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Zedhe Khoja posted:
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Oct 12, 2020 17:07
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Zedhe Khoja posted:No one denies atrocities against Armenians and no one cheers for the Azeri government. No one posts "Azeri Strong" or "Go Azerbaijan!" Honestly its hard for most of the thread to hide their boners when Azeri soldiers get mulched. Eh, it comes up a lot, too much in fact, and does seem to be building toward a narrative of forgiving Azerbaijan for future ethnic cleansing because “the Armenians did it first”. (Azerbaijan is a Western proxy and Armenia is a Russian ally do it isn’t hard to see.)
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Oct 12, 2020 17:13
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This thread is pretty pro-Armenia, but c-spam rally isn't reflective of what most people are hearing and reading. the wider Western media is building to support Azerbaijan no matter what, and there's money pouring in to reinforce that stance. quote:Meanwhile, Azerbaijan has ramped up its public relations campaign, employing not one but six of K Street’s heavy-hitting firms, including the Livingston Group, Stellar Jay Communications, BGR, the Podesta Group, and DLA Piper. Last year the country spent $1.3 million on lobbying. https://www.theamericanconservative...PcTjZ5dTuSzWNPE yeah the american conservative is bonkers with it's domestic coverage, but it's decent when covering stuff connected to US foreign policy
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Oct 12, 2020 17:26
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Let's expand it to 30 years. What's this... Azeris? Ethnically cleansed... hang on, looking into it a little bit more... Nagorno-Karabakh? Wait a sec! Username post combo
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Oct 12, 2020 18:05
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my genious nuanced take is that this is dumb nationalism on both sides being exploited by regional powers to play out their various proxy conflicts, and the only genuine bad guy here is Mikhail Gorbachev for not killing all the nationalists in 1987 and saving the USSR. if the armenians and azeris were smart they would hold hands and together drop a scud on his dacha.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:17
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my genious nuanced take is that this is dumb nationalism on both sides being exploited by regional powers to play out their various proxy conflicts, and the only genuine bad guy here is Mikhail Gorbachev for not killing all the nationalists in 1987 and saving the USSR. if the armenians and azeris were smart they would hold hands and together drop a scud on his dacha. the guy from the pizza hut commercial?
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Oct 12, 2020 18:30
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my genious nuanced take is that this is dumb nationalism on both sides being exploited by regional powers to play out their various proxy conflicts, and the only genuine bad guy here is Mikhail Gorbachev for not killing all the nationalists in 1987 and saving the USSR. if the armenians and azeris were smart they would hold hands and together drop a scud on his dacha. given what we’ve learned about scud accuracy they better drop at least a dozen
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Oct 12, 2020 18:31
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my genious nuanced take is that this is dumb nationalism on both sides being exploited by regional powers to play out their various proxy conflicts, and the only genuine bad guy here is Mikhail Gorbachev for not killing all the nationalists in 1987 and saving the USSR. if the armenians and azeris were smart they would hold hands and together drop a scud on his dacha. Gorby's solution was to remove the Armenians from NK
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Oct 12, 2020 18:41
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Spergin Morlock posted:the guy from the pizza hut commercial?
