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The game on launch is legit one of the coolest MMOs I ever played. It had all kinds of fun and interesting stuff for PvPers, crafters, griefers, there was a social aspect, trading, etc. I had one of 4 houses on Freedich because I planned out my route in beta got enough gilda, and spammed my glider through the ocean all the way out to Freedich. I then stealthed stage packs onto my house and turned them in when it was 100% safe and got myself a trade ship nearly solo. Archeage 2 will probably have a bunch of stupid pay to win poo poo baked into it, but I'm going to keep an eye on it.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:35
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Cardboard Fox posted:When I was very young, there was an EGM magazine (think of a paper book, but with colored pictures some unholy fusion between SWG and EVE would be the MMOest MMO it'd have to be a new IP though so nothing is constrained by Star Wars Canon
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Sep 10, 2020 23:52
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) with an article about an upcoming Star Wars MMO. The magazine claimed that you could create a unique character in this Star Wars universe and do whatever you wanted.
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It was cool just being a regular Star Wars dude running around and not the chosen one killing devil princes all the time. It made interacting with big bad poo poo more impactful than other MMOs. I remember coming back to Theed after a hunting trip and a shuttle landed in the middle of the city. We crowded around and loving Darth Vader got out and talked to us. Blew my mind as a much younger gamer.
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Sep 11, 2020 00:24
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eonwe posted:The game on launch is legit one of the coolest MMOs I ever played. It had all kinds of fun and interesting stuff for PvPers, crafters, griefers, there was a social aspect, trading, etc. I kind of feel like it required you to do that, I lucked into some time to get in at launch and steal a good plot but the poors really had to fight for any space at all. Or you could just be that one goon that planted trees on the bottom of the map. So limited land will probably be dropped, and thus a lot of the appeal of the game. I just hope they are actually given the ability to fix blatantly broken things this time instead of the bizarre contractual stuff they had before.
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Sep 11, 2020 01:56
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CuddleCryptid posted:I kind of feel like it required you to do that, I lucked into some time to get in at launch and steal a good plot but the poors really had to fight for any space at all. Or you could just be that one goon that planted trees on the bottom of the map. So limited land will probably be dropped, and thus a lot of the appeal of the game. lots of goons had to get land in Windscour Savannah, the ugliest zone in the entire game
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Sep 11, 2020 02:38
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DRWN posted:Heart and soul of the genre? Who cares about that when you can print money?
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Sep 11, 2020 11:48
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised some MMO developers really, really want a single play area for everyone to claim their spot on, but they refuse to do any sort of research as to how many players they're going to get and expand the size to fit.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:26
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eonwe posted:The game on launch is legit one of the coolest MMOs I ever played. It had all kinds of fun and interesting stuff for PvPers, crafters, griefers, there was a social aspect, trading, etc. Id be curious to see what AA2 would be like with Trion removed from managing the game. There seemed to be some really serious issues between XL and Trion, and considering Trion's reputation I am not sure if most of the blame should be on XL. I mean fucks sake, the game went down for like two weeks at one point with Trion offering damned near zero explanation. The game was seriously fun though. I was willing to ignore the exploiting and a lot of other issues because of that. Even scrambling to get a plot of land in the early days was kind of fun. Standing around a plot running a macro hoping to snipe an expiring plot with dozens of other people was one of those weird social experiences that you dont have in MMOs very often these days.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:46
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DapperDraculaDeer posted:Id be curious to see what AA2 would be like with Trion removed from managing the game. There seemed to be some really serious issues between XL and Trion, and considering Trion's reputation I am not sure if most of the blame should be on XL. I mean fucks sake, the game went down for like two weeks at one point with Trion offering damned near zero explanation. Huh, apparently Trion is = WildTangent, and the only place I've seen WT stuff is adware and malicious toolbar crap.
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Sep 11, 2020 23:21
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Freakazoid_ posted:I guess I shouldn't be surprised some MMO developers really, really want a single play area for everyone to claim their spot on, but they refuse to do any sort of research as to how many players they're going to get and expand the size to fit. It's not too unheard of, EVE pulls it off pretty well. The big difference is that IIRC from whatever years ago you couldn't push people off their land as long as they kept up their rent payments, so if someone is sweaty enough to log in at launch and grab land they can just keep it forever.
