|
How about a light hearted question as a palate cleanser? Do you regard the war on Christmas as having been started by Christians?
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 01:46 |
|
|
Weka posted:How about a light hearted question as a palate cleanser? Definitely! To my knowledge, the Puritan colonists thought Christmas was poo poo and it was a big point of contention between them and, say, catholics who celebrated it. Like, christians arguing over whether Christmas is good is almost tradition, and we heathens didn't get in on that until late in the 20th century 
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2020 11:10
|
|
|
The Bible passages make it clear the birth happened in the spring, so observing it in winter is just Christians trying to hang out with the fun holidays. Pretty sure the war on Christmas is entirely self inflicted at this point, and the frontline warriors are people making YouTube rants in their cars about plain red Starbucks cups.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2020 14:20
|
|
|
Yeah I meant in that it seems to be mostly yule with the serial numbers filed of.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2020 00:26
|
|
|
With Jul (as it's called in Danish) coming up, let's talk about Yuletide!:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/antique-santa-181900085-5bc26bb646e0fb0051bd9c75.jpg) From wiktionary: quote:Yule is the modern version of the Old English words ġēol or ġēohol, that are thought to be derived from Common Germanic *jeχʷla-, and are cognate with Gothic 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 (jiuleis); Old Norse, Icelandic, Faroese and Norwegian Nynorsk jól, jol, ýlir; Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian Bokmål jul. The etymological pedigree of the word, however, remains uncertain, though numerous speculative attempts have been made to find Indo-European cognates outside the Germanic group, too. The word is conjectured in an explicitly pre-Christian context primarily in Old Norse. Thus, two kenning names for Odin himself are jólfaðr (Yule Father) and jólnar (The Yule One). The word jól means something like feast or toast - in kenning, a dead body is (among many other things) known as hugins jól or 'Huginn's Feast' (That is: A Raven's Dinner). These connotations of partying and dining are interesting enough on their own, but we have plenty of sources talking about 'drinking jól', a large feast held every winter at which there was also sacrifice to the gods. This had a practical aim: In Scandinavia our weather is generally lovely and the winter is long and dark, and a feast of what pork, beer/mead and preserved larders could be found, in the midst of it, does wonders for morale. However, it was also a cultic event, and it's practice remained a hotbed of resistance to the christianization of the north. For instance, there's a story of Harald Bluetooth (IIRC, the guy who led Denmarks conversion to christianity), was cornered by his hirdmen at Roskilde and asked if he would not raise his glass to the old gods. Realizing that he was in trouble, he did so and prompty got out of of the city under armed escort. Back then, Jul was a longer celebration, lasting as much as three weeks into the winter solstice and a week after. Cultic practices probably varied according to where you lived, but laying your hand on the yule pig, an animal very sacred to the vanir (Frej and Freja in particular) and swearing an oath to be true to the gods may have been common. There's a lot of conjecture here, and much we don't know. Interpretations include connecting the month event and Yule period to the Wild Hunt (a ghostly procession in the winter sky), the god Odin (who is attested in Germanic areas as leading the Wild Hunt under the moniker Jólnir), and increased supernatural activity, such as the Wild Hunt and the increased activities of draugar — undead beings who walk the earth. Mōdraniht, an event focused on collective female beings attested by Bede as having occurred among the pagan Anglo-Saxons on what is now Christmas Eve, has been seen as further evidence of a fertility event during the Yule period*. The events of Yule are generally held to have centered on Midwinter (although specific dating is a matter of debate), with feasting, drinking, and sacrifice (blót). Scholar Rudolf Simek says the pagan Yule feast "had a pronounced religious character" and that "it is uncertain whether the Germanic Yule feast still had a function in the cult of the dead and in the veneration of the ancestors, a function which the mid-winter sacrifice certainly held for the West European Stone and Bronze Ages." A decription of Yule practices have been given by Hollander, but are mostly though to be made up or corrupted by a christian lens these days, I'll include it for the sake of completion: quote:It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. Also all kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [sacrificial blood], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [aspergills]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over the fires. