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IIRC the Empire's full plate is meant to be something of a pseudo state secret - the only empire units that use it are the hyper elites, i.e. Greatswords and the Knightly Orders. The former are basically household guards to the most important nobles, and the latter are cloistered military orders funded directly by personal ties to important noble houses and/or temples depending on the particular order. There's not that many smiths who know how to make it and the ones that do tend to be sponsored directly by temples/electors and spend all of their time making and maintaining the supplies used by those groups. It's sort of like how Nuln is a giant artillery and engineering manufacturing center but nobody else is really buying great cannons and hellblasters; it's not that nobody can afford them, it's that the Nuln College of Engineering is a state organ and the state gets priority to buy up all the stuff it produces.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:56
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Dramicus posted:Brettonia runs on a lovely pseudo-slave economy that basically forces people into two classes, the oppressed and the oppressors. They don't have room for innovators and it makes total sense that the Empire is more technologically advanced, especially since they are far more willing to interact and trade with Dwarves and Elves because foreign ideas don't represent an existential threat that could topple their society. Just let me buy it like the orcs buy stuff with scrap.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:57
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SHISHKABOB posted:Just let me buy it like the orcs buy stuff with scrap. That would work if you just want the stat, but I'm more interested in the model change. I like looking at dudes in heavy plate armor, don't judge me. Kanos posted:IIRC the Empire's full plate is meant to be something of a pseudo state secret - the only empire units that use it are the hyper elites, i.e. Greatswords and the Knightly Orders. The former are basically household guards to the most important nobles, and the latter are cloistered military orders funded directly by personal ties to important noble houses and/or temples depending on the particular order. There's not that many smiths who know how to make it and the ones that do tend to be sponsored directly by temples/electors and spend all of their time making and maintaining the supplies used by those groups. You could be completely correct, but I never got the impression that full plate was a secret or anything, it's just the regular breastplate that state troops get + some extra bits. So, more expensive sure, but it's not like it's power armor or anything. I think the Empire mostly functions on a "good enough" economy of scale. They equip the majority of their troops with the basic necessities (helmet, breastplate, shield) and save the more elaborate stuff for the elite forces. Also, in my head cannon, that's why you see so many one-armed guys in Mordheim, because breastplates are common due to mass production in state arsenals, but arm armor isn't. Dramicus fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Sep 17, 2020 |
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Sep 17, 2020 17:04
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Dramicus posted:That would work if you just want the stat, but I'm more interested in the model change. I like looking at dudes in heavy plate armor, don't judge me. There's a mod that makes all the Empire state troops have plate armor. Lore be damned: it's cool, and some of the dudes still have floppy hats so nobody got hurt.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:12
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Dramicus posted:Brettonia runs on a lovely pseudo-slave economy that basically forces people into two classes, the oppressed and the oppressors. They don't have room for innovators and it makes total sense that the Empire is more technologically advanced, especially since they are far more willing to interact and trade with Dwarves and Elves because foreign ideas don't represent an existential threat that could topple their society. 5th Ed Warhammer Fantasy was decidingly less-grimdark for most factions; for Brettonia, the Knighthood concept was actually elective and anyone could become a Knight. Basically the local village elders and 'fairest maidens' could find a problem that needed to be solved, and then members from the local community could volunteer to solve it (Kill the troll in the cave, rescue our kids from orcs, that sort of thing). If the person survived the challenge, they became a knight by local acclimation, and then got to rule the local village, but only so long as they continued to defend it. That way, the sons of knights had to also serve the community or they weren't knights. The villages could also sabotage people they hated with impossible quests. 6th and 7th edition made Brettonia the incredibly lovely super-grimdark take on feudalism (Peasants handing over 9/10th of all produce, being little better than chattel, knights being strictly hereditary) which was bleedover from GW going up into their own asses with W40K. I think 8th Edition was trying to make it a little less worse but then *END TIMES* That's the thing I really like about Total War Warhams, you can ignore half the grimdark poo poo of the setting and have the Order factions annihilate Chaos and its associated dumb factions.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:28
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:5th Ed Warhammer Fantasy was decidingly less-grimdark for most factions; for Brettonia, the Knighthood concept was actually elective and anyone could become a Knight. Basically the local village elders and 'fairest maidens' could find a problem that needed to be solved, and then members from the local community could volunteer to solve it (Kill the troll in the cave, rescue our kids from orcs, that sort of thing). If the person survived the challenge, they became a knight by local acclimation, and then got to rule the local village, but only so long as they continued to defend it. That way, the sons of knights had to also serve the community or they weren't knights. The villages could also sabotage people they hated with impossible quests. While the 5th Ed lore is interesting, it makes it hard to explain why there's a 400-year technological disparity between Bretonnia and the Empire. The grimdark hyper-oppressive feudalism at least makes sense. I know the real reason for the difference is because they want the factions to look different, but that's part of the fun of Warhammer is there's usually some crazy lore that backs up whatever stupid poo poo they come up with. jokes posted:There's a mod that makes all the Empire state troops have plate armor. Lore be damned: it's cool, and some of the dudes still have floppy hats so nobody got hurt. I know, but I can't bring myself to use it because I want the stats to match the appearance. It's just not right when you have guys in full plate, but only 30 armor.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:41