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Oct 12, 2020 18:41
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 I don't think this guy wanted to save the USSR
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Oct 12, 2020 18:47
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Azerbaijan makes its case to pro-Israel Americans https://asiatimes.com/2020/10/azerbaijan-makes-its-case-to-pro-israel-americans/ quote:Azerbaijani Ambassador to the US Elin Suleymanov alluded to 9/11 conspiracy theories and warned that Internet trolls may be trying to “push Armenian propaganda under Jewish names” in an appeal to a pro-Israel group on Thursday.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:49
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Atrocious Joe posted:This thread is pretty pro-Armenia, but c-spam rally isn't reflective of what most people are hearing and reading. I don't think most people pay much attention to the Nat Sec ghouls outside of DC, and Armenians have a massive media presence in the states, so on the culture front I expect Armenia to win out. A shame thats entirely meaningless as every blood-dripping vampire at the FDD lusts for Baku oil and they're the ones who actually influence policy. Boredumb posted:Azerbaijan makes its case to pro-Israel Americans Not a bad pitch tactic given that Zionists have generally been extraordinarily lovely towards the subject of the Armenian genocide going all the way back to Herzl.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:53
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I don't think there's that much international goodwill you can buy with a piddly $1.3m, or even 13m
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Oct 12, 2020 19:23
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They could increase their PR budget 8-fold for the price of a single Israeli suicide drone that they'd otherwise drop on a 50 year old artillery piece.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:42
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Zedhe Khoja posted:Not a bad pitch tactic given that Zionists have generally been extraordinarily lovely towards the subject of the Armenian genocide going all the way back to Herzl. Why were they lovely on that subject? Seems odd
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Oct 12, 2020 19:53
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Why were they lovely on that subject? Seems odd I can see why after the holocaust, but I'd like to read about why they were dismissive before 1945. Is it because the armenian church was big in Jerusalem?
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Oct 12, 2020 19:57
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Why were they lovely on that subject? Seems odd Depending on the source, Herzl was either fully or not-fully aware of what the Ottomans were doing to the Armenians and he sold them out in exchange for Palestinian land https://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Opinionated/Herzl-The-interesting-character-that-inspired-a-nation-401006 quote:He lost some respect among other Jewish journalists when he supported the Ottoman cause of destroying Armenian Christians, although it was not clear that he actually knew what was happening to the Armenians at the time, in order to try and gain favor and support from the Sultan to allow Jews to immigrate to Palestine freely. More precisely in 1896, when he visited Sultan Abdul Hamid to try and persuade him to open up Palestine, he did not gain any ground, yet due to his fame as a journalist agreed to provide support for the Sultan in the papers, as he was ravaged by Europe’s press for his deplorable and unspeakable actions in Armenia. Also, https://www.jstor.org/stable/2536529?seq=1 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/herzls-sell-out-of-armenians-1.5357026 Israel purchases oil from Azerbaijan, and Israel has never recognized the Armenian genocide. Boredumb has issued a correction as of 20:07 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 20:01
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After 1948 I can understand. When I was in Israel, nobody will tell you that Roma, gays and communists died in the holocaust. It's real weird
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Oct 12, 2020 20:12
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You could take it back even further if you wanted to, cuz the Armenians and Jews often filled the same societal niches in the region, with all the competing interests that implies. Trying to rile up their muslim neighbors to take out the heathen competition was pretty common. Solidarity is hard folks.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:42
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i say swears online posted:I can see why after the holocaust, but I'd like to read about why they were dismissive before 1945. Is it because the armenian church was big in Jerusalem? i say swears online posted:After 1948 I can understand. When I was in Israel, nobody will tell you that Roma, gays and communists died in the holocaust. It's real weird Which still seems super strange, to be honest, it wasn't even the same occasion of genocide where talking too much about other minorities could supposedly "steal your thunder", how would talking about the Armenian genocide diminish the holocaust? And after the foundation of Israel you could spin it as a cautionary tale of what the evil muslim countries wanted to do to any non-muslim populations, need for an armed nation state, etc. Was it about Israeli-Turkish foreign relations? On that unhappy topic I wonder how many anti-Semitic conspiracy theories will be repurposed against Armenians; "oh, you wouldn't hear about that in your country, they control the media there" PoontifexMacksimus has issued a correction as of 20:52 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 20:50
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:On that unhappy topic I wonder how many anti-Semitic conspiracy theories will be repurposed against Armenians; "oh, you wouldn't hear about that in your country, they control the media there" Turkish society is way ahead of you: the Kardashians have been portrayed as brainwashing puppeteers ever since Kim called lahmacun "Armenian pizza".
