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Spanish Matlock posted:"Oh god I can feel his emotions... touching me... in places." "Captain, can we send Barclay off the bridge for a few minutes? Ideally all the way to the far end of the ship? His neuroses are overwhelming everything, and I can't sense what the Romulans are feeling because of his constant insecurities".
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Nov 28, 2020 10:07
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Wait, Georgiou didn't appear this episode. Or the human trill teenager (haven't learned her name). Characters just disappearing from the ship because the story doesn't require them is so jarring.
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Nov 28, 2020 10:15
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Carbon dioxide posted:Imagine Barclay as XO of the Enterprise. God, that's something I'd like to see, even if it was just one episode. Maybe a Disaster type situation, where Reg's the ranking officer on the bridge when poo poo goes down. It's right behind SFDebris' thesis that him & Seven would be a perfect match for Barclay content I'd like to see.
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Nov 28, 2020 10:20
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Alchenar posted:Wait, Georgiou didn't appear this episode. Or the human trill teenager (haven't learned her name). It really does feel like we're running into "Cities so like Earth's" territory with the budget, considering they dropped three supposedly-main characters (Adira, Gray, and Georgiou), and our trip to Vulcan consisted of a Special Guest Star, a possible recurring guest star (the Vulcan President) and three extras in basic Romulan and Vulcan makeup all coming UP to a potentially-hostile vessel where they can use an existing setpiece rather than having a delegation from the ship that appeared from nowhere travel to an expensive one-off set or location shoot where they won't be a threat to key Ni'Var representatives.
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Nov 28, 2020 10:34
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Making Tilly the XO makes me think that maybe the actress was owed a favor or something, because it makes no sense. Hanging a lampshade on it by having her say "but I'm just an ensign" doesn't make it any better. Maybe the Admiral was right when he wanted to split the crew up into other ships in the fleet and retrain people. The crew of the Discovery keeps making nonsense decisions. Having Burnham be The Last Samurai who is the only one who can truly unite the Vulcans and Romulans was dumb as hell. Erasing everything Spock ever did by saying he was influenced by Burnham is even more dumb. I can't wait for Strange New Worlds where every episode ends with Spock going to his quarters, looking at a picture of Michael, and saying "I'm doing all this because of you, secret sister that no one can know about ever again until 930 years in the future."
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Nov 28, 2020 10:51
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I thought Saru's reasoning was in part actually quite good: "Everyone else has been unprofessional and letting their personal issues get in the way, you're one of the few people who has actually kept their poo poo together" particularly given her role in the previous episode of being the 'tell the Admiral or you'll get sacked' voice of reason, but that's a reason to start her on the path to command. They just skipped right to the end of her arc without doing any of the work. Admittedly this has been Tilly's arc for all three seasons that they've reset, so in a well made show she would naturally be command material by now.
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Nov 28, 2020 11:00
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It could have felt at least a tiny bit more natural if they had done something like having Tilly as acting science officer and absolutely smashing it in a couple of tasks showing the crew really respects her.
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Nov 28, 2020 11:14
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Yvonmukluk posted:Was the renamed Sao Paolo given its predecessor's registration number too? The shots of the new Defiant showed the same NX-74205 as the original Defiant, but only because they were heavily relying on stock footage or stock model passes composited into new shots. The producers said we should cross our eyes and pretend it says NCC-74205-A.
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Nov 28, 2020 11:38
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Alchenar posted:I thought Saru's reasoning was in part actually quite good: "Everyone else has been unprofessional and letting their personal issues get in the way, you're one of the few people who has actually kept their poo poo together" particularly given her role in the previous episode of being the 'tell the Admiral or you'll get sacked' voice of reason, but that's a reason to start her on the path to command. They just skipped right to the end of her arc without doing any of the work. Also in some fairness, actually commanding people and handling the various logistics of running a spaceship and managing a crew is a wholly different skillset than taking care of whatever technical duties comprise your post on the ship. Even just by having gone through (most of) the officer training program, Tilly is probably somewhat better equipped for that kind of thing than most other characters. Stamets is a brilliant scientist, but quite obviously a pretty horrible boss. Culber is a great physician and overall sweetheart, but doesn't seem to have any experience with command authority. Owo and Detmer both seem to be purely technical specialists at their respective posts, again without much doing any sort of commanding. I guess technically Nilsson could've been a good fit, but honestly she's barely a character so far 
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Nov 28, 2020 14:18
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MikeJF posted:The shots of the new Defiant showed the same NX-74205 as the original Defiant, but only because they were heavily relying on stock footage or stock model passes composited into new shots. The producers said we should cross our eyes and pretend it says NCC-74205-A.