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Brettonian is actually written with the extremely french accent and nobody in brettonia can read anything the empire writes and vice versa.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTCDdmq6DlA Tis a thing of beauty.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:44
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Not sure that unit should be able to gain veterancy. Also reminds me of a thing I saw last game which I don't know if it's vanilla but there was a rogue army mostly comprised of orcs but for some reason they had a loving cygor. Who the hell gave orcs a cygor? I loving hate cygors.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:48
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OwlFancier posted:Brettonian is actually written with the extremely french accent and nobody in brettonia can read anything the empire writes and vice versa. I just figure most interactions between the Empire and Brettonia play out like the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The Empire shows up to a Brettonian castle with some tradegoods and they're all: "Hey, we've got some guns and cannons, would you like to buy some?" And the Brettonians shout at them from the top of their walls "No, we've already got one. Go away!" "What? Are you sure, it sure doesn't look like you've got any..." "I said go away!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSo0duY7-9s Dramicus fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 17, 2020 |
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Sep 17, 2020 17:50
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OwlFancier posted:Not sure that unit should be able to gain veterancy. It's vanilla, some of the rogue armies have a mix of factions. I saw one that had dwarves and empire before.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:02
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I mean even in 5th Ed knights are obsessed with doing things honorably. Using a gun, dishonorable. Using anything other than hand crafted Bretonnia armor blessed by a damsel, dishonorable. Clever tactics, dishonorable. And the Bretonnian navy, which has always been run by non-knights since they haven't figured out how to make horses run on water yet, is just as good and well equipped as the Empire's. So you don't need full on grimdark feudalism, every knight is just a lawful stupid paladin.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:13
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Eimi posted:I mean even in 5th Ed knights are obsessed with doing things honorably. Using a gun, dishonorable. Using anything other than hand crafted Bretonnia armor blessed by a damsel, dishonorable. Clever tactics, dishonorable. And the Bretonnian navy, which has always been run by non-knights since they haven't figured out how to make horses run on water yet, is just as good and well equipped as the Empire's. So you don't need full on grimdark feudalism, every knight is just a lawful stupid paladin. Eh, even so, the elective quest system would filter those types out pretty quickly. The guy who finds a clever way to take out the troll will probably see a higher success rate than the guy who tries to arm-wrestle it. You could say they suddenly become stupid upon being knighted, but it's a bit of a stretch. It's far easier to see an oppressive regime forsaking progress in favor of tried and tested methods of maintaining control. Knights can easily put down peasant rebellions, not so much if they have access to firearms.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:22
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Steam review consensus on Malus Darkblade seems to be that he sucks, but it wasn't clear to me if he's underpowered, boring, or just not as cool as Snikch. Is he fun to play? Has he gotten any better since release? This is for a Coop Vortex campaign.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:25
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Dramicus posted:Eh, even so, the elective quest system would filter those types out pretty quickly. The guy who finds a clever way to take out the troll will probably see a higher success rate than the guy who tries to arm-wrestle it. You could say they suddenly become stupid upon being knighted, but it's a bit of a stretch. It's far easier to see an oppressive regime forsaking progress in favor of tried and tested methods of maintaining control. Knights can easily put down peasant rebellions, not so much if they have access to firearms. Bretonnian knights aren't just like really good cavalry men, but by being virtuous they are literal superhumans. Like Louen is supposed to be in his hundreds, or how the knights get the Blessing of the Lady buff for 20% physical resistance. While an Empire knight would need a lot of luck and surprise to take on a chaos warrior they are an even fight for a Bretonnian. Avasculous posted:Steam review consensus on Malus Darkblade seems to be that he sucks, but it wasn't clear to me if he's underpowered, boring, or just not as cool as Snikch. Like every dark elf lord that isn't Malekith/Lokir, his gimmick is just actively detrimental and really annoying to deal with. You either spend your entire income buying anti-demon methadone from Malekith or just deal with no public order and everyone hating you forever.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:26
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Eimi posted:Bretonnian knights aren't just like really good cavalry men, but by being virtuous they are literal superhumans. Like Louen is supposed to be in his hundreds, or how the knights get the Blessing of the Lady buff for 20% physical resistance. While an Empire knight would need a lot of luck and surprise to take on a chaos warrior they are an even fight for a Bretonnian. There's also the cynical view that the blessings are real and are granted, but not for being virtuous, but for falling in line. There's a lot to suggest that the Lady is just an old Elven god that has shaped Bretonnian society in a way that protects athel loren, and stops them from being too curious about things. Also "virtue" is real subjective in Bretonnia. There's a lot of rules-lawyering about what's technically being virtuous without actually having to be virtuous.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:30
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Bretonnia is a goddamn mess of people lying to each other and themselves while also sincerely believing in what they're doing and that's why it's great.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:32
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Eimi posted:Like every dark elf lord that isn't Malekith/Lokir, his gimmick is just actively detrimental and really annoying to deal with. You either spend your entire income buying anti-demon methadone from Malekith or just deal with no public order and everyone hating you forever. Ah fair enough, that doesn't sound like an escape from real life at all. Thanks.