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat. Even today, a lot of stuff celebrated at christmas has a heathen past. Carrying a tree inside and decorating it is common in Europe and America, and seems to have been invented by heathen guildsmen in early Germany. Binding masks and goats out of hay is definitely not christian kosher, and leaving out milk and oatmeal for the pixies or elves is a direct link to the universal practice of sacrificing to your land spirits in heathen Scandinavia. Santa leaving gifts is also claimed to be linked, in that children would place their boots near the chimney for Odin to place gifts in - in fact, the reindeer themselves may be modeled on Sleipner, who is said to cover vast distances in a single jump! * For a more in-depth view of the sacrifice to and worship of female spirits on mainland Scandinavia, look up dísir and díseblóts. Tias fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2020 08:30
|
|
|
Tias posted:and leaving out milk and oatmeal for the pixies or elves is a direct link to the universal practice of sacrificing to your land spirits in heathen Scandinavia. Kids in the US at least still leave out milk and cookies for Santa on Christmas Eve. Neat to see how that probably worked it’s way in.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2020 13:38
|
|
|
How common is it in your experience for people to believe they have had a personal encounter/meeting with the norse gods and/or other supernatural beings (while not in trance or similar altered states of mind)?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Okua posted:How common is it in your experience for people to believe they have had a personal encounter/meeting with the norse gods and/or other supernatural beings (while not in trance or similar altered states of mind)? That's a very wide category. I think most people who participate in the blót and sumbel do, for a given definition of "meeting", have a meeting with the gods. Most of us who practice norse heathenry also do various shamanist and animist practices, where we meet various gods, spirits and other creatures while in an altered state of consciousness (usually through drumming or fasting outside, but some also practice lucid dreaming or take psychoactive drugs), but I see that's not what you're getting at. I can't really say if we're in an non-altered state when we blót, as most religious work is inherently transcendental. If you can be more specific I'll be happy to elaborate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2020 11:43
|
|
|
Thank you for answering. I was just asking randomly after reading Norse myths that include Odin and Tor traveling among humans in Midgård in disguise as people you might meet and not just abstract forces, plus Hugin and Mugin being potentially everywhere there are ravens. And the spirits living in this world, too, make for more possible supernatural encounters, so I wondered if those kinds of experiences happen or if maybe you'd be looked down on for thinking you'd met something supernatural. Also: As the years go by I come to appreciate the pagan roots of the "ritual" when, even as adults, my sister or I give a portion of the winter's first rice-porridge/risengrød to the nisse living under the shed near the family house 
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2020 22:38
|
|
|
I err on the side of norse animism contra religious asatru, and so I consider all members of all animal species I encounter to be representatives of the spirit world, at least when sitting out in the altered consciousness. When I've met gods, it has been in the non-ordinary state of consciousness. I don't meet a person in real life and later assume them to have been a god. I appreciate you leaving out porridge for the house spirits. Literally nothing except extra luck will come to you and the kids!
