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Alhazred posted:Isn't this like saying that Blade should be in at least three movies before any vampires appear? I'm honestly kinda tired off everything needing a long build up. Blade was fighting vampires from issue one. The Dark Phoenix Saga happened long after Jean had been an X-Men. You need to establish her as her own character before that point.
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Sep 27, 2020 10:08
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I'm not exactly sure a long build-up is necessary, but yeah, you have to care about Jean and her relationship to Scott for the story to work at all. It probably helps to spend some time with her as the "good" Phoenix before she goes "dark".
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Sep 27, 2020 14:26
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Yeah, you don't need a build up, you could do Dark Phoenix as your first X-Men movie, but you have to commit to Scott and Jean and the other X-Men as characters, whereas the movies we got were mostly about Magneto, Xavier, Wolverine, Mystique and Rogue.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:05
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The original X Men movies felt like they went from having an ensemble cast in the first one followed by “holy poo poo, Halle Berry and Hugh Jackman are blowing up right now, let’s really emphasize Storm and Wolverine”, and it really jacked up any setup for Pheonix in the third one. Which was a turd for other reasons, too, mind you. The new movies were mostly incoherent and couldn’t decide what to do with the characters or what ones to focus on (outside of “Jennifer Lawrence is huge now, really focus on Mystique I guess”) but they at least lucked into knocking DOFP out of the park.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:11
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Alhazred posted:Isn't this like saying that Blade should be in at least three movies before any vampires appear? I'm honestly kinda tired off everything needing a long build up. Not really. If we were saying they have to build up to Magneto or the Sentinels and shouldn't have them in the first movie, instead having them fight, like, the Blob or something...That would be comparable to your analogy.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:24
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Lager posted:Not really. If we were saying they have to build up to Magneto or the Sentinels and shouldn't have them in the first movie, instead having them fight, like, the Blob or something...That would be comparable to your analogy. It's more like that you have to have Magneto be the villain in X-men 1 in order for it to mean anything when the X-men team up with him in order to stop a different threat in X-men 2.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:35
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The new movies were mostly incoherent and couldn’t decide what to do with the characters or what ones to focus on (outside of “Jennifer Lawrence is huge now, really focus on Mystique I guess”) but they at least lucked into knocking DOFP out of the park. It was kind of funny they continued to focus on a character whose actress seemed like she wanted to be there less with each movie.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:38
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Dawgstar posted:It was kind of funny they continued to focus on a character whose actress seemed like she wanted to be there less with each movie. I don’t think she emoted once in Apocalypse. It was almost impressive how little effort she put in.
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Sep 27, 2020 15:39
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Wasn't one of her requirements for showing up in Dark Phoenix was to get the guy who did The Last Stand back as writer/director? Maybe that was meant to be a demand that the studio would refuse and let her out.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:11
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One thing Marvel would do is not pussy foot around the Phoenix being a giant space firebird, that's what has really lacked so far
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Sep 27, 2020 16:47
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Yeah I haven't seen Dark Phoenix, but as I recall the ending shot of the phoenix shadow on the water in X2 was miles better than any of the phoenix imagery in X3.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:04
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If they want to be comic accurate it can only be a space bird like 5 movies after she dies.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:11
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If they do Phoenix in the MCU you do at least one X-Men movie before it actually shows up, but you build the force itself with post credit stuff in other movies. Then you need to have Jean as the regular rear end Phoenix for at least one movie. I would say two core X-Men movies then have her show up in at least one or two other crossover things too. Then you can turn her dark and have her be the main villain of the first big X-Men/Avengers crossover.
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Sep 27, 2020 17:49
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they should do it like batman and have every movie do a dark phoenix recap to remind us of the thing we saw in 5 other movies
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Sep 27, 2020 18:11
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Ror posted:Yeah I haven't seen Dark Phoenix, but as I recall the ending shot of the phoenix shadow on the water in X2 was miles better than any of the phoenix imagery in X3. X2 is what I was thinking in terms of buildup. X2 has all these scenes about using your power responsibly, Pyro turns, Xavier gets mind-controlled, and you have Jean at the end Going Through poo poo but using that power in service of saving her friends. So an outsider could be like "whoa she burned herself out with that last push" and the Phoenix water hints at something else maybe or just a nice poetic ending. It's just a shame that X3 turned out like that because it was a seriously cool cliffhanger they squandered.
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Sep 27, 2020 18:17
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Retro Futurist posted:One thing Marvel would do is not pussy foot around the Phoenix being a giant space firebird, that's what has really lacked so far Marvel definitely understands that insane comic book poo poo can absolutely work in movies, but you have to entirely commit to it. That’s where the non-DOFP new X Men movies failed to varying degrees. Dark Phoenix was like “alright, there’s aliens. But they’re just going to be basically normal people, and they’ll be led by Jessica Chastain playing Jessica Chastain. And there’s the Phoenix Force, but, like, it just melts some people. And basically none of the characters with weird appearances will be that way for most of the movie because the actors are sick of this franchise and don’t want to wear prosthetics anymore.”
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Sep 27, 2020 23:06
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If how Marvel Studios has handled Spider-Man so far is any indication (and why wouldn't it be?) I wouldn't expect the word "phoenix" to ever appear in an MCU X-Men movie, and thank god
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Sep 28, 2020 00:05
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I agree that X2 did a pretty good job of setting up the Phoenix stuff. It was a part of Jean's own arc that tied a liiittle bit to the overall stuff, but didn't particularly intrude on anything else, and sets up something interesting to be paid off. I would argue that even X-Men Apocalypse did the right amount of setup as far as Phoenix goes, but that movie has so many drawbacks that unfortunately the stuff it gets right gets forcibly drowned out. The problem in both cases lie with the payoff, and the creative choices involved.