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Sep 12, 2020 01:30
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DapperDraculaDeer posted:Id be curious to see what AA2 would be like with Trion removed from managing the game. There seemed to be some really serious issues between XL and Trion, and considering Trion's reputation I am not sure if most of the blame should be on XL. I mean fucks sake, the game went down for like two weeks at one point with Trion offering damned near zero explanation. Trion definitely has some blame, but XL Games was pretty notorious about refusing to update their game in a way to make it palatable to an NA audience. A lot of the way the game was designed had pay to win sort of baked into it, and when they tried to relaunch as Unchained they just stripped out the cash stop elements but without any other changes. Unchained was a pretty big mess even by MMO standards.
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Sep 12, 2020 03:30
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Why do we even have cash shops in MMOs these days? People have been paying $15 a month since Everquest. I have no problems going back to that model if it means removing the cash and pay to win shops entirely. Of course, some executive is sitting in a boardroom with a hardon just thinking of ways to have a $15 monthly fee AND a cash shop with pay to win.
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Sep 12, 2020 03:49
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Cardboard Fox posted:Why do we even have cash shops in MMOs these days? People have been paying $15 a month since Everquest. I have no problems going back to that model if it means removing the cash and pay to win shops entirely. This already exists, buy to play, mtx, "buy gold with money" equivalent, and a sub all in one game
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Sep 12, 2020 04:15
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pay a monthly sub, buy 30 bikinis and a mount every week
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Sep 12, 2020 04:17
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Cardboard Fox posted:Why do we even have cash shops in MMOs these days? People have been paying $15 a month since Everquest. I have no problems going back to that model if it means removing the cash and pay to win shops entirely. sub + cash shop was the original cash shop model when it became a thing in korean mmos free to play + cash shop was at least a marginal improvement over that
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Sep 12, 2020 04:23
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Cardboard Fox posted:Why do we even have cash shops in MMOs these days? People have been paying $15 a month since Everquest. I have no problems going back to that model if it means removing the cash and pay to win shops entirely. Because developers make much more money with a few whales in a cash shop than with a sub
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Sep 12, 2020 07:20
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Cardboard Fox posted:Why do we even have cash shops in MMOs these days? People have been paying $15 a month since Everquest. I have no problems going back to that model if it means removing the cash and pay to win shops entirely. Something a lot of people have posited is that the only games which still succeed in this model--WoW and FF14--do so purely on the strength of their respective brands. For a long time, Blizzard and Square both developed a dedicated fanbase that connected deeply with basically every major release, and the staying power of their MMOs is basically trading on that nostalgia as both a way to bring people in who might otherwise not play a MMO, and a way to keep them there by going "hey, this is a reliable outlet for this sort of content you grew up liking and still really like." With a new/untested IP, you're going to have a harder time selling people on a subscription on top of the game price, and people are extremely hesitant about subscription games these days, in a way they aren't hesitant about other subscription services like Netflix. Probably this is because a game is a single, more active thing; you're paying for just the one content-unit instead of a bunch of them, and you have to actively engage with it in a way that you don't when watching TV. The argument then becomes not "are subs outdated" but "how do you get a brand strong enough to make a sub work," and that's a much more difficult question to tackle, but it's also one a studio can actively build towards. You could also hook a strong brand from licensing, but you have to back that up with a really good game so it doesn't collapse either. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 07:45
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I think a big stumbling block with making a MMO we want to play is the yawning chasm between what MMO lifers want from a game and what's marketable enough to justify the huge expenditure of resources needed to make a MMO. The more a MMO moves toward potential mass market success, the less it fits the description of what most of us would consider a MMO. Absent of a small indie MMO success story we still haven't seen, I don't see what can break this stalemate.