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Nov 28, 2020 14:27
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Perestroika posted:Also in some fairness, actually commanding people and handling the various logistics of running a spaceship and managing a crew is a wholly different skillset than taking care of whatever technical duties comprise your post on the ship. Even just by having gone through (most of) the officer training program, Tilly is probably somewhat better equipped for that kind of thing than most other characters. Stamets is a brilliant scientist, but quite obviously a pretty horrible boss. Culber is a great physician and overall sweetheart, but doesn't seem to have any experience with command authority. Owo and Detmer both seem to be purely technical specialists at their respective posts, again without much doing any sort of commanding. Owo and Detmer spend their days on the bridge watching command happen. We don't know anything much about their training (or anyone's really) but Trek shows have had helm, navigation or operations officers take command positions before (Sulu, Data, probably Paris a couple times). Tilly bounces back and forth between bridge and spore drive, I wouldn't say she's more trained or better equipped than any of the other bridge crew. To me though the obvious disqualification for Tilly is not her particular expertise but her inexperience and personality. She's been through a lot and not quite gone screaming mad, which is something, but would you really want her as your boss if your life was on the line? Of course she's a Main Character so we can say fairly well she's not gonna be incompetent and get the ship blown up, but would the other characters really agree with that meta-knowledge?
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Nov 28, 2020 15:06
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skasion posted:Owo and Detmer spend their days on the bridge watching command happen. We don't know anything much about their training (or anyone's really) but Trek shows have had helm, navigation or operations officers take command positions before (Sulu, Data, probably Paris a couple times). Tilly bounces back and forth between bridge and spore drive, I wouldn't say she's more trained or better equipped than any of the other bridge crew. To me though the obvious disqualification for Tilly is not her particular expertise but her inexperience and personality. She's been through a lot and not quite gone screaming mad, which is something, but would you really want her as your boss if your life was on the line? Of course she's a Main Character so we can say fairly well she's not gonna be incompetent and get the ship blown up, but would the other characters really agree with that meta-knowledge? One of the few things Voyager did okay was having Ensign Kim take command as character development a few times. They mostly toss it in the background or setup for episodes, but he was getting experience in by sitting in the captain's chair for the third shift every so often. It's still really laughable that he was an Ensign after seven years though, considering Paris bounces between ranks and Tuvok gets a promotion.
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Nov 28, 2020 15:24
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Please don't put 'Harry Kim' and 'character development' in same sentence. I see what you mean there, it could have happened but did not happen. This was a good example of a possible set-up for his promotion that was unused. It would have been earned, furthermore with usual "Trek Command Track" with being an XO in 5 years and own ship in 10 or something like that (last I heard it in trek09, blasphemy but still) (dont remember exact number of years tho)
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Nov 28, 2020 15:38
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It was a nice star trek sorta episode for once where the issue wasn't solved with violence. I think if we'd not had every single episode totally 100% focusing on Burnham before this I'd have enjoyed it a lot more. I'd really like to know what Ni'var thought the Fed was doing before the burn that made them close to leaving, which the president mentions. Did they actually say why it was renamed Ni'var? I get that the Romulans moved there, but why that name? If they did, I missed it.
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Nov 28, 2020 16:12
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They've done a set up for a plot line for Tilly to spend an episode fumbling about, slowly irritating the people she passed up. The episode ends with everyone teaching her that they are there to help Tilly, but not do her job for her. Then she becomes the greatest Number One of all time. At least, that would be the easy route, but frankly Disco has been better than that lately.
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Nov 28, 2020 16:26
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Nov 28, 2020 17:32
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CaptainSkinny posted:They've done a set up for a plot line for Tilly to spend an episode fumbling about, slowly irritating the people she passed up. The episode ends with everyone teaching her that they are there to help Tilly, but not do her job for her. Then she becomes the greatest Number One of all time. That would require an episode that doesn't focus on Michael Burnham, saviour of Ni'Var and Sister of Spock. You know, given that Discovery almost exclusively Spore Jumps about, why bother with the detached nacelles?