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Sep 17, 2020 18:38
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Does anyone want to post their mod lists so people can get some good suggestions for new mods they might want to try? I'd like to try that Kislev Reborn, Unnatural Selection, and Skaven! once I get internet again at home. Currently using Chaos Invasion X3, which has taken Chaos from just annoying to actually entire-world threatening (I think the mod not only triples the number of Chaos armies, but also adds 4 new Chaos factions, one for each God, that spawn around the map and attack different factions all at once, when the invasion begins).
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Sep 17, 2020 19:21
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Does anyone want to post their mod lists so people can get some good suggestions for new mods they might want to try? I’d appreciate this, I’m late to the mod game and not sure what to go with
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Sep 17, 2020 20:53
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Yeah, the last time I played tabletop Brettonia was not mega grimdark. I don't really care though its pretty hilarious to see their aristocracy taken to its logical conclusion
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Sep 17, 2020 20:56
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Dramicus posted:There's also the cynical view that the blessings are real and are granted, but not for being virtuous, but for falling in line. There's a lot to suggest that the Lady is just an old Elven god that has shaped Bretonnian society in a way that protects athel loren, and stops them from being too curious about things. Also "virtue" is real subjective in Bretonnia. There's a lot of rules-lawyering about what's technically being virtuous without actually having to be virtuous. It's not even a suggestion, it's text. The big reveal in the End Times was that the Lady is Lileath, one of the major elven goddesses. Her guise as the Lady was her running a long con to pick up human worshipers and mold them into a shield to protect the elves and fight against Chaos. When this is revealed, the Bretonnians are less than pleased - not that it really matters, because Bretonnia gets annihilated basically offscreen in the End Times.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:00
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Every time I hear the End Times I'm reminded of when I tried to read the wiki entry on it and god its just so loving dumb
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Sep 17, 2020 21:05
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I would always recommend SFO grimhammer and GCCM, SFO significantly overhauls the battles and economic side of the game which I really like though some people seem not to like the strategic/economic side? Generally it puts a lot more emphasis on unit quality, with high quality units being subject to factionwide and army wide restrictions (if you so choose) but also being able to kill basically infinite crappy units. Quality units are usually quite interesting to use. GCCM just adds a bunch of new maps to settlements, which adds some desperately needed variety though the AI can struggle with some of them. I would still rather use it though because the AI can't do normal settlement maps either, and the new ones are at least different.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:07
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terrorist ambulance posted:May want to try replying that one. I honestly think it's probably winnable if you corner camp and run gelt out in front to harass them as they come, and micro the grenade outsiders on clumped up orcs Probably. I just wanted to see if it was winnable at all - a full army plus a full WAAAGH plus the settlement garrison is a tall order regardless. I was happy with the result I got and then just reloaded and carried on haha.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:09
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Kanos posted:It's not even a suggestion, it's text. The big reveal in the End Times was that the Lady is Lileath, one of the major elven goddesses. Her guise as the Lady was her running a long con to pick up human worshipers and mold them into a shield to protect the elves and fight against Chaos. When this is revealed, the Bretonnians are less than pleased - not that it really matters, because Bretonnia gets annihilated basically offscreen in the End Times. Counterpoint gently caress the end times and refuse to accept it as canon. 
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Sep 17, 2020 21:11
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Eimi posted:Counterpoint gently caress the end times and refuse to accept it as canon. I mean, even without that the text so strongly implied it from day 1 that its hard to call it non-canon. Like how all Brettonians who are magically inclined are kidnapped as children with the women coming back years later with strongly elf flavored magic. And the Wood Elves have a ton of human men mages they use as servants with French accents.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:13
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Yeah even before the End Times spelled it out it was hinted extremely heavily that the Lady had something to do with the elves.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:14
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I kinda wanna see if I can get Imrik to collect the dragonhorn, the horn of vaul, the horn of the ancestors, the horn of the first beast, and the gilded horn of galon konook and just ride into battle playing megalovania.
