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Not this poo poo again!!! Listen here buddy, the Minkowski diagram is not the territory, the math is the territory. Try plugging FTL numbers into the Lorentz factor and you get imaginary results. Try calculating the actual angles in the Minkowski diagrams directly using the hyperbolic functions and you'll find they are literally undefined. No one can show that imaginary time dilation or undefined length contraction implies causality somehow has been violated, instead it obviously implies the theory has been applied outside of its domain. You can only get that result by drawing lines wrong on a piece of paper and thinking they have physical meaning. It is clear that there is no way to launch an FTL spaceship from Earth and have it return before it left if you stay in Earth's reference. Even if it moves at infinite speed it will not return at a local time before it left. Nor will the dudes on the ship think they returned before they left. "Light echoes" of the ship may appear to be traveling backwards through space and the ship may appear before those but not before leaving. By extension, no frame of reference that has ever shared an inertial frame with the Earth can witness any causality paradoxes as they can calculate what the true local time of the Earth is. Now causality isn't some kind of mathematical result that plopped out of some theory, it is an abstract philosophical ideal underlying all of physics. It doesn't "travel at some speed", it's an ordering of events. If that ordering is well-defined in some frames and undefined in others, then it would seem that those frames are the preferred ones and the others are artificial. When people say "FTL violates causality" they are saying that that those undefined frames are the preferred ones, as even if they're not smart enough to realize they're drawing the diagrams wrong, they could at least have invoked some kind of cosmic censorship hypothesis to invalidate the undefined frames. In conclusion: The theory of relativity in its current state simply does not and cannot apply to superluminal speeds. It has nothing to say about them. Physicists need to stop spreading this bullshit.
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Dec 16, 2020 11:34
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A grey in a long velvet robe, holding the blade of a knife into a fire "I am now traveling faster than light !!"
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Dec 16, 2020 11:40
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Like, we know from comet orbital periods that they have to achieve superluminal speed at some point relative to the apogee, and since it’s nearly impossible to calculate relative angular momentum of an elliptical period we have to assume that it makes a line to a nexus at the pedigree, the last observable moment, as it exits and re-enters 3D spacetime, and that the apogee is represented by dividing the quantum length of the line from pedigree to pedigree. The frames model would mean the comet would have to create a particle ray ahead of itself, which means heat and shrinking mass, and no comet at all, rather than a told duality of a ground state as the angular momentum is fully expended. The apogee could be anywhere within that voltage threshold, and would certainly explain accumulated free matter at the edge of the heat envelope of the universe as a coherent, gravitationally bound body, rather than a neverending expansionist universe where chaos dictates that some matter should avoid gravitational capture and experience a heat death as a product of the assumed finite elasticity of light.
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Dec 16, 2020 12:03
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I can see UFOs being drones sent out tens of thousands of years ago to all planets which could contain life. Got no idea why they'd be buzzing around our sky randomly for hundreds of years though. No way would actual ETs set out personally themselves for long voyages to planets which there'd be no evidence of life from at the time they set out. Bringing up magic ways of travelling just because we want to imagine actual green aliens personally observing us is silly.
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Dec 16, 2020 12:19
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Mooey Cow posted:In conclusion: The theory of relativity in its current state simply does not and cannot apply to superluminal speeds. It has nothing to say about them. Physicists need to stop spreading this bullshit. This matters because if the aliens have the hyperdrive and
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Dec 16, 2020 12:21
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Nessus posted:Right, like, there could very well be other reasons why you can't go faster than light, so why is the one cited that it's literally impossible due to this? "It would take infinite energy" is, I gather, also basically true and seems like a much stronger reason. It doesn't explicitly say it's impossible to go faster than light. It just says that you can't accelerate an object that has a rest mass to light speed and we observe that fact every day in particle accelerators. There are actually known loopholes in our current understanding of the universe that seem to allow something to travel between two points faster than light could(wormholes, the alcubierre drive, etc.), but we don't really have anything to describe what would happen if you were to actually do that. According to our best current understanding it would violate causality and nobody has any ideas what that would even mean or how it would look like. Causality is the fundamental rock on which all physics is build. Because of that and the fact that the light speed limit is such a fundamental aspect of how the universe works, the current majority opinion in physics is that these loopholes aren't real loopholes and we simply just don't understand enough to see why yet. Everyone would be ecstatic to discover an ftl phenomenon, but most physicists don't have very high hopes. It just doesn't look likely from our current understanding.
