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I just want to say I’m very thankful for the mods and iks in this thread and very exhausted by everyone who keeps going off about simple requests regarding language. If a lot of people in a community are bothered by some very specific words, maybe just adjust your language and drop it instead of trying to convince everyone that you need to be allowed to use those words. Language is powerful and there are, in fact, many different ways to get the same message across, just use one that doesn’t trigger a bunch of people. Frankly it doesn’t matter why people are bothered or upset by those words when several people in that community have spoken up to express that they are bothered or upset by them. Edit: I see the mod note, but this is not a comment just about the Democrat/Democratic thing, and I would like to let this comment stand even if I am probated for it. The Super-Id fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 19:40
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Velocity Raptor posted:I would argue the opposite. Biden being a sore winner would give Trump and his cronies exactly what they're grasping for -- the ability to demonize Biden and the democratic party.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:45
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Neurolimal posted:Not sure how many of the folk salivating for Trump imprisonment understand just how heavily that would galvanize republicans, who would see him as a martyr of The Deepest State. And plus, on a practical level, you just have to let it play out on the financial side of things. He's doomed either way and he's going to lose the one thing that makes up a big part of his identity if he cannot come up with a couple billion dollars fast: Trump Tower. The man is done and the banking industry is the one that's going to drive the shiv. He's done. He knows it, too. Edit: Also, Neurolimal: You are trash. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2020 19:48
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Nonsense posted:I think it is a mistake for Joe Biden not to be a sore winner. He really needs to rub it in, but he will not, thus a mistake. I can't tell what you're advocating for specifically, but he needs to rub it in by doing good things for voters, not by posting sick twitter burns.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:48
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I speak only for myself, but I want Biden to be a sore winner so it feels like he's going to stand up to douchebags. I don't give a gently caress if Trump supporters get more angry about it. gently caress them. Biden hasn't gone as far as I would have, but if he continues/expands on the "You're embarassing yourself" thing, I can live with it.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:49
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Sure Donny, go to a Covid Super-Spreader event. This has to be one of the most pathetic attempts to stay in power ever - just a fat Orange turd hoping other fat turds in camo and red hats will somehow by sheer presence cause all the votes to suddenly and magically change.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:51
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Doctor Butts posted:I speak only for myself, but I want Biden to be a sore winner so it feels like he's going to stand up to douchebags. I don't give a gently caress if Trump supporters get more angry about it. gently caress them. I don't really think being a sore winner is so much standing up to douchebags as being a douchebag yourself. Joe Biden both doesn't need to and has no right to brag. That doesn't mean he has to treat Trump with respect but the idea of Biden bragging makes my stomach twist. I'd rather see him focus on doing things instead of propping himself up more.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:51
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I just can't over that Trump has forced Georgia to recount their votes in the dumbest possible way.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:51
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Murgos posted:This is a poor argument as Trump and his supporters are going to demonize Biden and the Democratic Party regardless. Might as well get some real benefit out of it. Theres a lot less motivation if Trump is just walking around in broad daylight yelling RIGGED compared to seeing him go off in handcuffs to a prison. One has a huge stink of Loser, the other feeds beliefs that he is being persecuted by COINTELPROTOOLS2.0 and that the democrats must be stopped. I know centrism has sold the belief that turning out the base doesnt matter (only capitulating to quote:Edit: Also, Neurolimal: You are trash.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:52
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Murgos posted:This is a poor argument as Trump and his supporters are going to demonize Biden and the Democratic Party regardless. Might as well get some real benefit out of it. They'll demonize regardless, I agree. But he shouldn't give them ammo and make some of their screeching legitimate. The other half of the post you quoted is also part of my argument (not saying you misquoted me. I realize you were refuting that specific point). We've had 4 years of the POTUS acting like a child, and having a president actually acting professionally will show of what America is actually getting, contrasting how Trump and the GOP are crying like the sore losers they are, and the other side acting like the positions in Congress and POTUS are actually important.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:53