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Sep 12, 2020 12:52
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MMOs need less subs and more doms imo
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Sep 12, 2020 15:00
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With FF14 introducing (or at least popularising) "hey you can level every class on your character so its your character and you never have to make an alt" it's tough to think of future MMOs that just completely ignore that. I would consider going back to Guild Wars 2 sometimes but the early story sucks in that game and I don't want to re-experience it. The early story also sucks in FF14, probably even moreso, but you only need to experience it once.
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Sep 12, 2020 15:15
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A lot of people sorta dislike that bit of ff14, because it doesn't let you do race/class combos without playing through the entire game again.
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Sep 12, 2020 15:26
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Biowarfare posted:Huh, apparently Trion is = WildTangent, and the only place I've seen WT stuff is adware and malicious toolbar crap. Trion isn't Wild Tangent, both Trion and Wild Tangent got bought by Gamigo. The Trion games are in various states of maintenance mode - The Gamigo team on Rift is still trying to figure out how to add new fights to the game to the point where they are testing their ability to implement raid mechanics by literally sticking a "test rabbit please ignore" raid boss in the newbie zones. The rift twitter has nothing to do with the game, it's amazing - it's just stuff like "What are your hopes and fears this summer? :X" kedo posted:It's mostly the latter. Most MMOs these days (let alone most video games in general), simply aren't made with mechanisms that accommodate that sort of emergent gameplay. SWG and UO are the only ones I can think of that were open-ended enough to allow players to do the sort of thing you're talking about. The introduction of instancing and the elimination of player housing and non-combat styles of gameplay took a lot of the heart and soul out of the genre, but they also widened its appeal to pull in a hell of a lot more players. DRWN posted:What was a good MMO? bewilderment posted:"Towns are a lobby, everything else is instanced" doesn't always work as a model but a bunch of MMOs are heading that way anyway even if they nominally have an overworld. If you're not levelling a new job then FF14's open world is basically devoid of other people most of the time and right now it's only populated because the current event incentivises participating in low level public events. I'm convinced that "MMORPGs" as a genre is just a collective delusion that we've all had since 1999. Half the games we call MMORPGs don't even have core gameplay loops in common. We've got people that pine for the days of full PVP loot, crafting, building houses, cooking, and yet for some reason we are looking to games descended from Everquest - tab targeting games about doing quests and raiding - to provide it instead of something like Conan Exiles, a game about crafting, building houses, cooking, and PVP. Eve Online isn't lumped with multiplayer strategy games, instead we are going to pretend that it's more like Guild Wars 1 than any other genre. It's absurd. The only thing these games have in common is persistence, and even that is leaking into every other type of game on earth. I'm happy with the state of what I am calling the "Tab Targeting Genre" tho.
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Sep 12, 2020 17:26
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Truga posted:A lot of people sorta dislike that bit of ff14, because it doesn't let you do race/class combos without playing through the entire game again. Also you really only get to level one class through questing, so if that's what you like to do you're hosed.
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Sep 12, 2020 22:18
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I've been playing MMOs since UO and personally, I don't want the same things out of them now that I did as a 15 year old (other than a vague sense of being in a virtual world that feels fun to explore). Not sure why tab-targeting remains such a sore spot for people; it's a perfectly fine system to build a game around--why reinvent the wheel if you don't need to? 8 years later, the peak of my MMO enjoyment remains The Secret World, which I'd still be playing if it didn't die to the usual Funcom stuff. Cue 3 pages of people saying it was bad and the combat sucked. Amante fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 22:22
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Amante posted:I've been playing MMOs since UO and personally, I don't want the same things out of them now that I did as a 15 year old (other than a vague sense of being in a virtual world that feels fun to explore). Not sure why tab-targeting remains such a sore spot for people; it's a perfectly fine system to build a game around--why reinvent the wheel if you don't need to? There is a way to download the old client and play as your old character but the server is kind of a mess.
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Sep 12, 2020 22:43
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MMORPGs are just chat rooms with extra rules and restrictions. Sometimes, rarely, the side game is engaging fun and cool. But at their core the MMORPG is an interactive chat room.
