird BIAS posted:Okay so Code Geass. Season 1 gets lauded a lot as good and R2 being bad (or at least I've been told this by some friends for years) but honestly it didn't seem like a noticable drop in quality to me? I watched season 1 live back in the day but R2 I just didn't watch at all since people seemed down on it from day one. Then I binged it a couple weeks ago and while the change was jarring, it seemed fine to me as a choice. I did find the following hilarious though: Dipshit should've murdered his backstabbing fake brother immediately and without hesitation instead of letting that go on so long. The whole thing with the parents wanting an instrumentality of sorts and Lelouch just saying, "gently caress that." is also funny as hell to me, felt like they were trying to respond to Evangelion with that one and it felt showhorned into the show. Then cajoling Suzuku into his scheme to make himself into the big bad with Suzuku as the next Zero was also, really funny to me. Also that the Geass is never really explored in terms of origins beyond, "I dunno, a facility somewhere, and CC is from medival times." was rather lacking. The fact the first episode of the show has the Emperor yelling randomly about THE RAGNAROK CONNECTION and then it turning out after a whole lot of vague to just be Evangelion is now just an utter joke among my anime watching friends about overhyping your plot beats. As far as Mecha anime, apart from seconding the Turn A talk, I'm going to throw in a rec for Fang off the Sun Dougram. It's a fascinating show about a revolution, how they come about, and surprisingly well-done combats where the Dougram being assisted by foot soldiers is important, but you do have to get over its budget not being the highest (although it never sinks to the depths of off-model of original Gundam) and even the newer fan releases looking kinda rough due to there being apparently just the worst DVDs for it. Also I'm pretty sure the Code Geass creators were huge fans of it and VOTOMS (from the same director) and then did the weirdest take off of it.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:54
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Sakurazuka posted:Depressing that there's nothing made past 1996 on anyone's list lol Even 'more recent' good stuff I can think of like Eureka 7 and Shin Mazinger are like 15 years old. I mean, "Masterpiece" is a hell of a superlative. Not having recent ones makes sense just because time is an aspect of the judging. Something that seems amazing when it airs might lose some of the luster in six months as the novelty wears off, so leaving a decade plus to divide the truly great from the merely good is useful, even if it means some interesting shows get forgotten. (Orguss 2 doesn't get enough love.) In addition, the original meaning of masterpiece was the work a craftsman did to get accepted into a guild. It wasn't the finest work. It was the first work of sufficient quality to say someone was a real artist. Under that metric, I'd say the original Gundam is the genre's masterpiece. Not saying there were no good shows before it, but it was the one that made a wider audience treat the genre as "real" television, not something that sold toys to kids. If we're talking high quality mech anime from the last couple decades, leaving the contentious title of "masterpiece" aside for the moment, I figure there's a few things that are at least worth bringing up. (But, you know. Time will tell.) In no particular order... Promare. It's not too bright, but it's not trying to be. It's a vivid, joyful ride that embraces its nature as nonsense, with spectacular visuals and over the top action. SSSS Gridman. As a giant robot anime, it's a pretty decent time. The directing can shift from creepy and atmospheric to exciting action without missing a beat, the fights do an excellent job of feeling like super sentai action even as they allowed more freedom of motion than the typical giant monster movie's budget allowed. But that's not what pushes Gridman over the line into greatness. Underneath all the transformers references and fights, the interpersonal story shines. While Yuta can feel bland at times, Rikka and Sho do an excellent job of feeling like regular people caught up in tokusatsu nonsense, Anti's got a satisfying arc, and Akane turns out to be the center of the show as it goes, a demiurge whose attempts to escape her own misery only drag her further in. Add in Alexis Kerib being the cheeriest manipulative monster and the goofiness of the Neon Genesis gang, and you have one of the best shows in recent years period. Diebuster. It's not Gunbuster, and it knows it can't be, so it doesn't try. Instead, it carries on the energy of FLCL into a mech anime setting, complete with a protagonist trying to be mature and above-it-all until a pick haired bundle of psychotic energy smashes into the middle of a supposedly controlled life. (Nono and Haruko are opposites in a lot of ways, but their initial role is oddly similar). The way the structure mimics Gunbuster is clever, the energy is infectious, and the finale is a great complement to Gunbuster. I know it's unpopular to say, but I think it's a better show overall, building on the original while being very much its own animal. Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans. The best Gundam since Turn A, IBO shows the benefits of long running franchises, allowing a work to benefit from the viewer's long planted assumptions without being chained to them. The fights are some of the best in the genre, the humor usually lands and comes from the interplay of the characters rather than feeling forced, and the ending is unique, playing things out to their logical, brutal conclusion without being hopeless about it. And of course, people talk about Gurren plenty without me just echoing the compliments. There's more good, or at least interesting, stuff I didn't even mention, but there's enough in the highlight reel alone to say the genre's still got life in it. And I'd call everything I listed a masterpiece before giving VOTOMs that honor. (Seriously, VOTOMs was a massive disappointment.)