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Neurolimal posted:Not sure how many of the folk salivating for Trump imprisonment understand just how heavily that would galvanize republicans, who would see him as a martyr of The Deepest State.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:53
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Wicked Them Beats posted:
It's not just a trans thing. Race, ethnicity, and even more innocuous things like job titles are used by people to belittle or diminish other people or their roles or contributions to whatever. Like, sure maybe insisting on calling someone a secretary after they've corrected you that they prefer administrative assistant or stewardess instead of flight attendant may not be quite as bad as continuing to call someone gypsy or eskimo after they've been told no, it's roma or yupik or insert whatever else here, or misgendering someone after being corrected, but like, it still makes you an rear end in a top hat? The recurring thing here is that the however minor it may be in your eyes, you're attempting to take away someone's autonomy and self-determination and insist they conform to how YOU define them, which is an rear end in a top hat thing to do, no matter how minor you may consider one slight compared to another. It's still a dick move. You don't get to tell people what they're called, and you don't get pick and choose when you have to and when you don't based on how valid you think whatever thing is. Don't be assholes. e: I seem to have missed a modnote post while typing. I will say no more. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2020 19:54
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I don't know. Biden doesn't have the broken personality necessary to be constantly posting Twitter burns, but the subtle laugh and shake of the head when someone mentioned Mike Pompeo the other day was a pretty good Biden-style burn. Mostly, I'd settle for him popping up a few times a week and going "Don't worry, we're still doing what we need to be doing re: the transition".
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Nov 13, 2020 19:54
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There is always - ALWAYS - utility and a reason to go extremely hard on your opponents and be extremely mean. There is no reason ever to not fire up your base and make your opponents look weak while putting them on the defensive. The Dems don't do this but also they're huge losers generally, and when they do go with it like with Markey it tends to work out well. Biden's not doing it not as some kind of grand strategy, but because he really does believe his friends across the aisle are just allies who slightly disagree with him. All extremely negative energies are being focused left, they're there to find right out in the open so if you're wanting to celebrate with a 2 minutes of hate that's where you can find it, and the real base of affluent moderates is extremely fired up over it.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:54
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Faustian Bargain posted:Honestly I'm done caring about what Republicans would think. Who cares? They aren't going to stop supporting him no matter what. They live in an alternate reality and nothing we can do is going to sway the kind of people who believe this nonsense. Yeah why should we care what hard core Republicans feel about a criminal being put in prison? Trump broke dozens of laws and did horrific things that would have US military intervention called for if it didnt happen in the US. Why should the threat of people becoming terrorists dissuade an attempt to dole out punishment for this?
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Nov 13, 2020 19:56
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The totally organic rallies are such a scam, just marked up regular rallies with a lable slapped on em!
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Nov 13, 2020 19:58
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Epic High Five posted:There is always - ALWAYS - utility and a reason to go extremely hard on your opponents and be extremely mean. There is no reason ever to not fire up your base and make your opponents look weak while putting them on the defensive. The Dems don't do this but also they're huge losers generally, and when they do go with it like with Markey it tends to work out well. Would you say... bullying works? I know it is alien to all of us, but yes there are people who - for whatever reason - do like decorum, and unfortunately they seem to fall in the camp of the 500,000 people who decide elections.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:00
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/11/13/joe-biden-trump-election-live-updates/#link-Z3E7ALYCABBZNDFADYCJ5EQHBAquote:The White House announced that Trump will deliver remarks at 4 p.m. regarding development of a coronavirus vaccine, marking only his second time speaking publicly since the Nov. 3 election. Oh, boy. A long-winded rant about how the deep-state drug companies conspired to cost him the election.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:01
