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Erulisse posted:There is a reason I prefer discussing shows mostly in-universe and/or contained within universe-told borders. isis or palestine are totally different things with their own history. "if i were being exploited i would simply form a union" is some purestrain tviv politicsposting lol
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Jan 2, 2021 20:27
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gfarrell80 posted:Correct, the show has already shown what the Inners do to peaceful belters. Well this is a good chunk of info. Thanks. There is some missing info afaik but helps with putting actions into perspective. My main gripe with Marco's actions is still the uncertainty of his actions. We are not being shown something really important and it feels. Hope it plays out well in true spirit of the show. Don't want to spoil myself with books.
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Jan 2, 2021 20:40
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Erulisse posted:Don't want to spoil myself with books. Yeah I'm not going to post anything but do keep in mind we're only partway through the story. A lot of the stuff you guys are confused about or think doesn't make sense is addressed later.
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Jan 2, 2021 20:45
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GABA ghoul posted:I think the collapse of the Soviet Union is a good comparison. Total collapse of life as people knew it, a decade of hell and then existence as a mid level player. So Mars will eventually help elect their whipping boy in John Barron Trump?
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Jan 2, 2021 21:19
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I'd answer that but everyone hates book spoilers
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Jan 2, 2021 21:56
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Erulisse posted:God, capture all the belter production, stop selling to inners and state your terms. But as he went straight to terrorism its either a veil for something else, a warning as you mentioned or just plain simple villain depiction. The UN/Mars have done absurd amounts of horrible, seriously hosed up, impossible to forget poo poo to the Belters and framing retaliation as Just Terrorism(TM) ain't it. Mass Death on this scale also absolutely ain't it, but given that their previous attempts to figure out any sense of liberation resulted in getting murdered at best taking extreme measures isn't just an understandable reaction, it's expected. Like, killing potentially billions of people and holding them hostage with a bioweapon is hosed up on a whole level of its own, but when historically a group like the Belters has held very little of the actual power while simultaneously being forced to beg for poo poo like water it's not a huge leap to see how the people following Marcos got where they did. Especially when the whole "If you don't like it just move somewhere else lol" refrain literally isn't an option. T-man posted:"if i were being exploited i would simply form a union" is some purestrain tviv politicsposting lol Was it the Expanse that has Space Pinkertons or am I mixing it up with some other sci fi media because if it is this series between that and Fred Johnson's backstory I think we have a pretty good picture of how the Inners react to Unionization, lmao
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Jan 3, 2021 03:04
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Pinkwater is a fusion of the Pinkertons and Blackwater, they've been mentioned as corporate hired muscle before. Also yeah Fred Johnson's origin story is "I murdered a bunch of Belters for the crime of going on strike, with full UN sanction" so lol at "just go on strike" as a useful political option
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Jan 3, 2021 03:09
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Sab Sabbington posted:The UN/Mars have done absurd amounts of horrible, seriously hosed up, impossible to forget poo poo to the Belters and framing retaliation as Just Terrorism(TM) ain't it. Mass Death on this scale also absolutely ain't it, but given that their previous attempts to figure out any sense of liberation resulted in getting murdered at best taking extreme measures isn't just an understandable reaction, it's expected. There's multiple pinkerton outfits. Star Helix is the most prominent one we see. There is also Royal Charter Energy but they're more like resource extraction mercs.
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Jan 3, 2021 08:48
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ASCASB all space cops are space bastards
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Jan 3, 2021 09:30
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T-man posted:ASCASB I don't know. Bastard, I get--it's a pejorative, but I think Space Bastard sounds kind of cool. I think I wouldn't mind being known as a Space Bastard.
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Jan 3, 2021 10:07
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piL posted:I don't know. Bastard, I get--it's a pejorative, but I think Space Bastard sounds kind of cool. I think I wouldn't mind being known as a Space Bastard. Space Bastard sounds like the name of a little-known anime that aired between 1979 and 1982 and is only available via fansub VHS to this day.
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Jan 3, 2021 10:12
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Lamebot posted:There's multiple pinkerton outfits. Star Helix is the most prominent one we see. There is also Royal Charter Energy but they're more like resource extraction mercs. I think RCE is just an energy company, but basically all massive corporations either have a direct line to mercs or, in the case of RCE, just happen to have their own security force anyway because so much of what they do involves needing that. So I wouldn’t say RCE is a security company so much as an energy corp with a security division. I believe Protogen was the same sort of setup in that respect.