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2020 13:41
|
|
|
My Granny told me to "Always leave one apple on each tree, one berry on each bush, and always cook a small extra helping. Just in case God wants to send a visitor in need your way." Animals count as visitors, right? Because it is a lot of fun throwing scraps at squirrels playing outside.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2020 13:59
|
|
|
Tias posted:For instance, there's a story of Harald Bluetooth (IIRC, the guy who led Denmarks conversion to christianity), was cornered by his hirdmen at Roskilde and asked if he would not raise his glass to the old gods. Realizing that he was in trouble, he did so and prompty got out of of the city under armed escort.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2020 17:27
|
|
|
In general, forcing jarls to toast and eat stuff seems to have been a way to ensure compliance with heathen mores. It's really interesting, especially since horses pop up in a lot of heathen lore. For example, before the worship of the aesir, folks worshipped a preserved horse penis - and a lot of carvings and bracteates we've found show deities interacting with horses. For example, the Valknut is often said to be connected to Odin as war god, represent the place you'll suffer your death blow, and all sorts of other made up poo poo - but extant evidence show it only appearing together with horses.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 10:09
|
|
|
Tias posted:In general, forcing jarls to toast and eat stuff seems to have been a way to ensure compliance with heathen mores. In the case of Håkon the Good it almost caused a civil war. He did indeed gather an army and planned to match them against those who had forced him to eat the horseliver. But again Sigurd Jarl proved to be the most sensible one. He asked the king if it really was worth to fight about when they could join forces to kill some other guys instead.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 12:28
|
|
|
So what was so special about the soup that eating it or not eating it was a big deal?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 15:37
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:So what was so special about the soup that eating it or not eating it was a big deal? It was eaten to honor the gods, plus Håkon the Good insisted on blessing everything he ate or drank with the sign of the cross. Things were also tense because right before Håkon had made a speech about how everybody should convert to christianity. So basically you had a room where people where looking for an excuse to start trouble, they were at least a little bit drunk and had easy access to weapons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 16:48
|
|
|
I personally haven't found any good sources on the sacred aspects of shared food, but we know jól to be an event that contained a great blót sacrifice, and it only makes sense from an animist and pre-christian standpoint (hell, from a post-christian standpoint as well!) to ingest the hallowed food afterwards. See 'spirit food' traditions from all over the world, where indigenous tribes give spirits and gods food to eat, and then eat it for/with them afterwards. I do this with my lakota teachers in the spring! As I mention in the yule post, Hollander gives a rendition of the tribal chief who blesses and then eats the sacrificial food, but it's largely thought to be partly fabricated.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2020 10:02
|
|
|
I'm not sure, but if the horse had been sacrificed to Odin, Christians aren't allowed to eat meat from animals sacrificed to other gods,
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2020 16:01
|
|
|
Also, a blanket ban on eating horse meat was in effect in the christian world at the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
Tias posted:Also, a blanket ban on eating horse meat was in effect in the christian world at the time. Wasn't that because the Pope considered eating horse meat to be pagan?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2020 19:07
|
|
|
Yeah, Gregory (IIRC) recognized it as a pagan practice and banned it in the early middle ages.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 10:42
|
|
|
Tias posted:Yeah, Gregory (IIRC) recognized it as a pagan practice and banned it in the early middle ages. Basically if it was fun or tasted good it was a pagan practice and banned. Good christians should live bland lives while eating bland food.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 11:40
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Basically if it was fun or tasted good it was a pagan practice and banned. Good christians should live bland lives while eating bland food. And work hard all day every day for the church/king, to receive their rewards in the afterlife. The oldest scam in the book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 12:00
|
|
|
Not every day, medieval Catholics celebrated so many saints days and holidays that they worked fewer days of the year than many modern Americans.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 15:56
|
|
|
Internet Wizard posted:Not every day, medieval Catholics celebrated so many saints days and holidays that they worked fewer days of the year than many modern Americans. To be fair, one of the main arguments the norse had against christianity was that there was just too many holidays.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:To be fair, one of the main arguments the norse had against christianity was that there was just too many holidays. As someone interested in the Heathen path and an Australian I find this disconcerting... Our public holidays are what we live for.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2020 00:52
|
|
|
Yeah, but you have what, ~13 per year? For medieval Christians it was 50+.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 12:15