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If counter-protestors go, I’m kind of worried about violence plus trump and Barr unleashed the pigs again.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:01
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Neurolimal posted:Not sure how many of the folk salivating for Trump imprisonment understand just how heavily that would galvanize republicans, who would see him as a martyr of The Deepest State. No way. It's time to finally hold these criminals accountable and put them where they belong. It would not galvanize anybody beyond the chuds. It would send a signal to the rest that - hey - time to start being held accountable! The idea that we need to be scared enough of the Republican party to *confirm* to them they will have no legal accountability to their actions is extremely harmful to the democracy. Arrest them and put them in jail.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:01
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Epic High Five posted:
There's an interesting angle to this with what Obama said in his latest memoir about how McConnell basically came right out and told him that he couldn't openly work with anything with him due to him being non-white and how Biden was essentially the go-between for that. I have to wonder if poo poo like that, even with nominally left centrists, still applies. Either way, we're gonna find out. Neurolimal posted:Genuinely dont remember you or anything I might have said that would bother you. My bad, I misaimed that. I chalk this up to the last 50 pages of garbage static in this thread.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:01
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Deteriorata posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/11/13/joe-biden-trump-election-live-updates/#link-Z3E7ALYCABBZNDFADYCJ5EQHBA This is literally a trap for the media to show up and air a grievance session.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:01
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Epic High Five posted:Biden's not doing it not as some kind of grand strategy, but because he really does believe his friends across the aisle are just allies who slightly disagree with him. All extremely negative energies are being focused left, they're there to find right out in the open so if you're wanting to celebrate with a 2 minutes of hate that's where you can find it, and the real base of affluent moderates is extremely fired up over it. Yup. It's supremely telling that the Democratic establishment's first response to doing so poorly downballot in last week's election was to attack AOC in particular, and the left in general. It's the Iron Law of Institutions playing out before our eyes: the top objective isn't to hammer the Republicans who are backing Trump's "I was cheated!" bullshit, but rather, to secure their place of leadership within the party. It's pathetic, and the party leadership really does need to be replaced ASAP. Aruan posted:Would you say... bullying works? The party establishment is showing absolutely no decorum when it attacks progressive Democrats and blames them for its own embarrassing losses. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:03
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Epic High Five posted:There is always - ALWAYS - utility and a reason to go extremely hard on your opponents and be extremely mean. There is no reason ever to not fire up your base and make your opponents look weak while putting them on the defensive. The Dems don't do this but also they're huge losers generally, and when they do go with it like with Markey it tends to work out well. I agree that firing up your base is the most important thing. I disagree that prosecuting Trump would do that for the democrats; most of the brunch caste were sated when the loud conservative rapist was swapped out for the quiet conservative rapist. I doubt you'll get much turnout out of prosecuting Trump over his taxes or whatever tedious poo poo isnt attached to his presidency (and therefore off-limits as far as democrats/republicans are concerned). If it was something serious that would send a message to the left, like his blockades of Iran/Venezuela? His drone strikes? That recent outright theft of Venezuelan resources? Sure, thats dramatic enough that it could grab eager eyes. Whatever NY will go after him for? Nah. Meanwhile, republicans absolutely will latch onto a narrative of persecution by The Deep State, and will carry that indignation into the midterms/GE. I dont see that kind of energy coming from the democrats no matter how hard Trump gets hit on tax evasion. Deteriorata posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/11/13/joe-biden-trump-election-live-updates/#link-Z3E7ALYCABBZNDFADYCJ5EQHBA If he has any sense, he'll use the time to take credit for the vaccine, acknowledge that Biden will see the bump off of it, and frame it as his benevolent gift. Capture the narrative for the republicans before it can be claimed as a democrat party victory. Its equally likely that he rails on how pharma is only now releasing a vaccine now that Sleepy Joe is prez-elect, though. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:04
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Neurolimal posted:Theres a lot less motivation if Trump is just walking around in broad daylight yelling RIGGED compared to seeing him go off in handcuffs to a prison. I disagree. The nature of a criminal trial is that the defendant gets a lot of leeway and every aspect gets aired out to the nth degree. A criminal conviction by a jury of average Americans for a rational person is compelling. Particularly in this case where the defendant will be able to avail themselves of every perk and benefit imaginable. The irrational actors are going to be irrational so don’t cater to them.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:06