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Oct 12, 2020 21:00
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Which still seems super strange, to be honest, it wasn't even the same occasion of genocide where talking too much about other minorities could supposedly "steal your thunder", how would talking about the Armenian genocide diminish the holocaust? This is definitly the case in the US. The ADL actively denied the Armenian genocide until like, 2017. Meanwhile, I remember Armenian groups here saying that focus on the Holocaust "distracted from other genocides" or made "genocide a Jewish problem" which is true to some extent, but I think Holocaust education is a little bit more important in the west considering how anti-semitism is still a thing. The same would be true if Turkey ever reformed, Armenian genocide education would be more important than Holocaust education. I find it pretty unlikely that Europeans or Americans will ever try to massacre Christians again. Some Armenian-Americans are very conservative, and for them, it might be more of a "globalist" issue too, but I think its not that simple.
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Oct 12, 2020 21:24
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Oh, Israel also supports Azeribaijan.
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Oct 12, 2020 21:26
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Syncopated posted:How many ethnic cleansings have there been in the last 20 years actually? Myanmar, what Sri Lanka did to the tamils might count I’m not 100% sure. China, Syria? the sri lankan civil war is obviously Complicated but there were two parts I'd describe as pretty ethnic-cleansey the big one was directed specifically at Indian Tamils (aka more recent immigrants as compared to the Tamils who'd been in the country for a buncha generations) and hundreds of thousands of them were deported entirely the slightly less big one was when the then-president's brother as defense minister (who is now the current president  ) oversaw the end of the civil war by way of obliteration, killing an awful lot of people in the final LTTE holdout areas and, uh, putting a couple hundred thousand in also some stuff at various points with encouraging Sinhalese people to move into traditional Tamil areas, and a really messy fight in Jaffna (more or less the northern Tamil capital) there was never really a concerted effort to wipe out or expel non-Indian Tamils entirely, but you definitely didn't want to be anywhere near the LTTE holdings at any point and were going to be discriminated against in various ways, plus the intermittent spontaneous pogroms Goatse James Bond has issued a correction as of 21:59 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 21:55
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Did anyone save this image BTW?
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Oct 12, 2020 22:32
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Atrocious Joe posted:This thread is pretty pro-Armenia, but c-spam rally isn't reflective of what most people are hearing and reading. Some of the partners at DLA Piper, mentioned in the story above lol: https://www.dlapiper.com/en/us/people/e/emhoff-douglas-c/ Douglas C. Emhoff - partner, spouse of Kamala Harris https://www.dlapiper.com/en/us/people/s/setrakian-berge/ Berge Setrakian - partner, also the current president of the AGBU, probably the largest Armenian diasporic organization
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Oct 13, 2020 01:08
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Boredumb posted:https://www.dlapiper.com/en/us/people/s/setrakian-berge/ An Armenian working to push Azerbaijan's talking points shows that a negotiated peace is possible
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Oct 13, 2020 02:40
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Did anyone save this image BTW? this but red & chp was stabbing turkey in the back
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Oct 13, 2020 08:54
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https://twitter.com/auroraintel/status/1315919838909550592?s=21 there’s not much incentive to mark UAVs very clearly, is there? what happens when 2 countries fight and have the same inventory of drones?
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Oct 13, 2020 12:46
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New Nagorno-Karabakh episode of War Nerd with a native reporter from Artsakh. Its...ok. Interviewee does the usual Artsakh poo poo("we liberated Shushi""its a shame that Nakhchivan is lost to us, but what could have been!") But it contains some good commentary on the international political situation and on the ground experience of someone dealing with Azeri warcrimes.