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Jan 3, 2021 12:22
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Kazinsal posted:Space Bastard sounds like the name of a little-known anime that aired between 1979 and 1982 and is only available via fansub VHS to this day. If somebody could digitize that, I'd watch the gently caress out it.
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Jan 3, 2021 12:22
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Collateral posted:Like slaves, orgies and vomitariums? No fascism in ancient Rome, nope. If you leave an arena or stadium you’re a fascist?
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Jan 3, 2021 17:03
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I find Martian society to be pretty compelling and sympathetic in many ways. A society fully dedicated to a single, beautiful vision of creating a paradise from dust and rocks. Everybody works, everybody eats, everybody plays their part. The opening of the gates really did gently caress everybody who was a true believe in that vision, that's for sure. Both Mars and the belt, utterly hosed. Belter culture and the belt as a civilization is pretty inexorably doomed. Can't compete with 1,300 brand new planets that will be floating trade ships that can fly faster along with warships that can fight harder. But, you know, this kind of thing has happened throughout human history and ultimately that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
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Jan 3, 2021 17:56
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T-man posted:ASCASB
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Jan 3, 2021 18:39
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"My wife, Caty, wanted to start having babies, like all good Martians do..." was all I needed to hear out of Epstein's mouth to tell me what Martian culture is like.
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Jan 3, 2021 18:43
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How are u posted:I find Martian society to be pretty compelling and sympathetic in many ways. A society fully dedicated to a single, beautiful vision of creating a paradise from dust and rocks. Everybody works, everybody eats, everybody plays their part. arbiet macht frei you could say also i don't get this thread's obsession with belters being ill suited to life in the gates. high Gs do get you places faster, but they are riskier (oops our engine cut on on deceleration *splat*), require stronger and therefore more expensive ships, and aren't all that needed for most things. (not much call to transport live mayflies, and anything really time sensitive isn't gonna work with the weeks+ transit time even at high G). more to the point, would wellwallahs *want* to be in their high G ships, looking at bulkheads for months on end? especially if there's some belter going the right way you can pay to do it for you. there's also the question of space stations, ship building, and generally taking care of space based assets. plus with so many new asteroid belts, you can just mine your own water and air. belters are probably well suited to becoming Space Traders, and run the resupply of settlers. don't like wellwallahs geting in your biz? move to some other star system, hollow out your own moon, and have your polycule grow ever larger.
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Jan 3, 2021 21:00
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Putting a few extra structural elements into the spaceframe so your freighter can handle 1g instead of 0.3g is basically nothing compared to the cost of all the rest of the spaceship, and if your engine cuts out you don't smack into the destination any more than you would if your engine failed on a 0.3g burn, you just keep going on your old trajectory until you get it working again. Absolute worst case is you were on final approach and need to use the teakettle thrusters to nudge you off to the side a bit. And the benefits of being able to burn at 1g all day every day instead of 0.3g really add up when you're trying to move tens of billions of people and all the goods they produce/consume/trade across multiple solar systems. One single supply run having a few weeks of travel time knocked off it isn't huge, but multiply that by thousands of ships over decades and the Earther corporations would be idiots not to take the free speed upgrade and get all their cargo where it's going in like half the time. There's an infinite bottomless pool of manpower that can stand up to 1g, and they're all jonesing to get out beyond the gates anyways, finding Earther crews that can move more stuff in less time shouldn't be hard and it's good for the profit margins. The bottleneck on it is really how many new spaceships can the shipyards churn out, and yeah sure there's some room for Belters there maintaining and working in space infrastructure, but it's not going to support the entire population and even if it could there's plenty of Belters who didn't get a fancy Inya engineering degree or vac welding certification or whatever and are still out in the cold. Not everyone wants to be "one of the good ones" and be some Inya's pet engineer, even Sakai who Bull and Holden so helpfully pointed out was made comfortable by the Earthers and their shipyards just hates them all the more for it. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 3, 2021 |
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Jan 3, 2021 21:12
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Belters are like 100% of the pirates we've seen, they clearly have no issues with space chases, et They also have a huge advantage in that they still own the navoo which is now a heavily armed space station that is a gateway to the 1300 planets
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Jan 3, 2021 21:27
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In combat you can strap down in your acceleration couch and hit the juice to deal with the hard burns for a little while, but you can't cruise along juiced up and strapped in for months on end if you're doing a supply run out to the colonies. The payroll and rations savings alone from having your Earther freighter crew get there and back in half the time of a Belter crew is probably worth it to the accountants running the major shipping lines, without even bringing in possible business advantages from faster delivery etc.