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Aug 15, 2020 04:28
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chiasaur11 posted:
I'm someone who loves VOTOMS deeply, and I have to say it's a very different show than what people including I had heard about it: even without spoilers, it's less "the realest of robot combat" and more "80's action movie where everything is exploding constantly as the protagonist shoots up an absurd number of enemies." Scopedog is best mech.
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Aug 15, 2020 04:40
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Does Simoun count as mecha? Been meaning to watch that.
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Aug 15, 2020 05:06
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gourdcaptain posted:Oh, hey, a fellow Diebuster fan! That show just feels weirdly overlooked or dismissed in general. I think timing is part of why Diebuster doesn't get as much love as it deserves. The last episode released just a year before Gurren, so it's kind of caught in that show's wake when people talk crazy mech anime moments. It also went in a really different direction than Gunbuster while depending on it for the impact of some big moments, which means the people who love it most are, well, people like me, who liked Gunbuster but not so much as to just want more Gunbuster. Basically, it got caught between some of the biggest gravity wells in over-the-top giant robot shows, and it takes hard work and guts to break out. As for VOTOMs, I agree on the Scopedog being great. (Seeing Mellowlink first did a lot to reinforce that feeling.) I think part of my problem was, again, seeing Mellowlink first which was more what I wanted from VOTOMs. There were things in VOTOMs I think of as real flaws, sure (the repetition of Gotho, Vanilla, and Coconna's plots, the way every arc slowed down for the middle section, the dull fights, pretty much everything about Fyana most of the time..), but I had it pitched to me as a grittier and more grounded show than it was a lot of the time, and that's definitely a problem with my expectations rather than with the show itself. VOTOMs is an interesting show, and there's enough good about it that I get why people dig it. But I can't love it, and I really wanted to.
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Aug 15, 2020 05:14
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chiasaur11 posted:I think timing is part of why Diebuster doesn't get as much love as it deserves. The last episode released just a year before Gurren, so it's kind of caught in that show's wake when people talk crazy mech anime moments. It also went in a really different direction than Gunbuster while depending on it for the impact of some big moments, which means the people who love it most are, well, people like me, who liked Gunbuster but not so much as to just want more Gunbuster. Dougram is a lot more the grounded mecha show people think of VOTOMS as in how it portrays mecha, IMHO, so it might be worth a watch if you're still interested in looking for that. It definitely doesn't get into the sheer wackiness of VOTOMS where people can explode a Scopedog by smacking it with an empty grenade launcher on foot. (I'm also someone who the sheer weird turns VOTOMS makes near the end(especially for the pitch people tend to give for it) work for a lot.) EDIT: Mellowlink's good, although I prefer the episodes that are mostly "Mellowlink vs. someone in a new weird setpiece environment" over when it actually tries to have a plot. (The episode with the crashed spaceship is probably my favorite.)
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Aug 15, 2020 05:25
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drrockso20 posted:The complete lack of anything mecha related is exactly why Time Etranger should be disqualified from this discussion, seriously I have no idea how they got away with that in a movie that's supposed to tie in with a mecha series Because it's really good. Schwarzwald posted:I don't, but I can tell that it was. Back then, same as now, a typical anime cour was about 12-13 episodes. If a series wasn't easily dividable, something was up. Fair point. I did take pictures of my copy of Roman Robo Anime Climax Selection a few months ago, which has a bunch of essays and commentary from staff about Combattler/Voltes/Daimos. I'm not good enough to read any of them, but there might be some hints in there. (and yeah, they are cell phone pictures. Sorry, but I don't own a scanner and I wouldn't take apart my rare and expensive book to do scans anyway)
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Aug 15, 2020 06:58
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MarsDragon posted:Because it's really good. Not denying it's quality, more that I'm amazed it was allowed to be funded in the first place
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Aug 15, 2020 07:03
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I feel like Mellowlink is really good.
