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Barry Foster posted:Yeah, decent counter-arguments re: Paulie. I think some of that's just Tony being more intelligent than Paulie, so he's capable of having more of a theory of mind. Paulie has emotions about people he interacts with on a regular basis, but ultimately he still needs that personal connection to relate it to himself for it to be real to him. Tony's at least capable of extending that to people or things that represent people in his life, so he could be enraged by Ralphie killing Tracee because she reminded him of his own daughter. Both of them are able to turn off those emotions when necessary though, as they both did when it came time to take care of Pussy, and as Tony did when he saw an advantage in getting rid of Christopher. Only tangentially related, but I never really saw killing Christopher as Tony's ultimate evil, because things like finding out Christopher fantasizes about killing him (and already showed up drunk with a gun to try to do it once before) gave him as much reason as a person like him needs to do something like that, and Christopher had once more put Tony's life in peril by driving while high just then. Being loving gleeful about it after the fact, to the point of resenting others who were emotional about it, is what made it uniquely horrible to me. If he, Paulie and Sil had been high fiving each other over killing Pussy, I think all three of their characters would have been viewed pretty differently. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Nov 18, 2020 |
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Nov 18, 2020 22:58
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Sinteres posted:I think some of that's just Tony being more intelligent than Paulie, so he's capable of having more of a theory of mind. Paulie has emotions about people he interacts with on a regular basis, but ultimately he still needs that personal connection to relate it to himself for it to be real to him. Tony's at least capable of extending that to people or things that represent people in his life, so he could be enraged by Ralphie killing Tracee because she reminded him of his own daughter. Both of them are able to turn off those emotions when necessary though, as they both did when it came time to take care of Pussy, and as Tony did when he saw an advantage in getting rid of Christopher. Isn't Tony at least partially responsible for Chris relapsing into drugs though? Instead of being supportive and yelling at any other of the crew who try to get Chris to start drinking again he instead takes every opportunity to mock him for his choice while Chris knows the whole time that if he relapses again it's Tony himself who will order his death. It's little wonder to me that the stress of that (and Adriana's death, another thing ordered directly by Tony) would drive Chris back into drugs. Tony even gets mad that Chris won't go near the bing which is a place filled with drugs and alcohol. That said I do agree with you that worse than the act itself (which Tony could argue was a necessity even if he contributed a lot to Chris' behavior) was that Tony took such pleasure in Chris' absence after the fact and was able to completely turn off his empathy and memories about him. The fact that he feels seemingly no guilt about it is horrific. Even Paulie feels guilty.
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Nov 19, 2020 02:03
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Ginette Reno posted:Isn't Tony at least partially responsible for Chris relapsing into drugs though? Instead of being supportive and yelling at any other of the crew who try to get Chris to start drinking again he instead takes every opportunity to mock him for his choice while Chris knows the whole time that if he relapses again it's Tony himself who will order his death. It's little wonder to me that the stress of that (and Adriana's death, another thing ordered directly by Tony) would drive Chris back into drugs. Tony even gets mad that Chris won't go near the bing which is a place filled with drugs and alcohol. Oh yeah, Tony definitely played a huge part in Chris's degeneration. Even beyond what you said, holding it over Chris's head that he owed Tony for not making him kill Adriana himself instead of honoring him for making an extremely tough choice to give her up is super petty and counterproductive point scoring Tony used as an excuse not to feel indebted to Christopher for betraying his fiancee. Earlier in the series Tony made efforts to buy Christopher's loyalty and earn his love, but by the end it was taken for granted and Chris was basically just judged critically for not being the successor Tony hoped he'd be (and for not living up to the bullshit hero image Tony had of Dickie). I think Tony clearly loved him at one point, and even viewed him as a surrogate son to an extent, but that love was obviously conditional in a way it never could have been for his actual son. One thing that might be a little ironic is that one reason I think Tony was harder on Christopher toward the end is that he (Tony) actually did feel some amount of guilt about Adriana. He clearly had affection for her, and I don't think he was able to make himself hate her like he could with actual mafia guys who flipped, so even if her death was "necessary," I think he still felt pretty lovely about the whole thing and maybe some of that spilled out onto Christopher for bringing him that problem in the first place.