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Nov 28, 2020 17:34
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You know, given that Discovery almost exclusively Spore Jumps about, why bother with the detached nacelles? IT'S THE FUTURE
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Nov 28, 2020 17:41
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Perestroika posted:I guess technically Nilsson could've been a good fit, but honestly she's barely a character so far
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Nov 28, 2020 17:45
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skasion posted:Owo and Detmer spend their days on the bridge watching command happen. We don't know anything much about their training (or anyone's really) but Trek shows have had helm, navigation or operations officers take command positions before (Sulu, Data, probably Paris a couple times). Tilly bounces back and forth between bridge and spore drive, I wouldn't say she's more trained or better equipped than any of the other bridge crew. To me though the obvious disqualification for Tilly is not her particular expertise but her inexperience and personality. She's been through a lot and not quite gone screaming mad, which is something, but would you really want her as your boss if your life was on the line? Of course she's a Main Character so we can say fairly well she's not gonna be incompetent and get the ship blown up, but would the other characters really agree with that meta-knowledge? It's a problem when Staments says "taking orders from you would be weird and a bit insulting" and that seems perfectly reasonable and then nothing else happens for the rest of the episode and then there's a scene at the end where he's completely changed his mind. I would have struggled to find the story convincing if it were fully developed with a few scenes of Staments reconsidering, but it feels like that entire B plot got ripped out in the editing room but they had 180 seconds of runtime they thought they needed to fill for some reason so the start and end survived.
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Nov 28, 2020 19:22
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Why does Michael whisper all the time?
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Nov 28, 2020 19:23
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The ancient rite of DEBATE ME, COWARD.
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Nov 28, 2020 19:28
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Alchenar posted:It's a problem when Staments says "taking orders from you would be weird and a bit insulting" and that seems perfectly reasonable and then nothing else happens for the rest of the episode and then there's a scene at the end where he's completely changed his mind. To be fair he doesn't say "insulting", he says "disturbing" which while not good isn't quite as bad. In the scene they also get interrupted and Tilly kinda storms off before he Stamets finishes processing it and presumably gives the OK. I agree with you that it's not well handled, though.
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Nov 28, 2020 19:35
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You know, given that Discovery almost exclusively Spore Jumps about, why bother with the detached nacelles? It's for enhanced maneuverability! Saru said so! At this point, I feel like you're skepticism that this was necessary is arbitrary, or just in bad faith. Cutting the necessary parts off of a vehicle always enhances maneuverability. The only reason airplanes have their nacelles at all is because Big Flying wanted to make sure that it could make would-be pilots pay out the rear end for training. Having engines attached to the wings makes planes hard to maneuver, and a lot of training and skill is required. Cut them off, and planes are so easy to operate, and so god drat maneuverable, that a child could do it in their sleep. Enhanced maneuverability. It's like you're trying not to get it.
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Nov 28, 2020 21:30
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Alchenar posted:It's a problem when Staments says "taking orders from you would be weird and a bit insulting" and that seems perfectly reasonable and then nothing else happens for the rest of the episode and then there's a scene at the end where he's completely changed his mind. Nah, that one I get. He was Stametsing his way through the discussion in his usual curmudgeonly way, and was about to say..."But yeah, I would totally take orders from you, go for it." but got interrupted and she bounced off. I think before he had even said "taking orders from you would be weird" he'd already decided to support her. At least that's how I read the scene.
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Nov 28, 2020 22:34
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Cojawfee posted:Erasing everything Spock ever did by saying he was influenced by Burnham is even more dumb. 
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Nov 28, 2020 22:35
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sticklefifer posted:People keep saying this but I didn't get that vibe at all. Nobody was giving her all the credit for Spock. She influenced his human side, which we had already seen from his mother in previous Treks (and this one). Nobody ever implied he wasn't his own person or that his Vulcan side had no merit or that he only ever did everything for Michael, but internet gotta hyperbole I guess. Just like how everyone's casually ignoring that Saru only offered Tilly a temporary position. If she ends up keeping it, it'll be The Worst Decision Ever Made™, and if she doesn't end up keeping it everyone will be like "it's because we complained online" when you think about it, everything is temporary
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Nov 28, 2020 22:37
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sticklefifer posted:People keep saying this but I didn't get that vibe at all. Nobody was giving her all the credit for Spock. She influenced his human side, which we had already seen from his mother in previous Treks (and this one). Nobody ever implied he wasn't his own person or that his Vulcan side had no merit or that he only ever did everything for Michael, but internet gotta hyperbole I guess. Just like how everyone's casually ignoring that Saru only offered Tilly a temporary position. If she ends up keeping it, it'll be The Worst Decision Ever Made™, and if she doesn't end up keeping it everyone will be like "it's because we complained online" Yeah, no kidding about Spock. I mean, it was just something a stranger said to give Burnham a compliment, it doesn't mean poo poo about Spock's character
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Nov 28, 2020 22:53
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Spanish Matlock posted:"Oh god I can feel his emotions... touching me... in places." 