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Sep 28, 2020 02:20
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Yvonmukluk posted:You need to establish her as her own character before that point. A lot of people manages to do that with one movie. It just feels like every major movie now exists primarily to set up the next one. Even the John Wick franchise feels like a really expensive mini series insteat of stand alone movies.
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Sep 28, 2020 10:23
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Vince MechMahon posted:I'd prefer to never see Hawkman in anything ever again. Yea, not a fan of that rapey jerk. Hopefully they'll remove the whole thing where he forces Hawkgirl into a relationship because "they're meant to be together". Lol what am I saying? This is DC, they think that is still romantic. Doing Pheonix is like how Batman keeps doing Dark Knight Returns. It's the best story ever made so we must always do it! Though Marvel would at least be not afraid to have the Shiiar appear in it. But even then, why not Brood? Why not a later story arc? I'd watch a movie of Cable and Hope running through time. It's like how I keep seeing people going "oh they're gonna do X-men Vs Avengers!" yea, no. That is a story that had decades of build up, it didn't just happen.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:13
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Yeeeea no, I don't know what you've been reading my guy, Hawkman and Hawkgirl are many things but they are not "rapey." Let's not call things that when they're...not that.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:24
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The "meant to be together forever" is a James Robinson/Geoff Johns addition to the mythos from like, 2004 or so? Whenever the JSA brought Hawkman back.
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Sep 28, 2020 13:30
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BrianWilly posted:Yeeeea no, I don't know what you've been reading my guy, Hawkman and Hawkgirl are many things but they are not "rapey." Let's not call things that when they're...not that. "Rapey" is probably the wrong word, but the most recent CW version of the character, who kept insisting that a woman who didn't know him and wasn't that into him was his one true love, definitely gave off some real Bad Boyfriend vibes. EDIT: apparently I got better later? I don't know, I stopped watching CW shows after a while. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 13:42
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twistedmentat posted:Doing Pheonix is like how Batman keeps doing Dark Knight Returns. It's the best story ever made so we must always do it! Though Marvel would at least be not afraid to have the Shiiar appear in it. But even then, why not Brood? Why not a later story arc? I'd watch a movie of Cable and Hope running through time. It's like how I keep seeing people going "oh they're gonna do X-men Vs Avengers!" yea, no. That is a story that had decades of build up, it didn't just happen. They've only done DKR once though? And they waited 9 movies, 4 different series, and 6 different Batmen. Also AvX literally just happened. That's why nobody likes it. Nobody's decades of characterization mattered there. The only positive of AvX is the costumes for the Phoenix 5, and Cyclops was Right. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 13:59
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Aphrodite posted:They've only done DKR once though? There have been two animated DKR movies and both Burton and Snyder have said it was the biggest influence on 89 and BvS. Tonally for 89, except the mention of the Corto Maltese, and more in your face in BvS.
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Sep 28, 2020 14:56
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Oh right, I forgot DC still does animation. That's a 2 part DKR rather than doing it twice though isn't it?
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Sep 28, 2020 15:08
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DKR borrows a few things from DKR.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:12
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Aphrodite posted:Oh right, I forgot DC still does animation. They did the two separate things then they did a second super cut release. So I'm counting it as two things cause gently caress those greedy bastards lol Doctor Spaceman posted:DKR borrows a few things from DKR. Also this, I try not to think about that movie though.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:14
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Aphrodite posted:They've only done DKR once though? Yeah, they had to bring in an entirely new status quo to rehab Emma. Rhyno posted:The "meant to be together forever" is a James Robinson/Geoff Johns addition to the mythos from like, 2004 or so? Whenever the JSA brought Hawkman back. It really hamstrung Kendra, too. Character development? Nah. It's all going to circle around back to Carter. Although to be fair when she can do whatever you get things like her 'romance' with Martian Manhunter.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:21
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There was that stupid thing with Arsenal in JLA.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:22
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Also there were elements in The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:31
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Batman is an older douche is just Batman. If he's not trying to kill Superman, it ain't DKR.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:32
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So Lex Luther is Batman?
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Sep 28, 2020 15:41
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Rhyno posted:So Lex Luther is Batman? He has literally all of the same qualifications.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:43
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Aphrodite posted:He has literally all of the same qualifications. His parents are dead, but the context is different and I think that counts. Lex would disagree I'm sure.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:46
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Lex killed his dad. LoL he's Bald-Man
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Sep 28, 2020 15:47
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The Dark Knight Rises took the idea of Batman being less physically capable than he was and coming out of retirement etc, BvS took some of the surface aesthetics of it (the bulk, suit, fighting Superman) but jettisoned the whole physically broken down aspects. But that's still two in a row that took inspiration from the book.
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Sep 28, 2020 15:50
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Karloff posted:The Dark Knight Rises took the idea of Batman being less physically capable than he was and coming out of retirement etc, BvS took some of the surface aesthetics of it (the bulk, suit, fighting Superman) but jettisoned the whole physically broken down aspects. Really, the main problem is that people keep taking elements from DKR but for obvious reasons as part of a franchise they can never use the thing that makes DKR work: that it's The Last Batman Story*. I'm not as big a fan of Logan as most people, but the commitment to it being the final Wolverine story made it what it was. *yes, I know there's sequels, but... gently caress 'em.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:08
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Even in the original he's preparing to Batman again at the end.
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Sep 28, 2020 16:12
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Rhyno posted:Lex killed his dad. A bald man crashed through a window in Luthor's study?
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Sep 28, 2020 16:17
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