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Zurai posted:That is literally genocide though. 
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Aug 29, 2020 06:01
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First: Please Dorf me as a fleet officer / commander immune to retirement. Edit: Also when I die, feel free to redorf me immediately as "..." Jr. 1 A - Exo-operation 2 B - Improvement 3 A - To Boldly Go 4 B - Refit 5 B - Industrial Capacity SavageGentleman fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 10:17
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Zurai posted:That is literally genocide though. It's only genocide if they're people. We didn't genocide passenger pigeons or dodos did we? I suggest we explore if the Kookens are edible. The best way to motivate the populace to war would be to discover that Kookens taste great broiled in butter.
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Aug 29, 2020 13:44
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If we're gonna purge all Xenos I'd like to start with the Xenophobes.
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Aug 29, 2020 14:18
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it's not genocide, it's xenocide! 
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Aug 29, 2020 14:48
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Radio Free Kobold posted:it's not genocide, it's xenocide! It depends if Xenos have genotypes. There might be some cellular agglomerates that make a mockery of the concept of a genus.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:27
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maybe we could save debating being an extinction event for when it's relevant or possible? or even better, let's not debate it and not do it, people can live out their lebensraum fantasies on their own time.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:43
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Industrial Focus Dear god build more academies until we have 5. Enough officers to command our ships and crew to man them. It might also allow us to improve the training regimen of our junior officers and crewmen which will pay steep dividends if we aren't already doing so. Deeper command structures for mining and terraforming, which notably should have their own separate command structures unless an officer has both skills. The importance of academies cannot be overstated.
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Aug 29, 2020 16:05
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Zanzibar Ham posted:If we're gonna purge all Xenos I'd like to start with the Xenophobes.
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Aug 29, 2020 18:58
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Zanzibar Ham posted:If we're gonna purge all Xenos I'd like to start with the Xenophobes. Two of the three alien races we've encountered literally attacked us for no discernible reason beyond what can be assumed to be rampant xenophobia, so, kinda sounds like we're on the same page. More seriously, I just want us to win at the video game, and the AI looks like it's going "Gandhi in Civ I after developing nukes due to that weird underflow error" on us so peace is feeling like a less-than-viable option. And even if it were, it's becoming increasingly obvious that we're hemmed in on all sides by aliens and stuck kind of spinning our wheels until we can open that up a little. We're right now capable of, at most, one of the four Xs, and there's really not much more to Exploit in our current territory. Not an ideal gameplay scenario.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:30
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I always liked to abuse the "get an enemy's wreck in your territory and salvage it for better techs" mechanics in Stelaris, let's try this here as well! (I am just joking, Stelaris AI is fundamentally incapable of playing the game at a level where you could ever salvage something useful. The idea is still valid though  )
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Aug 29, 2020 19:38
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I don't want to invade or glass the planet or anything, just scan and rough up some ships to get information to guide our military development. It probably won't trigger an apocalyptic grudgewar since it's not different from what they've done to a few of our ships.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:51
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EclecticTastes posted:Two of the three alien races we've encountered literally attacked us for no discernible reason beyond what can be assumed to be rampant xenophobia, so, kinda sounds like we're on the same page. I really don't care if once we're on par with them militarily we start aggressively projecting our influence, but I don't like people using it as an excuse to throw down space-nazi rhetoric. Also you wanted to conquer them as soon as we ran into them.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:55
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I really don't care if once we're on par with them militarily we start aggressively projecting our influence, but I don't like people using it as an excuse to throw down space-nazi rhetoric. It's called "roleplaying". Do you also think my dorfed character is presently engaged in massive amounts of embezzlement? I mostly just pick a position consistent with what the persona I've decided on would want, in this case that's "wildly corrupt, barely-competent con man whose only concern is advancing himself, and conquering the galaxy gives him that much more room to advance without getting found out as having no idea how to actually govern".