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Nov 28, 2020 22:55
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Astroman posted:Nah, that one I get. He was Stametsing his way through the discussion in his usual curmudgeonly way, and was about to say..."But yeah, I would totally take orders from you, go for it." but got interrupted and she bounced off. I think before he had even said "taking orders from you would be weird" he'd already decided to support her. At least that's how I read the scene. I don't think he had the words ready but I agree at the end of the scene he's clearly already reconsidering what he's said. It's still a problem that the show makes no effort to establish why 'no you are an ensign with no command experience it would be weird and wrong for me to take orders from you' is not a compelling end to the discussion.
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Nov 28, 2020 22:56
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Not that the writing on this show is at all competent, but acting positions are often used as a means of basically giving someone with potential an opportunity to learn the role from first-hand experience, demonstrate the necessary competence, and learn if it's actually a good fit for them.
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Nov 29, 2020 00:21
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Yeah, no kidding about Spock. I mean, it was just something a stranger said to give Burnham a compliment, it doesn't mean poo poo about Spock's character Yeah, "I see where they get it from" is the most generic "yeah, you're quite like that thing about your friend/sibling/kid/etc that I have particularly noticed"
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Nov 29, 2020 00:29
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The real disappointment is when you realize it's just ripping off Mass Effect wholesale and hoping nobody will notice. I dont think I'll ever get over how much of the I should replay ME1 at some point, I remember loving just sitting there listening to the lore entries in the menu.
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Nov 29, 2020 01:02
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mythicknight posted:I dont think I'll ever get over how much of the And taking the generic android and putting a Starfleet logo on its chest like lol
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Nov 29, 2020 01:10
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I don't think you can call it cribbing when it's a service explicitly for paying for footage/photos to use that you didn't create.
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Nov 29, 2020 01:23
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I mean, they already went over why Burnham wasn't remembered in Trek before this. Burnham Prime died on Vulcan, eaten by rando fauna beast. It was her mom loving with the timeline that set her up as Deus Ex MacDaughter. And that has shown in her attitude throughout the series as she literally had a guardian angel rewriting history so she'd be in the right places at the right times to become the perfect foil for Control. No wonder she goes off the tracks once she gets some time to herself in the future. Up to that point, she'd literally been railroaded into history. Along those lines, it's even funnier when her moms shows up at just the right place and time as the old bird just can't keep from self-inserting herself and her family into history over and over again. Am I wrong? This was pretty much all set-up during the episode where they followed the mom from minute one of her timestream fuckery up until the original suit was destroyed on Planet Asphyxia.
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Nov 29, 2020 01:51
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SpeakSlow posted:I mean, they already went over why Burnham wasn't remembered in Trek before this. Burnham Prime died on Vulcan, eaten by rando fauna beast. It was her mom loving with the timeline that set her up as Deus Ex MacDaughter. So, does this theory mean that there's one timeline where Michael is eaten by shelaks on Vulcan the original timeline,) one where Spock is eaten (the Yesteryear timeline) and one where the mom interferes with the timeline (the Discovery timeline?)
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Nov 29, 2020 01:54
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This is some Zelda timeline shiz
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Nov 29, 2020 02:01
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The mental gymnastics people willing to do to defend lovely writing. Amazing.
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Nov 29, 2020 02:09
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Taear posted:I'd really like to know what Ni'var thought the Fed was doing before the burn that made them close to leaving, which the president mentions. They do go into that for about a minute in the episode - basically the Federation was too big, vastly overextended, and using way too much dilithium, which is what prompted the SB-19 project in the first place. Taear posted:Did they actually say why it was renamed Ni'var? I get that the Romulans moved there, but why that name? If they did, I missed it. They didn't in the show. It's a fan callout; someone wrote fanfic about Vulcan in the late 60s (I'm not joking), where "ni var" meant two forms; someone remembered that and thought it'd be a good name for Vulcanoromulus. (The fact that both alien species named their planet/race after Earth Roman mythological figures is left unmentioned.)
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Nov 29, 2020 02:26
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