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Aug 15, 2020 07:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:I feel like Mellowlink is really good. I agree! One thing I really liked about Mellowlink over VOTOMs proper was how proactive Mellowlink was. Where big chunks of Chirico's story felt like he was kind of drifting, Mellowlink always had an objective and was taking steps to achieve it. The fact that objective was "Kill mechs with a sniper rifle" only made it easier to root for him.
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Aug 15, 2020 07:51
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Chia covered IBO, but I want to also bring in that IBO works hard to make every character pull their narrative weight, even the background kids. There are no wasted characters in that entire show. There's something else to be said about how 'inoffensive' definitely shouldn't be a qualifier for masterpiece, IBO being a good example. I wanted Tim Curry for the dub of Alexis Kerib, the guy they got does the British but not nearly baritone enough, but I had no idea the equivalent villain in Superhuman Samurai Syber-Squad was voiced by ... Tim Curry. It's just too natural, lol. I've still not watched Turn A. Should probably do so if it's being mentioned in the same sentence regarding masterpieces. Ranzear fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 07:52
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Ranzear posted:Chia covered IBO, but I want to also bring in that IBO works hard to make every character pull their narrative weight, even the background kids. There are no wasted characters in that entire show. I don't think it's the best episode, or even my favorite episode, but the bit of IBO that impressed me most on that front was Vidar Rising. Pretty much everyone in the show's massive cast got a character moment, including a few notable developments and reveals (Nadi and Merribit, Julieta beginning to respect Vidar), with room for a fight scene in one episode, and it doesn't feel overstuffed or forced. (A smaller nice touch was how Elgar, Embi, Hirume, and Trow kept appearing in the background for the whole series. Just a touch of continuity to Tekkadan's background grunts that paid off in the finale.) And yeah, Turn A's the good stuff. It doesn't have as large a cast as IBO, but it also puts in much more effort than average in giving something to everyone. And something I think it does even better is having the agendas of those characters shape the plot. Every character of importance in Turn A has personal grudges, long term goals, and ideals, and what they do is primarily shaped by those. In most shows, someone committing treason is a shocking reveal. In Turn A, you go "Well, yeah. Of course that guy would betray the Moonrace. They don't want the same things any more." That leads to some of the same "kids playing at war" that can make G-Reco so frustrating, but I felt it was much better handled in Turn A.
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Aug 15, 2020 08:26
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Turn A is also just visually gorgeous, which isn't something I usually associate with Gundam series. Traditional pre-digital animation went out in Gundam with a bang in that series. It's got a really good soundtrack, too.
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Aug 15, 2020 08:37
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Sakurazuka posted:Depressing that there's nothing made past 1996 on anyone's list lol Even 'more recent' good stuff I can think of like Eureka 7 and Shin Mazinger are like 15 years old. It's because after then most mech shows are made by people that have only seen other mech shows. Insert grumpy Miyazaki here. Gunbuster is a masterpiece. War in the Pocket, Redline definitely counts, Turn A for all the reasoned mentioned, Giant Robo, Zambot. Zeorymer is bad, but it might be a masterpiece all the same.
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Aug 15, 2020 14:45
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Anonymous Robot posted:I just can’t figure out how one sees Giant Robo without shelling out $100+. Once it's in stock again the bluray regularly goes for like $45. Or just pirate it lol I'm surprised how many people say Gunbuster is a masterpiece, it's very well done but all the characters are too half baked for me Gankutsuo had a single mecha duel so it counts and it's one of the best anime ever made so that's my pick
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Aug 15, 2020 15:28
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Pootybutt posted:It rules that after 20+ years of Gasarakis and SSSS's and Frannxs all straining to think of something new or edgy or different to say w this formula, we've already done had the post-Eva thing that hits all the beats w panache, treats its characters w respect instead of like tropes and satisfyingly reaches the ending where the two raging god mech pilots, simulteanously and for the own reasons,just stop and go, "wait, love. It's Love I want. My answer is Love." and lands on the coveted Post Eva happy ending w no muss, no fuss, and we've done been had it for nearly 20 yrs itself. I know this was posted forever ago and this is pretty minor quibble but last episode notwithstanding gasaraki is way more an elaboration on patlabor 2 than eva. It's not even that good of a show but I'm convinced nobody else has actually watched it because literally everything people say about it online is wrong
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Aug 15, 2020 15:38
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Pootybutt posted:Does Simoun count as mecha? Been meaning to watch that. It's more of a jet/flying anime but god drat if it isn't one of my favorite shows ever. The questions about gender, religion, war and relationships got to me. And the ending being so untraditional just... mmf. I hope you enjoy it.