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Jan 3, 2021 21:32
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Do Earth ships even normally do 1G constant burns? Seems like .3G is pretty normal cruising speed for everyone... Earth isn't explicitly given a strategic mobility advantage vs. Mars when talking about their navies... perhaps there's a fuel efficiency sweet spot.
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Jan 3, 2021 21:48
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I got bored and did some math (well, I used a calculator that did the math for me), a ~80 AU round trip out to a colony and back (~20 from the Inner Sol System to the Sol Ring, presumably another ~20-ish from the Sol-ish colony system's ring to the Sol-ish colony system's inner system, and back again) can be done in literally half the time burning at 1g instead of 0.3g Getting your poo poo weeks earlier is probably worth paying the extra shipping fee, and even if it isn't saving a month of rations and payroll and maintenance cycle on every freighter on every trip multiplied over hundreds of freighters and trips has got to be making the accountants at Mao-Kwikowski Mercantile nut all over their spreadsheets. The speed benefits aren't a huge difference when humanity is constrained to cargo routes that are generally less than 10 AU long round-trip (Inner System to Jupiter and back) so there wasn't much need with the way things were, but when you scale up to dozens of AU across multiple systems the difference really shows. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 3, 2021 |
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Jan 3, 2021 21:50
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In the books Earthers burn at 1g, Mars at ~.5g and Belters at .3g and its more clear that Belters can't handle space chases or pursuits. Alex even remarks on this during the Razorback chase
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Jan 3, 2021 22:00
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From book two:quote:As a junior lieutenant Holden had spent days in scout ships so small that you literally could not bend over to scratch your feet. He’d climbed around between the inner and outer hulls of warships. He’d once been confined to his crash couch for twenty-one days during a fast-burn trip from Luna to Saturn. He never had nightmares of being crushed or being buried alive.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:04
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Is there any particular explanation for the lack of automated ships? Given the power and software capabilities of the computers displayed in the series, it would make sense that drone ships would be heavily utilized given the tremendous advantages offered by removing humans from the equation.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:10
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Wheeee posted:Is there any particular explanation for the lack of automated ships? Pirates I would guess. A crew would be more discerning on how/when to act against a priate crew while an AI system would be easy pickings. Plus I am sure there are a lot of other bureaucratic reasons as well. Computers are probably bad at paperwork/bribes.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:13
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Light lag on control inputs and needing squishy meat crew on-site to fix the things that break maybe? The real reason is the authors wanted the books/show to be about humans in space instead of robots in space though, they said that pretty explicitly somewhere to nerds asking why hundreds of millions of Belters even exist to begin with when robot miners with a tiny handful of human minders/technicians would make more sense given the shown computer technology.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:14
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swickles posted:Pirates I would guess. A crew would be more discerning on how/when to act against a priate crew while an AI system would be easy pickings. So give them AI controlled gunship escorts. Hell, why do you even need people on these ships anyway? A cargo container ship could be built to burn at a constant, I dunno, 5g burn and no human crewed pirate fleet is going to catch that. Which is probably why they don’t have fully automated AI controlled ships because then you get into that kind of sci-fi setting. E: not related to this topic but how realistic are the space battles we see in the show? Is “target locking” an actual thing? Would 2 ships in combat even get into visual range of each other if missiles exist? For target lock, I feel like every episode up to the current one made it seem like once you’ve been target locked you’re 100% dead because there’s no escape (if you can’t shoot down the missiles). It felt weird that in this episode the Razorback was target locked and they just somehow escaped. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 3, 2021 |
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Jan 3, 2021 22:23
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If your robot freighter burning at 5g pings off a micrometeroid or has a coolant leak that scrams the reactor or whatever else usually goes wrong and breaks in space you're kinda hosed and out a super expensive robot freighter though. A human crew can just put on a spacesuit and go fix whatever broke, a robot ship is mostly hosed, especially if the thing that broke is the communications system or the computer.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:28
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Why hasn't humanity already disassembled Mercury with Von Neumann machines for a dyson swarm of hematite mirrors?  