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Nov 19, 2020 03:35
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Honestly even without his addiction issues Christopher was just a major pill most of the time and really liked to pushed his luck. Also any sober person will tell you that plenty of people will pressure you to "just have one and be normal for once", you don't have to be a mob boss for that one.
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Nov 19, 2020 03:52
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Human Tornada posted:Honestly even without his addiction issues Christopher was just a major pill most of the time and really liked to pushed his luck. Also any sober person will tell you that plenty of people will pressure you to "just have one and be normal for once", you don't have to be a mob boss for that one. The problem is Tony is also holding death over Chris' head. He's telling him have a drink, be normal, but also if you have a drink and then can't be normal I'm gonna have you killed.
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Nov 19, 2020 07:38
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The moment Chris became a loving problem to Tony was the scene when Tony was bullying him about it at the bbq and Chris just shot back, "Yeah, like my father. Your hero? The great Dickie Moltisani? Never met a drug he didn't like, you name it he smoked/snort/shot up all the time" Seeing Chris with confidence and a backbone to stand up to him was all he needed to put him high on the list of people to get rid of as soon it was convenient.
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Nov 19, 2020 07:58
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pentyne posted:The moment Chris became a loving problem to Tony was the scene when Tony was bullying him about it at the bbq and Chris just shot back, "Yeah, like my father. Your hero? The great Dickie Moltisani? Never met a drug he didn't like, you name it he smoked/snort/shot up all the time" Seeing Chris with confidence and a backbone to stand up to him was all he needed to put him high on the list of people to get rid of as soon it was convenient. I look at it more as when Chris lost his friends and family exception to being removed if/when he became a problem. It leads to the same place, but from a slightly different angle. Tony even felt bad about having Jackie Jr killed, because of the affection he had for Jackie and the way he could relate it to something happening to one of his kids. Once Dickie was demythologized though, it was easier to view Christopher as just some gently caress up who was constantly causing him problems instead of the living connection Tony had to someone he used to admire. Tony's degeneration over the years also contributed though--whether he tore down Dickie or not, this is still someone who'd spent years in his home as part of his family in his own right, and Tony was able to turn that off because he'd become inured to violence in general, and even against family specifically from having to kill Tony B. Chris may have worried that he didn't have an arc, but he was basically the endpoint of Tony's.
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Nov 19, 2020 15:05
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Also, Christopher coming to terms with what kind of person Dickie really was meant that the whole Barry Haydu thing no longer had any power over him. No more "I will follow that man through the gates of hell for what he did for me," if he regards him as "my father, your hero, wasn't much more than a junkie." Oddly enough, I guess Tony was too young to realize Dickie was a mess because he seems legitimately surprised when Christopher says "whatever he was squirting into his arm."
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Nov 19, 2020 16:37
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Also, Christopher coming to terms with what kind of person Dickie really was meant that the whole Barry Haydu thing no longer had any power over him. No more "I will follow that man through the gates of hell for what he did for me," if he regards him as "my father, your hero, wasn't much more than a junkie." This felt like a big part, Chris abandoning the mythos (and why not? Paulie and Tony were his surrogate fathers and look how they treated him). It was another skewer into Tony, mocking him for believing in the bullshit he helped cultivate. Just as Paulie's image of Tony was destroyed when Tony burned the painting, Chris decided to sink the image he and Tony had both held since they were young and Tony - who cynically used Chris' despair to murder some unknown cipher - was at once flabbergasted and furious to see such "disrespect" for the traditions on display. If Tony hadn't killed Chris, my guess is that Chris would've killed Tony.
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Nov 20, 2020 00:00
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That 3 minute scene is so good, probably the best in the whole show. Tony comparing the fact that he can't eat eggplant with Chris' drug and alcohol rehabilitation 
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Nov 20, 2020 14:16
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Right after that Chris says, "It's not that simple," and Tony replies, "Well make it simple," and then gets all upset when Christopher brings up his depression and going to a psychiatrist. Only Tony is allowed to use that for his own sympathy.
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Nov 20, 2020 16:44
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Tony also encouraged Chris to indulge in the wine they boosted together from The Vipers.
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Nov 20, 2020 17:56
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It's also remarkable that Paulie actually owned up to encouraging Chris to drink and legitimately felt bad about it, while Tony didn't give a poo poo at all.