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Aug 15, 2020 16:12
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Hisone and Masotan is as much of a mecha show as Evangelion is, and it's very nicely put together.
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Aug 15, 2020 16:23
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Darth Walrus posted:Hisone and Masotan is as much of a mecha show as Evangelion is, and it's very nicely put together. Love that ED though. An ED for the ages. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 16:30
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Pootybutt posted:Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye rules too, one of my fave anime flicks of the 10's. I still can't forgive how they changed Grace O'Connor from the TV version.
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Aug 15, 2020 18:18
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Gunbuster worked very well for me, because it was blatantly combining everything anime fans of the 1980s liked and then it added the perfect dose of bittersweet. I enjoyed Simoun, but there was an odd time skip somewhere in the middle or near the end of that show and it felt weird to me. RahXephon also had a strange time gap like that too, I think? Still really like Code Geass for a bunch of reasons, both superficial and not. It's a show aiming for excessive theatricality, which I appreciate, and somehow manages to tie it all together in the end. I am also reminded that I ordered the Ultimate Collection of Votoms and am looking forward to rewatching the original show that way, even though the various OVAs were more of a mixed bag. That said, it is true the genre does seem to be in something of a decline lately. Very few new mecha anime are coming out these days, outside of already established properties. wielder fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 18:21
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wielder posted:That said, it is true the genre does seem to be in something of a decline lately. Very few new mecha anime are coming out these days, outside of already established properties. I guess nobody was that into Granbelm or Majestic Prince from awhile back? Expelled from Paradise counts and I liked that fine.
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Aug 15, 2020 18:33
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OBSOLETE was kinda OK, although there's something depressing about the mecha just being cast-off alien tools sold secondhand.
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Aug 15, 2020 18:38
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Pootybutt posted:I guess nobody was that into Granbelm or Majestic Prince from awhile back? Expelled from Paradise counts and I liked that fine. Yeah, it feels weird to say the genres dying when not only are there still shows comingmout but they're often among the best a season has to offer. Also idk if it ever really got subs but Shinkalion was very popular in Japan and went on for 76 episodes which is a long run for today's standards!
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Aug 15, 2020 18:40
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Anshu posted:I still can't forgive how they changed Grace O'Connor from the TV version. Didja not think she deserved redemption or was it that it turned out she was bein controlled the whole time?
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Aug 15, 2020 18:49
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Pootybutt posted:I guess nobody was that into Granbelm or Majestic Prince from awhile back? Expelled from Paradise counts and I liked that fine. Majestic Prince was very good, I agree, but that was 2013...and Expelled from Paradise came only a year later. Which feels like almost a decade ago. I admit though, never saw Granbelm myself. How good was that? GorfZaplen posted:Yeah, it feels weird to say the genres dying when not only are there still shows comingmout but they're often among the best a season has to offer. Also idk if it ever really got subs but Shinkalion was very popular in Japan and went on for 76 episodes which is a long run for today's standards! I'll take your word regarding Shinkalion, although looking up information about the series makes it sound like an exception. I wouldn't say "dying", to be clear. Just reiterating how we aren't getting as many mecha shows these days and most new properties don't leave much of a mark.
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Aug 15, 2020 18:50
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wielder posted:I admit though, never saw Granbelm myself. How good was that? I didn't watch it either. There's also Aquarion EVOL, from last decade, which I finished finally just a week ago and liked that a lot, too. Feels like the ideal version of what Kawamori was trying to do w that thing. Pootybutt fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 18:58
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The Gundam franchise has churned out plenty of solid mecha content this decade - there's Build Fighters, The Origin, IBO, Thunderbolt, and Build Divers: ReRise. They may not be the topmost gems of the genre, but they're perfectly good, solid shows at minimum.
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Aug 15, 2020 19:04
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Pootybutt posted:Didja not think she deserved redemption or was it that it turned out she was bein controlled the whole time? Both? The former wouldn't exist without the latter, and I don't think her character needed to be redeemed. Furthermore, reducing her importance the way they did was the most egregious example of a broader trend in the films to transfer narrative weight away from the female cast.
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Aug 15, 2020 19:41
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How about episodes 3-15 of Darling in the Franxx?
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Aug 15, 2020 19:44
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Gripweed posted:How about episodes 3-15 of Darling in the Franxx? DITF was always pretty bad. Post-episode 15 is just where it became undeniable where the show had been headed from the beginning.
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Aug 15, 2020 19:49
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