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Aug 29, 2020 20:02
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EclecticTastes posted:It's called "roleplaying". Do you also think my dorfed character is presently engaged in massive amounts of embezzlement? I mostly just pick a position consistent with what the persona I've decided on would want, in this case that's "wildly corrupt, barely-competent con man whose only concern is advancing himself, and conquering the galaxy gives him that much more room to advance without getting found out as having no idea how to actually govern". My space-nazi rhetoric complaint isn't aimed at you specifically, and the second point that is is in response to your OOC answer based on your OOC vote.
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Aug 29, 2020 20:05
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I really don't care if once we're on par with them militarily we start aggressively projecting our influence, but I don't like people using it as an excuse to throw down space-nazi rhetoric. It's not an unreasonable course of action to want to burn all your enemies in a 4x game. I grant that maybe right now isn't the best time if we don't have resources to do so but I would definitely be in favour of proactively showing these Xenos the benefits of a pacifist outlook on life. Bear in mind we have yet to fire our weapons in anger and we have already had several acts of unprovoked aggression visited upon our diplomatic corps. I still think we should consider seeing what they are like with some fava beans and a glass of Chianti.
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Aug 29, 2020 20:21
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Z the IVth posted:It's not an unreasonable course of action to want to burn all your enemies in a 4x game. I grant that maybe right now isn't the best time if we don't have resources to do so but I would definitely be in favour of proactively showing these Xenos the benefits of a pacifist outlook on life. Bear in mind we have yet to fire our weapons in anger and we have already had several acts of unprovoked aggression visited upon our diplomatic corps. To quote the webcomic from which I derive my AV, "Corpses are remarkably nonviolent." Zanzibar Ham posted:and the second point that is is in response to your OOC answer based on your OOC vote. Oh, sorry, I see the confusion. The rationales given for my votes are all made in-character, and what I actually vote for tends to be a mix of in-character (favoring heavy military development and blowing poo poo up) and out-of-character (focusing on infrastructure to make production faster/more efficient). And don't get me wrong, I do want to defeat the factions that have made themselves our enemies, but IRL I'm much more in favor of taking things strategically (which is why I am extremely in favor of drawing out some of their ships to steal their technology, since Virtual Russian seems confident that it won't get us all killed and we could really use a leg up in terms of research to compensate for having two hostile factions on our doorstep along with a third faction of uncertain disposition).
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Aug 29, 2020 21:22
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EclecticTastes posted:More seriously, I just want us to win at the video game, and the AI looks like it's going "Gandhi in Civ I after developing nukes due to that weird underflow error" on us so peace is feeling like a less-than-viable option. And even if it were, it's becoming increasingly obvious that we're hemmed in on all sides by aliens and stuck kind of spinning our wheels until we can open that up a little. We're right now capable of, at most, one of the four Xs, and there's really not much more to Exploit in our current territory. Not an ideal gameplay scenario. If the Kooks or Bugs were going Civ 1 Gandhi on us, we'd be fighting off war fleets (or failing to do so). They're not. So far, they destroyed two scout ships in their home system and a star base on the warp point out of their home system. There's also a ton more to exploit in our territory. We have four tiny baby colonies (Luna, Europa, Makhov's Folly, and Freeshire, with a total combined population of about 36 million people) and several planets/moons worth colonizing (Adrastopol B-1, Accatran A-III Moon 5, Makho's Folly Moon are all low colony cost with millions of tons of high-accessibility TN materials; Accatran-A VIII Moon 4 has 50,000,000 tons of medium-accessibility Duranium (and 4,000,000 of Gallicite); Adrantis-A II is a freaking jackpot, etc etc).