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Aruan posted:Would you say... bullying works? I wouldn't call it bullying, but yes it definitely works because if you don't think the other guy is bad why the hell are you running and why should I vote for you? This isn't even getting into the politics of spectacle, which the Dems have rejected explicitly despite running on policy-free team sports messages that require spectacle as a fundamental strategy. It only seems unusual or can be pitched as cruel because half the political spectrum isn't used to it and become reactionaries when faced with even expected levels of conflict. Biden said Trump is an exception and most Republicans are good, so people voted for Biden and then Republicans downballot, and as a result the party got humiliated and any hope of Biden doing anything good has been smothered. This has happened every election since 2008, you'd be crazy to not want something better. And like Majorian said, even if you consider it bullying and bad you don't have a political home because the Dems are extremely quick to do exactly this to their left. edit - there is no base of 500,000 people who decide all elections based on who is acting most like a sexist Sorkin leading man when this country has the disaffected non-participation rates it does Neurolimal posted:I agree that firing up your base is the most important thing. I disagree that prosecuting Trump would do that for the democrats; most of the brunch caste were sated when the loud conservative rapist was swapped out for the quiet conservative rapist. I doubt you'll get much turnout out of prosecuting Trump over his taxes or whatever tedious poo poo isnt attached to his presidency (and therefore off-limits as far as democrats/republicans are concerned). Oh what I'm saying has nothing to do with the prosecution of Trump. That'll never happen because the rich are not beholden to laws and nobody, especially not Cuomo, is gonna suddenly tolerate a rich ex-president being thrown in the slammer or dragged into court. Your point is also immediately relevant to the GA runoffs tho - Biden's promise was that if they just voted for him, they could tune out entirely and millions will be doing just that and already have done. It's going to be a real uphill struggle and Trump being prosecuted happens on a much longer timeline than these anyway. I think the better thing to point to re: Republicans being fired up is the simple fact that he got more votes than 2008 Obama and increased his share of the Republican base despite a well funded org spending months trying to peel them off. v v v I personally would like to normalize Presidents being tossed in prison after their term is over but I recognize I'm probably the minority in this v v v Epic High Five fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:09
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Prosecuting heads of state who're leaving office just feels like a bad idea to me because places that do that a lot are usually authoritarian and have problems with their democracy. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect but I dunno
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Nov 13, 2020 20:11
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Jewel Repetition posted:Prosecuting heads of state who're leaving office just feels like a bad idea to me because places that do that a lot are usually authoritarian and have problems with their democracy. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect but I dunno Does it help to reframe it as "prosecuting a known criminal for his crimes after his immunity is waived"? Because that's what it's doing. Enough hemming and hawing about the decorum of loving prosecuting criminals. This kinda poo poo is precisely why white collar criminals continue to get away with their poo poo and keep committing crimes.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:12
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Jewel Repetition posted:Prosecuting heads of state who're leaving office just feels like a bad idea to me because places that do that a lot are usually authoritarian and have problems with their democracy. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect but I dunno Which is why, if it happens, it should be handled quickly, quietly, and as a somber duty, not a celebration. If we are going to take this action, it needs to be abundantly clear that it's not a partisan effort, it's not a hit at a previous administration, it's the natural legal process to deal with an individual that's broken the law. It will require coordination, trust, and communication between both the Democrats and the Republican party, so it almost certainly won't happen.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:13
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Jewel Repetition posted:Prosecuting heads of state who're leaving office just feels like a bad idea to me because places that do that a lot are usually authoritarian and have problems with their democracy. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect but I dunno Who are we to tell New York State not to prosecute a career criminal for decades of crimes?