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Sep 12, 2020 23:57
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Defiance Industries posted:Also you really only get to level one class through questing, so if that's what you like to do you're hosed. I recently came back to the game and decided to level a different class, it was really weird. I basically had to google for level-appropriate leves and a guide to level-appropriate regions (maybe there's a quest or two left). I wound up leveling through random dungeons, which was easy/fast as a healer. But I'm not convinced this system is perfect or better than the traditional "just level another alt" approach.
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Sep 13, 2020 10:20
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busalover posted:I recently came back to the game and decided to level a different class, it was really weird. I basically had to google for level-appropriate leves and a guide to level-appropriate regions (maybe there's a quest or two left). I wound up leveling through random dungeons, which was easy/fast as a healer. But I'm not convinced this system is perfect or better than the traditional "just level another alt" approach. Generally speaking for FF14 levelling up other jobs the way to do it is doing your daily 'roulettes' that you can access to, which tries to match you up with people actually progressing the story or otherwise doing roulettes based on what roulette you're doing (low level dungeon, raid, trial, etc). Exhausting those and daily quests, your best bet as a tank or healer is queueing up for the lowest level dungeon you have access to, and as a DPS your queues are too long for that so you normally jump into one of the game's 'deep dungeons' which is basically procedurally generated minidungeons with different rules. I'm not a huge fan of the 'deep dungeon' approach - to my mind, and in order to make the open world feel more populated, I would much prefer that FATEs (the game's version of public events/quests) gave out much bigger XP rewards. It's what I would prefer for future MMOs too - it should feel good to just start being in a group with other people without the hassle of actually having to be invited to a party. In fact something cool I'd like to see is 'natural partying' where if you have a setting toggled on or something, you just automatically get put in parties with people doing the same content as you.
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Sep 13, 2020 13:16
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I too miss the fate trains of the early days of ffxiv where you'd just clump together in a massive heap of people and hit things I wish fates did automatically soft-group you so things like group heals and scholar pet heals landed on strangers for the duration of the event
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Sep 13, 2020 13:51
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Amante posted:I've been playing MMOs since UO and personally, I don't want the same things out of them now that I did as a 15 year old (other than a vague sense of being in a virtual world that feels fun to explore). Not sure why tab-targeting remains such a sore spot for people; it's a perfectly fine system to build a game around--why reinvent the wheel if you don't need to? Because combat has almost always been the weakest point of even the good MMOs? jokes posted:MMORPGs are just chat rooms with extra rules and restrictions. Sometimes, rarely, the side game is engaging fun and cool. But at their core the MMORPG is an interactive chat room.
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Sep 13, 2020 14:48
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jokes posted:MMORPGs are just chat rooms with extra rules and restrictions. Sometimes, rarely, the side game is engaging fun and cool. But at their core the MMORPG is an interactive chat room. Yeah, but we don't really need that anymore when everyone is in Discord. I use to log into WoW every day after school so I could talk to all my friends. Now I can play a singleplayer game with whatever engaging mechanic I want and still chat with a crew of people.
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Sep 13, 2020 16:15
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Cardboard Fox posted:Yeah, but we don't really need that anymore when everyone is in Discord. i'm struggling to understand when it became so common to talk about discord as though it's something revolutionary. i see this kind of sentiment increasingly often we, uh, had popular chat clients that "everyone" was on back in the day, too.
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Sep 13, 2020 16:57
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Cardboard Fox posted:Yeah, but we don't really need that anymore when everyone is in Discord. Right so why play MMOs that aren’t fun? This is the problem that WoW has and why they’re relying, increasingly, on piece of poo poo psychological tactics to keep you playing instead of just making the game fun in the first place. FFXIV relies on spectacle and story to pull you back in, and the raids and dungeons and leveling experience is very fun— but that content runs out even though it takes thousands of hours to complete everything. Most KMMOs are fun for a bit but they don’t stay fun and then rely on the same tactics that WoW does to grab and keep subs, or just going full on Pay To Win. MMOs are bleak because nobody seems to make them fun. They are, at their core, an excuse to chat with strangers over the internet. That isn’t a hook in itself anymore. It started largely as a persistent role playing experience but that fell out of favor quick. MMO devs seem more attached to the idea of keeping players playing, hopefully obsessively, forever instead of being cool like SE and saying “play until you run out of poo poo to do and stop having fun. We’ll make more poo poo later on you can check out” while WoW and everyone else is like “you need to play now and forever”. jokes fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 17:22
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Honestly I wish we could make a legitimate MUD style MMO. UO was close, EQ was just another style. Asheron's Call was a wierd balance between the two but not quite there. I guess to do something like that it would have to be closer in build to Second Life mixed with UO? Or Everquest Landmark but with actual content?