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Aug 29, 2020 22:48
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Zurai posted:If the Kooks or Bugs were going Civ 1 Gandhi on us, we'd be fighting off war fleets (or failing to do so). They're not. So far, they destroyed two scout ships in their home system and a star base on the warp point out of their home system. There's also a ton more to exploit in our territory. We have four tiny baby colonies (Luna, Europa, Makhov's Folly, and Freeshire, with a total combined population of about 36 million people) and several planets/moons worth colonizing (Adrastopol B-1, Accatran A-III Moon 5, Makho's Folly Moon are all low colony cost with millions of tons of high-accessibility TN materials; Accatran-A VIII Moon 4 has 50,000,000 tons of medium-accessibility Duranium (and 4,000,000 of Gallicite); Adrantis-A II is a freaking jackpot, etc etc). Alright, to put it more precisely, we're running out of new things to Exploit. I don't want to be overly critical here, but decades upon decades of mining our existing holdings does not sound particularly exciting. We've already secured all those lucrative planets/planetoids, so we're gonna set up facilities on them and then they're just gonna do their thing automatically. So, if that's all we're gonna do for the next little while, maybe we can skip to the part where we've already done that and are finally ready to start expanding again, rather than pausing it every few years. I think that's really the core of the motivation behind the "murder some aliens" voters, is we just wanna get to the part where we put all those cool warship designs to use rather than letting them get all old and obsolete while we wait for our resource numbers to go up.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:07
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That, and we're designing everything on half-assed guesstimates of what the NPRs have. Get some data and we can actually design to purpose.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:09
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EclecticTastes posted:Alright, to put it more precisely, we're running out of new things to Exploit. I don't want to be overly critical here, but decades upon decades of mining our existing holdings does not sound particularly exciting. We've already secured all those lucrative planets/planetoids, so we're gonna set up facilities on them and then they're just gonna do their thing automatically. So, if that's all we're gonna do for the next little while, maybe we can skip to the part where we've already done that and are finally ready to start expanding again, rather than pausing it every few years. I think that's really the core of the motivation behind the "murder some aliens" voters, is we just wanna get to the part where we put all those cool warship designs to use rather than letting them get all old and obsolete while we wait for our resource numbers to go up. So in fact the only X you're interested in is the eXtermination one. Expansion, Exploration, and Exploitation are boring. Got it.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:11
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Zurai posted:So in fact the only X you're interested in is the eXtermination one. Expansion, Exploration, and Exploitation are boring. Got it. We're neither expanding nor exploring. Literally our most recent attempt at exploration led directly into the Voss system, which is both known and also hostile. Similarly, we already own the systems in which all those resources you mentioned are present in, expansion would be claiming new systems. Right now we are only exploiting, and the only way towards further exploration and expansion seems to be through one of our assorted rivals, unless we get phenomenally lucky and find a jump point to an unoccupied system.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:35
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quote:Similarly, we already own the systems in which all those resources you mentioned are present in, expansion would be claiming new systems. We definitely, decidedly do not own Adrantis. The sum total of our presence there is an automated sensor post and a team of scientists. I also only checked the systems one jump from Sol because we don't have the industrial capacity or military to project power past that point. quote:Right now we are only exploiting, and the only way towards further exploration and expansion seems to be through one of our assorted rivals, unless we get phenomenally lucky and find a jump point to an unoccupied system. Incorrect. There are still known, unexplored Jump Points in Esteban and Caliban, neither of which are under enemy control, and unsurveyed potential jump points in Balorius, Olympia, and Caliban, again none of which are under enemy control. Esteban and Olympia, in particular, are both closer to Sol than any known extrasolar polity (I'll admit that Balorius and Caliban are a bit dicey given their proximity to the Bugs and Kooks, respectively). And, once more with feeling, we do not have the capacity to profit from an offensive war at this time. Even assuming we emerge relatively unscathed from a battle against the Kooken fleet, we can't do anything with Voss. We do not have the troop transport capacity to invade a homeworld and we don't have the military capacity to glass one even should we want to. We can't sit ships in orbit of their homeworld to keep them from building new shipyards and new ships from those yards because we don't have enough ships to rotate them through. If you want to wage effective war on the Kooks, then you should be voting for industrial expansion of our existing colonies in this vote because it's the only way to actually get what you want. Zurai fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 00:05