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Nov 13, 2020 20:13
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Velocity Raptor posted:would give Trump and his cronies exactly what they're grasping for -- the ability to demonize Biden and the democratic party. They're gonna demonize him (and have) no matter what and do whatever they want no matter what anyways though. There is flat no reason at all to even try to placate them or see things from their side or to "play nice". They're dishonest assholes and they know it. That is why they do what they do. It makes them feel good. Velocity Raptor posted:They'll demonize regardless, I agree. But he shouldn't give them ammo and make some of their screeching legitimate. And they'll just make something up even if he doesn't give them anything to actually gripe about. Look at all the bullshit they said about Obama and all the conspiracy theories they made while he was in office. They demonized him and Clinton based on pretty much nothing at all. They're dishonest assholes who don't give a gently caress. Them griping is mostly performative bullshit and trying to reason with them will get you nowhere even if you actually managed to show them they're wrong to complain to their faces. They don't care about right or wrong. Really they don't. You're just wasting your time and/or kneecapping yourself trying to talk to them or placate them. edit: true the president doesn't have to. He can have the VP or various party members in Congress or the DCCC do it for him\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:15
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i'm ok with the president and people around them not thinking of name-calling and demonizing as valid tactics, but they absolutely should have an arm that DOES.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:20
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CmdrRiker posted:My boyfriend feels the same way about the democratic party and is planning on running for state offices in KS over the next few years. He spent this election volunteering for the democratic party in an effort to learn good outreach practices for people in our state. This is from a few pages back but I figured I'd bring attention to it because I worked on one of the congressional campaigns in Kansas and we just did our debrief last night. I don't want to get into too much detail so as not to dox myself, but there's a lot of frustration going around and I'd be interested to hear your side of it in PMs.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:22
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I need a list of the words we can’t use in these hallowed halls. I motion to Robert’s rules of order a FOIA request for all the bad words. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2020 20:23
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Jewel Repetition posted:Prosecuting heads of state who're leaving office just feels like a bad idea to me because places that do that a lot are usually authoritarian and have problems with their democracy. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect but I dunno The obvious problem is then the head of state is literally above the law and can commit as many crimes as they want in service to themselves or the advancement of their political ideology or party. Because we cannot ever prosecute them. It would be uncouth. What you're referring to are cases where the outbound leader had committed no wrongdoing and the incoming administration uses the levers of government to keep their political party in power by chilling the other party with the threat of legal punishment if they begin to threaten the new ruling party's entrenched position. These two things are not the same, and treating them the same is literally giving the ruling party a hall pass to break every single law in the book and face zero consequences for it. That's a fast track to no effective Rule of Law and whoever wins the tug-of-war will become the ruling party in a one-party state. Jows posted:I think we're on to something here. Lets workshop this a bit. This is absolute garbage argument. It's equating a leader who broke no laws with a leader who did break laws, it assumes that all Presidents will be prosecuted and punished even if they did no wrong, as a matter of retribution for losing the election. That is clearly not what anyone here is arguing for. Asking for a leader who has committed crimes to be held accountable for those crimes is not the same as a witch hunt where we burn someone at the stake for losing. Xaiter fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:24
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On second thought, yeah, if crimes were committed then it might be worse for democracy NOT to prosecute them, as long as the legal process is followed 100%
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Nov 13, 2020 20:24
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Epic High Five posted:There is always - ALWAYS - utility and a reason to go extremely hard on your opponents and be extremely mean. Do you not realize that in many places, this is alienating to a large portion of the electorate? Rhetorical owns and some rough language are pretty accepted, but needlessly 'being mean' for the sake of owning your political opponents isn't going to win a lot of midwestern votes, for example. There's a time and place, and it certainly isn't 'all the time, regardless of cause.'
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Nov 13, 2020 20:26
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Also worth noting that NY is considering prosecuting Trump for crimes that have nothing to do with being president, he committed them years ago and the only connection to being president is that being president led to increased scrutiny of his whole history. Becoming president doesn't come with it an automatic pardon for life As for "going hard" and rubbing Trump's nose in it- no actual insult Biden could say would be as hurtful to Trump as being ignored
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Nov 13, 2020 20:26
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Bolivia is bringing charges against the right-wing coup government now that the left is back in power and it's refreshing to see. I would love if Democrats would back up their "Trump is a FASCIST and he's going to DESTROY DEMOCRACY" language with charges that actually matched the magnitude of what they claimed him to be, but I'm not holding my breath. vvvvvv I don't see why we should give Carter a pass.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:27
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For the record, outside the context of base galvanizing, I am in favor of not only prosecuting presidents for presidential crimes (particularly war crimes), but also applying such retroactively, for the last four presidents.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:27
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