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Sep 13, 2020 17:27
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Jazerus posted:i'm struggling to understand when it became so common to talk about discord as though it's something revolutionary. i see this kind of sentiment increasingly often If we're comparing it to something like mIRC back in the day then sure, it was used, but not at the level of Discord. You've got game studios linking their official discords in their trailers these days. Of all the guilds I was in, maybe 10% of people used a chat program. Most communicated either on the forums or in-game. Maybe my experience is just an outlier though. jokes posted:Right so why play MMOs that aren’t fun? The unique aspect of MMOs was the whole "living in a persistent world with your friends" bullet point on the back of the box. At least, it was for me. MMOs these days are about how to extract the most amount of MAUs out of the game by incorporating a slot mahine of mobile game mechanics because we can't let the MAUs fall off, oh my god we need need to push the carrot farther out so everyone doesn't quit! When I was a kid and played SWG I always thought that in 20 years we would have games where we could literally live in Coruscant in our own apartment with a launch pad on the roof that we could use to fly around a giant universe with an unimaginable scale. Guilds would be able to buy whole planets and construct entire cities while going to war with rivals on the other side of the galaxy. Instead, we got Star Citizen. Cardboard Fox fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 17:30
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Kortel posted:Honestly I wish we could make a legitimate MUD style MMO. UO was close, EQ was just another style. Asheron's Call was a wierd balance between the two but not quite there. EQ was based off DikuMUD so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:12
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I don’t like the mass migration out of games to Discord. I don’t like having to take my attention off the game I’m playing to chat. What’s more, I play games on a tv with a controller (and a wireless mini keyboard for FFXIV), not up close with dual monitors like most people seem to these days. So I run Discord on my phone if I have to, but having to look at an entire separate device is even more jarring and forgettable. I only think to use Discord if I want to voice chat or share screenshots.
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Sep 14, 2020 05:24
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Dross posted:I don’t like the mass migration out of games to Discord. I don’t like having to take my attention off the game I’m playing to chat. What’s more, I play games on a tv with a controller (and a wireless mini keyboard for FFXIV), not up close with dual monitors like most people seem to these days. So I run Discord on my phone if I have to, but having to look at an entire separate device is even more jarring and forgettable. I only think to use Discord if I want to voice chat or share screenshots. Agreed. As several other posters have pointed out, what’s even the point of having a multiplayer game if you’re going to use another interface to talk? FFXIV RP seems to use a lot of in game emotes which means everything happens “in person.” Since so much of the interaction is visual and in game, Discord is mostly used to let people know when and where RP events are taking place. It’s an interesting way to keep people invested in the game, but between that and most RP taking place in private instances, the community is super fragmented. LLSix fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 05:28
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Freakazoid_ posted:EQ was based off DikuMUD so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Based, but I'd like something as in depth as Muds can get. They can get very involved and many can be completely combat less if you choose to go that route. VR might help get to that point with hand manipulation becoming a thing. Basically evolve SWG to a modern setting with even more freedom?
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Sep 14, 2020 05:49
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Honestly I'm surprised I haven't seen any games that use the Discord game bridge API thingy to let Discord do the voice and text chat in various games. On one hand I'm happy about it because I strongly dislike discord and all proprietary chat protocols (that some people even pay for  ) but on the other hand I get that it's absurdly popular.So I dunno, I kind of see that as where things will ultimately go. I assume Amazon will eventually buy Discord and give it a shotgun wedding with Twitch and convince all online game developers that they need deep integration with both if they want to make the next "Live Service" game or eSport or god forbid MMO.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:44
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