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Zurai posted:We definitely, decidedly do not own Adrantis. The sum total of our presence there is an automated sensor post and a team of scientists. I also only checked the systems one jump from Sol because we don't have the industrial capacity or military to project power past that point. I would personally contend that since the system is, to my knowledge, pretty much uncontested, that our flag is firmly planted and we're just waiting on a colony ship or three to make it official, but I'll cede the point that we have not yet fully solidified our presence in Adrantis. Also, fixing that latter point should be a fairly high priority for us, overriding most other concerns. Zurai posted:Incorrect. There are still known, unexplored Jump Points in Esteban and Caliban, neither of which are under enemy control, and unsurveyed potential jump points in Balorius, Olympia, and Caliban, again none of which are under enemy control. Esteban and Olympia, in particular, are both closer to Sol than any known extrasolar polity (I'll admit that Balorius and Caliban are a bit dicey given their proximity to the Bugs and Kooks, respectively). This is good to know, I didn't realize just how many jump points we had. It can be hard to keep track of exactly how much stuff is laying around, and I guess I'd just assumed we were out of jump points given how penned-in we looked. That said, thinking about it, jump point exploration has generally not worked out very well for us, and checking those points out, as you acknowledge, could lead us back to the bugs, or could just as easily lead us to a fourth unfriendly alien race that we'll then need to add to our list of problems. Based on how I personally play 4X games, the way I'd proceed would be clearing out the regions I've already mapped before risking the unknown, to limit how many fronts I need to defend. That said, I was never opposed to your point of needing to build things up before we take the fight to them, so much as I would like us to snag a few wrecked ships through Virtual Russian's plan to lure them into a skirmish, both because it would help us catch up to their technology, and because it would keep all those ship designs he keeps asking for from going to waste. And, yeah, I would, in fact, just like to see at least a few space battles in this LP, especially since allying with everyone to recreate the United Federation of Planets is not looking like a viable option.
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Aug 30, 2020 00:34
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And I'm not opposed to some space battles, either. In fact, if Virtual Russian thinks he can lure a defeatably-sized enemy fleet into Accatran, I am 100% for it. I just don't want to see the game end super early because of a combination of terrible luck (seriously, I have never had an NPR spawn two jumps from Sol, nor three within three jumps, this is either godawful luck or some overzealous galaxy generation settings biting us in the rear end) and overly-aggressive voting. I mean, hell, I want to see how well the battlecruisers I designed actually stand up to the competition just as much as anyone else does! I'm enjoying this game and want to see it keep going is all, and I'm really afraid of what will happen if we push too hard on the NPRs while we're still on shaky economic and military grounds.
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Aug 30, 2020 00:42
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Let's talk maps!quote:Here is the current map of our galaxy. Cyan dots denote colony cost 2 planets, blue dots represent habitable planets. Green circles around systems show that we have colonies in this system. Orange dots represent unexplored jump points, and red circles around the system tell us that the system has gravitation anomalies that could be jump points. Virtual Russian posted:
To ensure our security directing our two exploration ships to Esteban and Olympia would seem prudent. At least then we will know if one of those jump points leads to the Bugs homeworld, or another route to Voss. I don't think there is any benefit in leaving jump points that close to Earth unexplored. The jump points in Balorius and Caliban could be riskier to explore, as both involve flying one system away from people we know like to shoot up unarmed ships. I haven't played Aurora, so I can't really judge the probing attack based on my experiences in Master of Orion II and Stellaris. The sense I have is that the logistics of launching an attack are more complicated in this game.
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Aug 30, 2020 01:03
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Virtual Russian posted:
Or fleet is still too small to deal with the other races if they make a real attempt, but we need to get a lot better logistic train from the other colonies. We also can't afford to throw away trained crew right now, so refits as best we can - they'll be useful for colony protection duties for a while too. Balanced approach to exploring for the reasons others gave. SPEED IS LIFE but we need to get our ducks in a row to keep our ships flying!
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Aug 30, 2020 03:12
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I didn't end up getting time to close the vote, so i'm happy to let it run until after I'm done work tomorrow. Also once we get to the ship vote I'm going to put the raid to a vote. I agree we are a tad premature for a big war, but I also agree that we need some exciting stuff to happen...
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Aug 30, 2020 04:44
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I would love to see these dueling viewpoints couched in rp/in universe style, I think it takes some of the heat out while still allowing for v legitimate philosophical differences.