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Nov 20, 2020 18:17
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BiggerBoat posted:Tony also encouraged Chris to indulge in the wine they boosted together from The Vipers. "W-w-we're with the Vipers!" Also that was terribly sad that was the only thing they could think to bond over... right after bonding over it.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:11
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Dawgstar posted:"W-w-we're with the Vipers!" And when they try to recreate the moment later on it just leads to awkwardness.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:21
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Pope Corky the IX posted:It's also remarkable that Paulie actually owned up to encouraging Chris to drink and legitimately felt bad about it, while Tony didn't give a poo poo at all. The scene where Paulie's getting a drink and orders a club soda for Chris was a very sweet moment for him, I thought. Then of course in typical Paulie fashion he instantly switches to enabler mode once Chris falls off the wagon and decides to order alcohol but you can only expect so much from the guy
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Nov 20, 2020 19:22
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Ainsley McTree posted:The scene where Paulie's getting a drink and orders a club soda for Chris was a very sweet moment for him, I thought. Then of course in typical Paulie fashion he instantly switches to enabler mode once Chris falls off the wagon and decides to order alcohol but you can only expect so much from the guy Paulie and Chris making up the night after they kill the waiter is pretty funny: "Look at what happened last night, one of could have gotten hurt, or even killed!"
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Nov 20, 2020 23:36
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potee posted:Paulie and Chris making up the night after they kill the waiter is pretty funny: "Look at what happened last night, one of could have gotten hurt, or even killed!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Arnvjb6p0&t=80s
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Nov 20, 2020 23:48
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Now I like to think that their forced-sounding laughter at Big Mouth Billy Bass was intentional.
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Nov 21, 2020 00:05
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Most of them were alcoholics and Chris was the only one who actually admitted it. Tony was probably drunk or half drunk most of his waking life.
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Nov 21, 2020 01:29
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One gets the impression that drugs come with the lifestyle. Probably guys like Silvio or Paulie don't do it because it's not for them/it would interfere with work. But Tony never seems to turn down coke and now that I'm thinking about it, he pretty much takes any drugs offered him. But aside from drink, no downers really, nothing to slow him down. He leaves the hospital twice not really caring much about painkillers which back then in America were pretty damned plentiful, probably a lot more than now. Maybe doing drugs fits with his mood disorder (or whatever), his risk-seeking behavior.
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Nov 21, 2020 03:08
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phasmid posted:One gets the impression that drugs come with the lifestyle. Probably guys like Silvio or Paulie don't do it because it's not for them/it would interfere with work. But Tony never seems to turn down coke and now that I'm thinking about it, he pretty much takes any drugs offered him. But aside from drink, no downers really, nothing to slow him down. He leaves the hospital twice not really caring much about painkillers which back then in America were pretty damned plentiful, probably a lot more than now. It absolutely does. A chronic depressive seeking ever greater novelties and pleasures to try and fill the gaping hole in himself is not at all surprising veni veni veni posted:Most of them were alcoholics and Chris was the only one who actually admitted it. Tony was probably drunk or half drunk most of his waking life. Yeah, on rewatch it's amazing how often he has a drink of some sort in his hand. Maybe don't get drunk every single night, Tone, you might not feel as miserable all the time
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Nov 21, 2020 11:19
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Barry Foster posted:Yeah, on rewatch it's amazing how often he has a drink of some sort in his hand. Maybe don't get drunk every single night, Tone, you might not feel as miserable all the time You really notice how lovely most of their home lives are during a rewatch too. They're always in these slick suits, fancy cars, spending tons of cash constantly yet going back to run down houses and constantly having money troubles. Paulie: single, lives in a decent apartment, but pretty sparse/barebones. Was spending $$$ amounts taking care of his mother though, so not too crazy but the instant he had a bad run it was an insane panic Vito: Never remember much, had 2 kids and a well off home situation but was also the biggest earner by a lot Sil: Seems the most normal from outside appearances but as a consigliere was no better off then any of the other captains, maybe worse seen he wasn't running a crew? Chris: Pretty notorious for always having money troubles, especially after he was made (Paulie was loving squeezing him though) Bobby: Junior's babysitter for long time not really earning, but looked like most of his money went to provide for his family, also didn't have a series of comares he was showing off for Furio: Got the impression he was the real deal, provide and take care of family, not blowing all his cash on vices and expenses Big Pussy: Pretty well established he was moving H in the first place to pay for his kid's college Raymond: Informing for the feds, dngaf and only cared about getting cash to take care of his disabled son
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Nov 21, 2020 11:48
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veni veni veni posted:Most of them were alcoholics and Chris was the only one who actually admitted it. Tony was probably drunk or half drunk most of his waking life. Tony's big revelation in Las Vegas is that killing Christopher justified his own gambling addiction.