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Sep 17, 2020 22:14
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Does anyone want to post their mod lists so people can get some good suggestions for new mods they might want to try? Victory Conditions Overhaul is also pretty good: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2165815189. It replaces the long and short victory conditions for each faction with a new set that are both less tedious and which make more sense from a lore POV. I'm thinking of doing a Dwarf play through next, maybe as Karak Kadrin. Are there any good mods that change up the Dwarf roster or add units that aren't hilariously janky or broken?
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Sep 17, 2020 22:58
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OwlFancier posted:I would always recommend SFO grimhammer and GCCM, SFO significantly overhauls the battles and economic side of the game which I really like though some people seem not to like the strategic/economic side? Generally it puts a lot more emphasis on unit quality, with high quality units being subject to factionwide and army wide restrictions (if you so choose) but also being able to kill basically infinite crappy units. Quality units are usually quite interesting to use. You seem to be the most vocal about SFO around here, so I hope you don't mind me asking: would you recommend the faction-wide or army-wide unit restrictions? Or both, or neither?
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Sep 18, 2020 12:35
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Zephro posted:It's something like units over a certain (not especially large) size have a chance to do Orky things each turn rather than following your orders, like beating up the nearest other unit of greenskins, charging the nearest enemy, etc. Very Orky but probably not very fun if you put it into Total Warhammer. I'd like the "charges the nearest enemy" if the unit they were fighting started routing and they just selected the nearest non routing unit that might give em a good fight. Feel's orky and means i have to micro less.
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Sep 18, 2020 13:17
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dogstile posted:I'd like the "charges the nearest enemy" if the unit they were fighting started routing and they just selected the nearest non routing unit that might give em a good fight.
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Sep 18, 2020 13:45
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Bretonnia actually does have cannons. They use them in the navy, which presumably uses peasants as crews and is basically run by the bourgeois merchants. It’s supposed to be the strongest fleet in the world excepting the elves.
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Sep 18, 2020 13:48
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didnt they used to have a similar thing fir some cavalry units where they would be "impetuous"?
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Sep 18, 2020 13:48
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OwlFancier posted:I would always recommend SFO grimhammer and GCCM, SFO significantly overhauls the battles and economic side of the game which I really like though some people seem not to like the strategic/economic side? Generally it puts a lot more emphasis on unit quality, with high quality units being subject to factionwide and army wide restrictions (if you so choose) but also being able to kill basically infinite crappy units. Quality units are usually quite interesting to use. I tried SFO out for a few turns, I didn't really like their decision to make flanking not affect leadership as much and make leadership losses be tied into health loss, which is kinda historically... not true. Also, I tried to build a second army and ran out of money super quick. I dunno, I have it downloaded, maybe I'll try it again, I really like their promies to make all the factions different. I hear GCCM is super buggy at the moment, depending on which map gets loaded. Is that still true? I decided to get Unnatural Selection, boosted a couple factions (Skaven, Vampire Counts, Greenskins) by +1 each. Von Carstein then immediately got destroyed by Averland. Gonna keep trying it out to see the changes. I did have CTD when I went to click "done" on the mod that lets you set all the parameters for Unnatural Selection, but it seems to have saved when I loaded the game again. Edgar Allan Ho posted:Bretonnia actually does have cannons. They use them in the navy, which presumably uses peasants as crews and is basically run by the bourgeois merchants. It’s supposed to be the strongest fleet in the world excepting the elves. I thought Dwarfs had a strong navy. Man, introducing navies into Warhams TW would be crazy. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Sep 18, 2020 |
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Sep 18, 2020 13:56
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punishedkissinger posted:didnt they used to have a similar thing fir some cavalry units where they would be "impetuous"? Knights Errant had it, as did everyone with frenzy
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Sep 18, 2020 13:58
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I did get a few CTDs running GCCM the past few months. Basically it’s still usable you’ll just want to quick save often and auto resolve if it crashes. I yanked it though since that’s annoying.
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Sep 18, 2020 14:06
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Rhjamiz posted:I did get a few CTDs running GCCM the past few months. Basically it’s still usable you’ll just want to quick save often and auto resolve if it crashes. I yanked it though since that’s annoying. has the overall quality of the maps improved much?
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Sep 18, 2020 14:08
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punishedkissinger posted:has the overall quality of the maps improved much? Being no map expert, they were definitely different and interesting. I dunno about improved. The crashes were very rare.
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Sep 18, 2020 14:13
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