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:To be fair, one of the main arguments the norse had against christianity was that there was just too many holidays. Are you taking the piss? If not, I'd love to hear more about this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2020 12:30
|
|
|
Tias posted:Are you taking the piss? If not, I'd love to hear more about this. From the saga of Håkon the Good: King Håkon came to the Frostating, where a large number of peasants were gathered. When the thing was settled, King Håkon spoke. He first said that it was his command and prayer to peasants and settlers [farmers], great people and small people, and thus to all the people - young and old, rich and poor, women and men - that all should become Christians and believe in one God, Christ, the Son of Mary, give up all mere and pagan gods, do not work every seventh day and fast one day a week. But as soon as the king had said this, there was great unrest: the peasants grumbled that the king wanted to take the work from them, and said that in that way they could not build the land. Workers and slaves shouted that they could not work when they did not get food, and they also said that it was a hereditary trait in King Håkon, who came from his father [Harald Hårfagre] and his family, that they were stingy on the food, though they were generous on gold.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 17:31
|
|
|
Important yuletide information: https://twitter.com/benito_cereno/status/1331727233329885184 For the record, I will die before I call the jolly rednosed man Santa Claus. He is Father Christmas, the personification of secular Yuletide cheer. The centre of the Christian year falls between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday. Christmas is for eating and drinking, and I will drop by Church if I have the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 01:25
|
|
|
So, the Danish and British "Krampus Runs" have been cancelled on account of COVID-19, and I figure that's a good as time as any to talk about the heathen roots of the Krampus run and Saint Lucia's day! "SERVUS!" From wiki: quote:In Central European folklore, Krampus is a horned, anthropomorphic figure described as "half-goat, half-demon",[1] who, during the Christmas season, punishes children who have misbehaved. This contrasts with Saint Nicholas, who rewards the well-behaved with gifts. Krampus is one of the companions of Saint Nicholas in several regions including Austria, Bavaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Northern Italy including South Tyrol and the Trentino, and Slovenia.[2] The origin of the figure is unclear; some folklorists and anthropologists have postulated it as having pre-Christian origins. Whereas he is connected with St. Nick, several anthropologists have argued that he has pre-christian origins. Like other Austrian and central German catholic phenomenons, he could well have been a pre-christian manifestation of the 'Horned God' archetype, sneaking into the mainstream. Today, the celebration of Krampus runs pretty amok in Austria and nearby areas, last year ending with the police having to clear out drunken demons from the town square. In Denmark, Whitby, Baltimore and other places history buffs, heathens and other tricksters have revived the tradition of a 'krampus run' or a 'christmas goat run', as to us Scandinavians the straw goat figure is a classic chrismas figure and also related to the horned gods of yore. Google 'Whitby Krampus Run' for a particularly impressive procession. The same with the christian feast of St. Lucy, or St. Lucia as she's known on the mainland. Here in Denmark it's a largely christian affair, but with children walking in a procession carrying candles, and here we see the connection to the older celebration of "Lusse", a pre-christian goddess or entity who is responsible for bringing back the sunlight, and may have been a personification of either Freja, Idun or Sun herself.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
And then you have to explain to small kids that the buns we eat are cats and pretend that it makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
Since we are talking about Krampus... https://mainer74.wordpress.com/
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2020 23:39
|
|
|
To answer their conundrum: Being an old German word, the correct plural is KrampuSSE, though in the more global use it follows rules in place in English and becomes KrampusES.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2020 14:27
|
|
|
Tias posted:(save for the indiginous Americans I've trained with) So this raises a question I have coming from this comment and an earlier post ITT (I am still reading, its quite interesting). Also from some thing I read during my deeper dives into colonial history and racism in North America: some indigenous people hold that their traditional knowledge is for them, and we settlers should find our spiritual needs fulfilled within our own traditional knowledge, which made me realize that other than rare practices that distantly echo the larger knowledge system we mostly lack our traditional knowledge, so finding this thread is well timed for me. As quick background, I'm Scandi-American, and on my way out of Protestantism I spent some time studying in a hermetic school, so I have no great problem with the idea of recreating internal landscapes from the sagas and finding personal meaning from that. But how do you separate the external landscape--the surroundings that gave rise to a tradition, from the traditional thought? What I mean is, as someone pointed out earlier, the US and Canada is stolen land that already has a living traditional knowledge system. I work in an area that is also used for vision questing by a local tribe and have had some experiences out there that the elders easily can discuss and name, because its part of the landscape they have known for a very long time. Interpreting those experiences through a Norse lens would be difficult, it seems to me. Additionally, this indigenous belief system is intimately tied with the language as well as the landscape. I guess the tl;dr is how well does the Norse (or other Germanic) heathen system translate to new places? (Sorry if this isn't completely clear, but I've been struggling with a migraine all day) e. quote:Gimle 
Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Dec 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
On the one hand, at the peak of historic Heathen practice, the Norse culture was extremely diverse and famed for traveling across the known and unknown world, from Canada to Africa and the Middle East. Odinn is especially notorious for being a wanderer as well. So in that regard I’d say Heathenism is very well suited for traveling to new lands. On the other hand, there are local traditions that have a better belonging to places than other traditions. If there are local elders willing to educate you and introduce you to the local spirits and forces, that could also be a part of your spiritual life. Everybody’s experience is their own individual experience.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 00:37
|
|
|
Internet Wizard posted:On the one hand, at the peak of historic Heathen practice, the Norse culture was extremely diverse and famed for traveling across the known and unknown world, from Canada to Africa and the Middle East. Odinn is especially notorious for being a wanderer as well. So in that regard I’d say Heathenism is very well suited for traveling to new lands. Thanks, that helps.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 00:54
|
|
|
Bilirubin posted:So this raises a question I have coming from this comment and an earlier post ITT (I am still reading, its quite interesting). Also from some thing I read during my deeper dives into colonial history and racism in North America: some indigenous people hold that their traditional knowledge is for them, and we settlers should find our spiritual needs fulfilled within our own traditional knowledge, which made me realize that other than rare practices that distantly echo the larger knowledge system we mostly lack our traditional knowledge, so finding this thread is well timed for me. There is definitely a sentiment among many first nations tribes that white people are completely messed up( at least from a spiritual standpoint), and should not be taught the red road and other indigenous belief systems whatsoever. In the lakota tribe white men are called wasicu, which translates to 'those who steal/keep the fat' IIRC. As I think I've said, though, I was taught by a lakota "roadman" and his apprentice( aho, Hector, aho, Hesi) who came to Denmark to teach Danes, so it's not a universal belief, but even those guys had to fight their own elders for a long time before being allowed to come. quote:As quick background, I'm Scandi-American, and on my way out of Protestantism I spent some time studying in a hermetic school, so I have no great problem with the idea of recreating internal landscapes from the sagas and finding personal meaning from that. But how do you separate the external landscape--the surroundings that gave rise to a tradition, from the traditional thought? What I mean is, as someone pointed out earlier, the US and Canada is stolen land that already has a living traditional knowledge system. I work in an area that is also used for vision questing by a local tribe and have had some experiences out there that the elders easily can discuss and name, because its part of the landscape they have known for a very long time. Interpreting those experiences through a Norse lens would be difficult, it seems to me. Additionally, this indigenous belief system is intimately tied with the language as well as the landscape. There's only one real way out there, and that's going out there. You will need to learn your surroundings, be they norse or someplace else. I've been a city dweller in Denmarks largest metropolis (The capital, Copenhagen) for my entire life and still am. I would love to get out to a wild land and make my connection there, but till then I draw in all the wild lands I can reach, learning and deciding on where I'd like to be. It would not be out of the question for me to learn and decide to go to a place that isn't norse, but otoh it doesn't seem that likely as I am also tied by memories, loves, friends and family. That isn't to say it's impossible at all, though. quote:I guess the tl;dr is how well does the Norse (or other Germanic) heathen system translate to new places? The 'system'? Fairly well. The iron age heathens travelled far and wide, without deciding to convert to another system (in most cases anyway). As always, sources are scarce, but it appears they went from Newfoundland to Turkey, Poland to Russia, without giving up their worldview and spiritual alignment. The gods and spirits? Probably not as well. As hard-ish polytheists, many original heathens (and many, many more modern one) have no problem believing in and even propitiating foreign gods and spirits. If you're in a new land, clearly you have to build a relationship with the spirits in THIS lake and THIS mountain, not the ones at home, because they're over there. If the people here are really strong, prosperous and ferocious in battle, their god must also be strong. Why not get in on it? I think you're making fine sense, and I hope my answers did as well. If something is unclear, just get back at me and I'll try again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 11:16
|
|
|
Tias posted:
Also, a cinema in Norway.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 12:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 01:46 |
|
|
And a decent venue for metal in Roskilde!
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2020 13:01
|
|