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Nov 21, 2020 12:16
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pentyne posted:Raymond: Informing for the feds, dngaf and only cared about getting cash to take care of his disabled son It's physically. challenged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2F_CdSIpi4
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Nov 21, 2020 12:35
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The only nice houses I can think of were Tony's (in that McMansion way), Johnny's, the one Chris bought and the one Richie and Janice were going to buy. I wonder how much of it was not buying things up because they knew the feds could come and take it.
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Nov 21, 2020 14:38
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pentyne posted:Sil: Seems the most normal from outside appearances but as a consigliere was no better off then any of the other captains, maybe worse seen he wasn't running a crew? Maybe getting a cut from everything that gets washed by the Bing? I don't think they ever say who officially owns it, but he obviously makes the books work. Still probably ain't that much though.
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Nov 21, 2020 14:47
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From what I remember, Sil owns the Bing and he’s also had ownership in music clubs over the years, which is why he counsels Christopher and Adriana about the Crazy Horse.
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Nov 21, 2020 15:59
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Pope Corky the IX posted:From what I remember, Sil owns the Bing and he’s also had ownership in music clubs over the years, which is why he counsels Christopher and Adriana about the Crazy Horse. Yeah, apparently Sil running clubs (and well enough to have some decent connections even if they had lain fallow) was his straight job and he was decent at it.
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Nov 21, 2020 16:17
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I don't think we should infer too much about their financial situations based on them living in "crappy" houses. I'm not saying they could all afford McMansions like Tony's, but not everyone wants a big fancy house. They could like the neighborhood or are comfortable in a house like they grew up in or want to maintain a low profile or just plain prefer something simple. Junior probably lived in his dusty old house for like 60 years and doesn't want or need to upgrade. I'm sure he spent hundreds of thousands on lawyers (edit: and doctors) over the course of the show so it's not like he couldn't move if he wanted to.
Human Tornada fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 20:47
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Dawgstar posted:The only nice houses I can think of were Tony's (in that McMansion way), Johnny's, the one Chris bought and the one Richie and Janice were going to buy. I wonder how much of it was not buying things up because they knew the feds could come and take it. Money laundering is hard. Well, not really but it does make it a lot of work to generate enough legit income to buy big things. Like, Chris buying that home would have been all the FBI needed to ransack through a ton of their fronts. edit: And having dealt directly with FinCen before, I can tell you that if they have enough to look you're already way past screwed. Solice Kirsk fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 21, 2020 |
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Nov 21, 2020 20:52
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Human Tornada posted:I don't think we should infer too much about their financial situations based on them living in "crappy" houses. I'm not saying they could all afford McMansions like Tony's, but not everyone wants a big fancy house. They could like the neighborhood or are comfortable in a house like they grew up in or want to maintain a low profile or just plain prefer something simple. Junior probably lived in his dusty old house for like 60 years and doesn't want or need to upgrade. I'm sure he spent hundreds of thousands on lawyers (edit: and doctors) over the course of the show so it's not like he couldn't move if he wanted to. And you probably don't want a nicer house than the boss.' Richie only went for his because he thought he could get the rest of the family on his side against Tony but ha ha well.