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Oct 13, 2020 13:44
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Zedhe Khoja posted:New Nagorno-Karabakh episode of War Nerd with a native reporter from Artsakh. Its...ok. Interviewee does the usual Artsakh poo poo("we liberated Shushi""its a shame that Nakhchivan is lost to us, but what could have been!") But it contains some good commentary on the international political situation and on the ground experience of someone dealing with Azeri warcrimes. I loving hate the inability to understand nuance. You can say Armenia should win this without also saying ethnic cleansing is good
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Oct 13, 2020 14:48
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Zedhe Khoja posted:New Nagorno-Karabakh episode of War Nerd with a native reporter from Artsakh. Its...ok. Interviewee does the usual Artsakh poo poo("we liberated Shushi""its a shame that Nakhchivan is lost to us, but what could have been!") But it contains some good commentary on the international political situation and on the ground experience of someone dealing with Azeri warcrimes. https://twitter.com/TheWarNerd/status/1315998250952990722
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Oct 13, 2020 17:55
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absolutely bracing myself for a terrible interview
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Oct 13, 2020 19:37
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I mean a young person growing up in the sort of cultish environment of a militarized and heavily propagandized siege society is going to come out of that with a certain worldview and strange beliefs. Like she seemed to honestly believe that Nakhichevan had been an Armenian majority territory in the very recent past*, and I don't really blame her for being like that. But Ames and Dolan do seem to take it all at face value even beyond not wanting to be confrontational with a guest whos being currently shelled with artillery. That being said most of the interview is good, but contains little new information for anyone here. *Although there was quite a bit of genocide going on there this past century Zedhe Khoja has issued a correction as of 20:06 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 19:58
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I mean a young person growing up in the sort of cultish environment of a militarized and heavily propagandized siege society is going to come out of that with a certain worldview and strange beliefs. Like she seemed to honestly believe that Nakhichevan had been an Armenian majority territory in the very recent past*, I think its a specifically a thing among diaspora to try to achieve "wilsonian" armenia, since their imagined homeland is now in turkey/west armenia. I've even heard Armenian Americans suggest that the current armenian state is basically not really armenia and wont be until they reclaim the western part.
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Oct 13, 2020 21:19
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Nakhchivan was nearly half Armenian until the genocide. I mean it's still irredentism but it's not like the RoC claiming Mongolia or whatever
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Oct 13, 2020 21:39
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sum posted:Nakhchivan was nearly half Armenian until the genocide. I mean it's still irredentism but it's not like the RoC claiming Mongolia or whatever Yeah, but the flip side of that is it was always majority Azerbaijani in the first place, so it is unclear why Armenia would have a claim beyond the usual in the Caucasus. Also, at this point most of Artsakh is vacant, it isn't that Armenians (in general) lack land but people willing to live in it. I doubt you are going to get thousands of Armenians in the LA area to move to Caucasus en masse to hold down the fort. Honestly, the best-case scenario is the Azerbaijani offensives run out of steam and the frontline stabilizes until an actual cease-fire takes place. There really isn't a "good" scenario otherwise. (That said, the actual long-term future of both Armenia and Azerbaijan are pretty hazy. Armenia doesn't really have the export base to really be competitive and they really can't detach themselves from Russia. Azerbaijan itself is going to eventually run its wells dry as they push deeper into the Caspian and doesn't really have a back up plan besides some NG exports.)
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Oct 13, 2020 22:06
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doing x place was y% z ethnicity so therefore it belongs to q state is stupid. No place was ever homogenous
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Oct 13, 2020 22:19
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, but the flip side of that is it was always majority Azerbaijani in the first place, so it is unclear why Armenia would have a claim beyond the usual in the Caucasus. Also, at this point most of Artsakh is vacant, it isn't that Armenians (in general) lack land but people willing to live in it. I doubt you are going to get thousands of Armenians in the LA area to move to Caucasus en masse to hold down the fort. drat its a shame there can't be one big state that helps maintain these tiny ethnicities while supporting them and providing security.
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Oct 13, 2020 22:20
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Vasukhani posted:drat its a shame there can't be one big state that helps maintain these tiny ethnicities while supporting them and providing security. who needs that when you get pizza hut
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Oct 13, 2020 22:23
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