Lamebot fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 3, 2021 |
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Jan 3, 2021 22:30
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Wheeee posted:Is there any particular explanation for the lack of automated ships? According to Ty, robots are boring, stories are about people. So, limited automation.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:30
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GigaPeon posted:If you leave an arena or stadium you’re a fascist? Maybe if it's for NASCAR?
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Jan 3, 2021 22:35
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Boris Galerkin posted:E: not related to this topic but how realistic are the space battles we see in the show? Is “target locking” an actual thing? Would 2 ships in combat even get into visual range of each other if missiles exist? Missiles are mostly negated by an effective PD network I think, a single ship's PD cannons can get overwhelmed if you jump it alone but a full fleet with all the PD computers talking to each other and coordinating fire can shoot down an arbitrarily large number of missiles. That's why they put railguns on the capital ships, you skirmish with missiles and maybe get a few lucky hits in, but to really destroy an evenly matched enemy fleet in a reasonable amount of time you need to get in railgun range and start punching holes in their PD network with the big guns. If you have a 10:1 numerical advantage or something you can just drown the other guy under more missiles than their PD can handle but generally torpedoes are expensive and PDC rounds are cheap so the math comes out terrible. The Razorback didn't manage to escape, the torpedo was a quarter of a second from flying up their tailpipe when Alex dumped the reactor core and the torpedo exploded when it hit the big cloud of plasma. You can dodge one single torpedo like that if you time it just right, but the downside is it leaves you floating dead in space with no power, which isn't useful for warships. Alex is gambling on them thinking the Razorback is a bunch of space junk now, if they put another torpedo into the "wreck" just to be sure he and Bobby are incredibly dead.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:36
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Also, even at a 5g burn, you still jave to slow down (presumably at a 5g decel), its on the slow down that pirates would hit. But also yeah at those sustained g burns, space dust becomes a warhead. These ships seem to require a lot of maintenance.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:37
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Crazycryodude posted:The Razorback didn't manage to escape, the torpedo was a quarter of a second from flying up their tailpipe when Alex dumped the reactor core and the torpedo exploded when it hit the big cloud of plasma. You can dodge one single torpedo like that if you time it just right, but the downside is it leaves you floating dead in space with no power, which isn't useful for warships. Alex is gambling on them thinking the Razorback is a bunch of space junk now, if they put another torpedo into the "wreck" just to be sure he and Bobby are incredibly dead. On the episode 5 podcast, Ty is saying that you can restart the reactor, so I don't think it's meant to be so much of a death sentence. But the close scrape where the explosion clips the corner of the ship certainly doesn't make things any easier.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:48
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Wheeee posted:Is there any particular explanation for the lack of automated ships? Why, is there a shortage of humans?
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Jan 3, 2021 22:51
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BrotherJayne posted:Why, is there a shortage of humans? They're the weakest part of a ship, limiting its acceleration and manoeuvring as well as requiring a bunch of additional systems and resources. It's a plot device to have humans in all the ships, but in reality removing them would be a pretty high priority.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:57
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404notfound posted:On the episode 5 podcast, Ty is saying that you can restart the reactor, so I don't think it's meant to be so much of a death sentence. But the close scrape where the explosion clips the corner of the ship certainly doesn't make things any easier. You can turn it back on but that takes time and probably is super obvious to people watching, if there's more than one torpedo coming at you all that dumping the core does is ensure you die to the second one before you can power up again. Luckily for our heroes it seems they only had the one torpedo launched at them, I guess the Free Navy/Martian arms dealers/whoever want to save ammo? Or the second torpedo is gonna annihilate the Razorback in the first 20 seconds of next episode, which would be a hilarious way to get rid of Alex. Bobby would go down too though 
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Jan 3, 2021 22:57
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Crazycryodude posted:If your robot freighter burning at 5g pings off a micrometeroid or has a coolant leak that scrams the reactor or whatever else usually goes wrong and breaks in space you're kinda hosed and out a super expensive robot freighter though. A human crew can just put on a spacesuit and go fix whatever broke, a robot ship is mostly hosed, especially if the thing that broke is the communications system or the computer. i mean, unless it pings the air, water, or skulls of your human crew, in which case you're out an even more expensive ship, air, water, and workers. :v putting in a few independent maintenance spiderbots makes more sense than canned monkeys we're gonna hafta automate most space tasks if we're ever getting off this rock, but it will unfortunately be bad for storytelling if we do.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:58
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