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Dec 16, 2020 14:23
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Conspiratiorist posted:The problem occurs when you include another frame of reference.  Oh, yeah. I followed THIS through, clearly with out it sounding like the rantings of a mad man. Totally.
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Dec 16, 2020 14:59
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Why is FTL breaking causality just because we’ve never seen anything go faster? 1000 years ago we could drop a rock off a mountain and calculate terminal velocity and say “yup, that’s the fastest things go” because it was the fastest things go in our environment naturally. Maybe if you space-grease the photons they can go way faster Edit: Maybe all the probing is space grease testing?? teardrop fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 15:22
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Dec 16, 2020 16:59
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My dad works for Nintendo and he went faster than light once with Mario and also Sonic the hedgehog.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:19
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GABA ghoul posted:It doesn't explicitly say it's impossible to go faster than light. It just says that you can't accelerate an object that has a rest mass to light speed and we observe that fact every day in particle accelerators. FTL doesn't look possible in this current universe, as we know it. Pointing out that fact has gotten people mad at me because it shits all over sci-fi fantasies of more tech = more better always. Sometimes nature just says no. Like, a swarm of sublight probes or ships would have covered the entire galaxy in under a million years (IIRC less, but I don't have that article handy). If there was FTL, where is everyone? Who is going to pass up a temperate water world with a big moon? teardrop posted:Why is FTL breaking causality just because we’ve never seen anything go faster? 1000 years ago we could drop a rock off a mountain and calculate terminal velocity and say “yup, that’s the fastest things go” because it was the fastest things go in our environment naturally. " It [Relativity] just says that you can't accelerate an object that has a rest mass to light speed and we observe that fact every day in particle accelerators. " If light (and all EM radiation) would take longer than the age of the universe to reach you, you will never see it and therefore never know it. Light isn't just light, it's information. If you can outrun information, a great deal of paradoxes can form.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:24
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you can run but you can’t hide
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Dec 16, 2020 19:27
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hemale in pain posted:I can see UFOs being drones sent out tens of thousands of years ago to all planets which could contain life. Got no idea why they'd be buzzing around our sky randomly for hundreds of years though. Why would life be a factor? Other star systems are interesting enough to catalog even if there is no chance of life as we know it.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:54
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skooma512 posted:Who is going to pass up a temperate water world with a big moon? Once 'optimal' habitats can be built in space, why settle for the chaos and hassle of an ecosystem in a gravity well?
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Dec 16, 2020 19:55
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I like big moons and I cannot lie.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:56
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Facebook Aunt posted:Why would life be a factor? Other star systems are interesting enough to catalog even if there is no chance of life as we know it. i assume aliens are like us and would put huge emphasis on finding other life in the universe
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Dec 16, 2020 19:59
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Facebook Aunt posted:Why would life be a factor? Other star systems are interesting enough to catalog even if there is no chance of life as we know it. My uneducated guess is someplace that already sustains life even if differently or more dangerously from what you find at home might be a preferable colony to someplace barren because of the cost in resources, personnel, time, etc to terraform it. (Assuming their terraforming technology is anywhere close to our wildest practical guesses). Half the work of creating an atmosphere is already done by biological processes, and then it becomes an issue of pest management with how deadly/toxic the local flora and fauna is. Hell, even if not a colony- a pit stop along a vast galactic highway.
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Dec 16, 2020 20:12
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you'd still probably have to terraform it. earth used to have lots of life and no oxygen in the atmosphere
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Dec 16, 2020 20:21
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Conspiratiorist posted:FTL violates causality and that's literally magic. Same goes for quantum physics, though. And the inside of a black hole In not saying FTL is easy or probable, but id stop short of impossible. Regardless, if you're patient enough you can get many places Play fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 20:26
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Dammit Hugh stop being so obvious
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Dec 16, 2020 20:52
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PokeJoe posted:you'd still probably have to terraform it. earth used to have lots of life and no oxygen in the atmosphere Well yeah, but with whatever gases are already in the atmosphere you'd at least have atmo. pressure and possibly light shielding from cosmic rays.
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Dec 16, 2020 20:52
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frogge posted:Well yeah, but with whatever gases are already in the atmosphere you'd at least have atmo. pressure and possibly light shielding from cosmic rays. I got some gas for the atmosphere.  