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Nov 22, 2020 04:46
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Human Tornada posted:I don't think we should infer too much about their financial situations based on them living in "crappy" houses. I'm not saying they could all afford McMansions like Tony's, but not everyone wants a big fancy house. They could like the neighborhood or are comfortable in a house like they grew up in or want to maintain a low profile or just plain prefer something simple. Junior probably lived in his dusty old house for like 60 years and doesn't want or need to upgrade. I'm sure he spent hundreds of thousands on lawyers (edit: and doctors) over the course of the show so it's not like he couldn't move if he wanted to. It's not the houses so much as all the constant griping and moaning about money. They were the equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck with bad spending habits. Granted most of the money was illegal but Beansie pretty clearly saw the path forward in setting up business fronts to make money legally. Paulie was a major player for multiple decades and didn't build anything up to provide long term income like that. I think it was more just wasteful spending then anything else as once Angie gets the bodyshop running well she's making more then enough money to take care of herself and also put money out on the street.
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Nov 22, 2020 05:25
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Dawgstar posted:And you probably don't want a nicer house than the boss.' Richie only went for his because he thought he could get the rest of the family on his side against Tony but ha ha well. I just watched the Talking Sopranos podcast where the actor who played RItchie was on and, my god. He sounds NOTHING like the character. It was a little jarring being reminded that, yes, this man is in fact a really good actor and just listening to him speak in his normal voice and with his own inflection.
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Nov 22, 2020 06:23
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BiggerBoat posted:I just watched the Talking Sopranos podcast where the actor who played RItchie was on and, my god. He sounds NOTHING like the character. It was a little jarring being reminded that, yes, this man is in fact a really good actor and just listening to him speak in his normal voice and with his own inflection. He was in the Ralph Bakshi animated movie "Hey Good Lookin' ". The was the strangest part of a pretty strange movie.
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Nov 22, 2020 10:46
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pentyne posted:It's not the houses so much as all the constant griping and moaning about money. They were the equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck with bad spending habits. Hesh talks about that in (I think) the episode where Tony upgrades his yacht. Hesh estimates Tony's net worth including the house is maybe 6 million, which like you said is pretty bad for a 20 year career as a crime boss. "In one hand, out the other."
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Nov 22, 2020 15:58
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I believe Hesh said the yacht was $2 million with no resale value and that he had warned Tony against it. EDIT: It also shows how idiotically Tony is behaving by that point. He used to go to Hesh about any big purchases (horse, Whitecaps) and sometimes had him join in on meetings with his attorney. Pope Corky the IX fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 16:13
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phasmid posted:He was in the Ralph Bakshi animated movie "Hey Good Lookin' ". The was the strangest part of a pretty strange movie. I recently noticed him in Mean Streets which was his first movie role. Manson Lamps are easy to recognize. I don't remember him in Brady Bunch Movie or Shawshank Redemption at all but IMDB says he was in those too. Apparently he read for Tony as well. Pope Corky the IX posted:I believe Hesh said the yacht was $2 million with no resale value and that he had warned Tony against it. There's a weird moment in one episode where Hesh is asked what Tony is worth and I think he says "Maybe three?" Seems like he'd be worth more than that. I think most of the mobsters having modest houses might have a lot to do with not being able to show legit income for something like that. The higher ups can probably show six figure incomes but I doubt the capos can. Junior just seems like a dude who doesn't really give a gently caress about a mansion. I doubt they can launder ALL that money into a believable W2 either. You can buy clothes, cars, jewelry, electronics and go to fancy restaurants and poo poo with cash but pretty sure property works a little different. And I never got the sense that Tony was drunk all the time. He's shown a few times getting completely wrecked but I don't recall seeing him drink a lot. He does the mandatory toasts they have from time to time. The idea of him having a real drinking problem seems as out of left field as his sudden gambling addiction.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:32
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BiggerBoat posted:Apparently he read for Tony as well. Yeah, that would have been interesting. Some people dismiss the idea because they seem to think think David Proval would have played it like Richie and that most likely would not have been the case. What's would be cool to see is how he would have made up for the fact that one of Tony's things is being built like a linebacker (even if he never had the makings of a varsity athlete) and while David Proval has tremendous moxie for his size he's like two inches shorter than me.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:53
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Good actor but I think he might be a little too much of a heavy for the Tony role. Gandolfini probably looks better on magazines and such where you think, "sure, he's tough but maybe there's some vestige of goodness" whereas Provol would get a more villainous treatment. I feel like that would alter the show considerably. It might even make the protagonist THE bad guy (though there's still an argument as things are).
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Nov 22, 2020 21:38
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