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Aug 30, 2020 06:47
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sebmojo posted:I would love to see these dueling viewpoints couched in rp/in universe style, I think it takes some of the heat out while still allowing for v legitimate philosophical differences. *BEGINNING TRANSMISSION* My fellow Earthicans, we've seen a lot of heated debate regarding the problem of unchecked aggression from our enemies, both the mysterious, unnamed space insects, and of course, the corporate-owned government of the Kookens Pleasure Pit™ Protectorate. Some believe we should just sit here and take it, do nothing to oppose these acts of war, just because our adversaries "vastly outclass our military in every way", "lay well outside our maximum effective logitical range", and "have rights as sentient beings". I say enough is enough! As immortal god-king- I mean definitely legitimate governor, of Adrastapalooza gently caress you that's what it's called you can come on down to my palace- I mean governor's mansion, and fistfight me if you don't like it, I have seen my share of this conflict play out in my own front yard, as scout ships from the Kookens Pleasure Pit™ Protectorate violated the borders of my eternal dominion-I mean lawfully entrusted area of extremely serious responsibility and no malfeasance whatsoever. These ultracapitalist robber barons did this with absolute impunity, in flagrant disregard for my- I mean our sovereignty. Such actions cannot go unanswered. Of course, I've been informed that our lazy, incompetent- I mean, esteemed and highly respected researchers have yet to fully develop the necessary technology for us to effectively declare war on the Protectorate corporate headquarters on Voss. However, there has been talk of luring a few of their ships into our space in order to strip them for parts- I mean, make them answer for the tragic destruction of the Maler. This is a plan I believe is not only feasible, but necessary. Not just for the technology we'd surely acquire. Not just to spill the blood of the oligarchical bastards that dared to oppose us. But to show the galaxy that the people of Earth shall not be pushed around! If you hit us, we will hit back! Some say the proposed tactics are "cowardly" or "underhanded", but let me tell you something about some other "cowards" I know. They were sick and tired of being pushed around, and decided to stand up for themselves, but did they fight straight-up, man-to-man? No! They employed guerilla tactics, subversion of enemy soldiers, and every cheap trick in the book, and in the end, they won their freedom! That's right, I'm talking about the Na'vi! And Avatar made over a billion dollars! Don't you want to make over a billion dollars? I urge you to vote in favor of Operation Chop Shop! Don't do it for me, do it for James Cameron! *END TRANSMISSION*
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Aug 30, 2020 09:14
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sebmojo posted:I would love to see these dueling viewpoints couched in rp/in universe style, I think it takes some of the heat out while still allowing for v legitimate philosophical differences. This is what I'm also in favor of, and have been thinking about how to best implement. I think a lot of the fun of past LPs I've enjoyed comes from the debate around decisions, and I enjoy that we have strong opinions in here. However, I agree with those that feel a bit uncomfortable when we discuss genocide in really cold calculating terms. I get that its just a game, but there is something a little off-putting about it. That said, I don't want to rule anything off the table, this is a game where nuking a planet to oblivion is a valid and sometimes justifiable game move. If we get to that point naturally I'm not stopping anything. I don't want to blow this out of proportion, its just something small I've seen brewing and wanted to address. I'm going to tally votes and get the ship vote underway. I'm also planning to do a big update on everyone's dorfs, you'll see your service record, stats, and personality. From now on, I'll try to post this info whenever I dorf someone. I will also generate a new officer from now on, so you don't inherent a service record and then promptly retire. On RP elements in the LP. I'd like to include the dorfs in more of the RP elements of the LP. Based on trends in the thread I might list of a few factions, such as "militarists" or "pacifists", those sort of broad and vague terms. If people want, they can sign up for these factions, and that will let me know how to include their dorf in RP interpretations of events. These factions are RP only, and have no bearing on how you vote or anything like that. Would people be interested in that?
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Aug 30, 2020 19:27
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Gentlepeople, we need a war. Not because the aliens are a threat to us. Not because it would be great for the economy. But because of this uniform. Do you see this uniform? This one I'm wearing? It's dreadfully bare of medals. We need war until I need a second uniform just to hold all the medals. And, most importantly, we need me in the flagship so I don't miss out on any of the glory. Thank you for your time.