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Dec 16, 2020 20:57
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More like rear end-mosphere
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Dec 16, 2020 21:00
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skooma512 posted:Light isn't just light, it's information. If you can outrun information, a great deal of paradoxes can form. What do you mean by information? How is there a top speed to information, and what is it in this context?
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Dec 16, 2020 21:27
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This time-travel discussion reads like mysticism/obscurantism.
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Dec 16, 2020 21:40
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Dec 16, 2020 22:04
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Accretionist posted:Once 'optimal' habitats can be built in space, why settle for the chaos and hassle of an ecosystem in a gravity well? Yeah, it doesn't look like they are here to steal our poo poo or stop us from killing the ecosphere. Even a single alien ship could have easily wiped out human civilization from orbit if that was the goal. Looking at what even our own primitive biotechnology and computing power can do nowadays, they can probably engineer ecosystems from scratch and keep them indefinitely stable through technology on their space habitats. So there isn't anything materially valuable here for them. The only cool thing I can think of to do here is to study our ecosystem. That's something you can't do anywhere else in the universea. It's all highly complex, interconnected and truly planet sized. You can't do it in a lab. You have to put boots on the ground and probe some asses. e: also, I guess our culture is something that might be interesting to them? But you can probably get the gist of it by stealing a library and a data center. I dunno, it's not that interesting. Mostly just talking about eating, loving, killing and how much it sucks too be sentient GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 22:38
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GABA ghoul posted:Yeah, it doesn't look like they are here to steal our poo poo or stop us from killing the ecosphere. Even a single alien ship could have easily wiped out human civilization from orbit if that was the goal. I think if there were some greys hanging out outside of the planet, they’re probably not too interested in mass murder is all. It’s mean and evil
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Dec 16, 2020 23:13
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https://youtu.be/GwSOaJbJiqk
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Dec 16, 2020 23:27
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https://youtu.be/-VN-tDV6_Og
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Dec 16, 2020 23:32
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In the core of planets and stars and black holes (former super massive stars) are portals that are linked via some kind of field that binds all energy down to the quarks, enabling quantum copies of matter and energy that merges with the singularity, and allows the copy to instantaneously emerge in another time-space while simultaneously being destroyed in the original time-space.
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Dec 16, 2020 23:53
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Dick Bastardly posted:In the core of planets and stars and black holes (former super massive stars) are portals that are linked via some kind of field that binds all energy down to the quarks, enabling quantum copies of matter and energy that merges with the singularity, and allows the copy to instantaneously emerge in another time-space while simultaneously being destroyed in the original time-space. I read about this recently, and it's changing the way the way they look at dark matter and how gay I am. I'm gay.
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Dec 16, 2020 23:57
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Nessus posted:Consensual sex. If they can do that, why are they constantly abducting and sodomizing hillbillies?
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Dec 16, 2020 23:58
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Big Beef City posted:
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Dec 16, 2020 23:59
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Who's this guy? What does he want?
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Dec 17, 2020 00:00
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skooma512 posted:Like, a swarm of sublight probes or ships would have covered the entire galaxy in under a million years (IIRC less, but I don't have that article handy). If there was FTL, where is everyone? Who is going to pass up a temperate water world with a big moon? This is the really important question, and it applies even if there is not FTL because it doesn't take that long on a galactic scale for automated replicating probes to spread out. There are a lot of potentially interesting answers, but the one most relevant to this thread is "They're already here, and that's what's on those F18 tapes."
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Dec 17, 2020 00:00
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Big Beef City posted:I read about this recently, and it's changing the way the way they look at dark matter and how gay I am. If you are gay and enter one of these quantum portals, it automatically makes you like 50x more gay, and if you continue to do so in each multiverse iteration, you'll eventually become the gayest interdimentional being that exists
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Dec 17, 2020 01:59
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Log082 posted:This is the really important question, and it applies even if there is not FTL because it doesn't take that long on a galactic scale for automated replicating probes to spread out. I like the "they already killed everyone and we're next" theory
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Dec 17, 2020 02:04
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https://twitter.com/mnsheriffs/status/1339360845567025155?s=21 Gentlemen, we got em
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Dec 17, 2020 02:28
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What if our destruction of the ecosystem is what they're studying ??
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Dec 17, 2020 02:33
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