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Aug 30, 2020 19:34
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EclecticTastes posted:*BEGINNING TRANSMISSION* Orbital Oligarchs endorses this message! Orbital Oligarchs is a non-profit
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Aug 30, 2020 20:19
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+++++++++++++ Policy Vote Results for the 2120s +++++++++++++ Industrial Focus A. Exo-operation Off World Colonies B. Improvement Exploration C. Balanced Approach The Fleet B. Refit - this one was extremely close, I really should have imparted how short of crew we are. I was going to restrict us to low cost refits, but because of how close the vote was for outright new ships I'm going to wave any restrictions. Tech Focus – what should be the focus of a major technological push? B. Industrial Capacity +++++++++++++ End of Policy Results +++++++++++++ Ship Contest Ship contest time. This one is very easy, we need a design for each military yard, for the purpose of refitting the Zeus, Artemis, and Gladius class vessels. I'm placing zero restrictions on what these ships should look like, beyond that they are military ships and can be refit from the original class. Also to make this timely, please try to keep the new parts to a minimum, I've kept up with weapons tech at least. Did I say easy? I meant really hard and requiring a ton of fine tuning. As usual, feel free to toss any civilian designs you come up with at me. A new high capacity colony ship, with room for infrastructure perhaps, would be great! https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c5ev21zfmdxyhl/AuroraDB.db?dl=0 Minor rules alteration Each designer please only one submission per category/shipyard. Of course though, multiple designs that can be produced from a single tooling count as one submission. ++++++++ Bonus Vote ++++++++ Do we authorize the Admiralty to conduct operations against the KPPP? Should B and C total more votes than A, but A has still won, we will count the C votes as Bs and conduct an unarmed raid. A. Conduct no operations, we will only shoot down a Kooken vessel should it stray into our territory unprovoked. B. Conduct a reconnaissance raid, but do not fire on the Kooken vessels. In this scenario I will get up close, paint as many ships as possible with active sensors, and then quickly retreat/die. C. Conduct a raid, which will include firing on Kooken vessels so as to provoke a small reprisal, from which we can gain a hulk with some luck. This could also give us information on Kooken armor capabilities. ++++++++ End of Bonus Vote ++++++++
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Aug 30, 2020 20:29
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C, let's poke the hive
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Aug 30, 2020 20:41
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Question: is there a way of seeing how costly a refit would be from the ship designer?
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Aug 30, 2020 20:51
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Virtual Russian posted:This is what I'm also in favor of, and have been thinking about how to best implement. I think a lot of the fun of past LPs I've enjoyed comes from the debate around decisions, and I enjoy that we have strong opinions in here. However, I agree with those that feel a bit uncomfortable when we discuss genocide in really cold calculating terms. I get that its just a game, but there is something a little off-putting about it. This is sort of a problem endemic to the 4X genre and grand strategy games in general. Most of the ways to win at those kinds of games involve either literal or cultural genocide (even many "diplomatic" victories imply this), and those that don't mostly involve leaving for another planet/ascending to a higher plane of existence so it's not like you're sticking around to be anyone's pal. So, discussing gameplay in a serious manner is often going to end up leading into blithely discussing digital genocide, at least when the topic is conflict with the various alien races. Part of this seems to be the implicit understanding that, because that's just how 4Xs tend to work, we're probably going to have to completely clear some of these guys off the board eventually. This is why I prefer to take it to a comedic extreme, so it's funny rather than tragic. Also, Bonus Vote: C
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Aug 30, 2020 20:58
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A, the dick doesn't enter the beehive until it's large enough to absorb some stings without catastrophic consequences
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Aug 30, 2020 21:08
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C Fine I will tone down the Purging of the Xenos. Let's just gently grill them.
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Aug 30, 2020 21:18
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OddObserver posted:Question: is there a way of seeing how costly a refit would be from the ship designer? Not in C# Aurora as far as I know, perhaps one of the more experienced people here will know. There is a formula you can use, but I just eyeball the tonnage to be close. Then I spacemaster the tooling and check manually what the cost is. Welcome to C# Aurora, its so much better, but for some reason a lot of simple quality of life stuff did not make the transition from VB Aurora.
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Aug 30, 2020 21:36
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