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In addition to my job
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Jan 12, 2021 20:17
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N. Senada posted:In addition to my job Ok this helps a bit. The hit on take home isn't QUITE that bad since you don't need to give yourself health insurance or take money out for retirement, nor will you need a buffer for stretches of no work. BUT, you will pay more taxes (though you can incorporate into an S-Corp to pay yourself a salary, but this can be a big pain in the rear end). I would also imagine at the point where this would make any money would also be the point where it'd be impossible to do alongside a regular job. Is your intention to build something long term with this, or do something good for the community? If it's the latter I'd probably look into doing a more involved volunteer thing, I don't think the small amount of money will be worth the effort. If it's the former you probably need to rethink this because I think you'll sink yourself before it can get on its feet.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:45
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Yeah you should just do it on a volunteer basis. edit: at min you would have to handle business development, have some hardware set up, be able to successfully handle and process sensitive data and materials and keep it separate from your other poo poo, and invoice and receive payment. that's not trivial.
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Jan 13, 2021 03:20
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This is good advice, I’ll reassess what I’m thinking through and probably narrow my focus
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Jan 13, 2021 04:14
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Is it true to become a software developer, you can just take a programming class and get certified and get make decent money right away or is it best to get a full degree in computer science?
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Jan 17, 2021 23:30
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You basically need a portfolio of projects you’ve done that will prove to your employer what you’re capable of. I think the general consensus is having degree, or a certification from somewhere is not taken into consideration nearly as much as the quality of your creations.
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Jan 18, 2021 00:03
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punk rebel ecks posted:Is it true to become a software developer, you can just take a programming class and get certified and get make decent money right away or is it best to get a full degree in computer science? Take a look at the newbie programming thread. It's come up a few times before and I've written about it there, so if you search for my posts you can find the discussion.
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Jan 18, 2021 00:09
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RCarr posted:You basically need a portfolio of projects you’ve done that will prove to your employer what you’re capable of. I think the general consensus is having degree, or a certification from somewhere is not taken into consideration nearly as much as the quality of your creations. What type of "creations" are you talking about here? ultrafilter posted:Take a look at the newbie programming thread. It's come up a few times before and I've written about it there, so if you search for my posts you can find the discussion. So I can just get certified for free on CourseEra?
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Jan 18, 2021 01:18
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Certifications basically don't matter for software development, most of the time. The only time people even really look at them is if they're writing a statement of work for some big bureaucratic contracting assignment (think government here) and want an "objective" standard for the people working on the project. If you can put together some working software - a web or mobile app are probably your best bets - and study up on technical interview questions, then you can probably find a job. You'll need to put out hundreds of resumes and you'll get rejected a lot before you strike gold, but if you're in an area with a functioning tech job market, it's possible. Once you've got the first software dev job on your resume, job hopping becomes a whole lot easier. You can get to this point with self-study, but it takes a lot of time, dedication, and willingness to do more than running through a single set of Coursera courses. A computer science education goes over a lot of highly theoretical background information, that can be handy to bust out when you're facing super tricky problems, but often isn't relevant in day-to-day software development work. Fun fact: most of what you'll learn at the BS/BA level predates electronic computers. Good CS programs also include some semi-practical software development courses, and are connected to recruiting departments at major employers that will give you an easier path to entry-level positions. The "recruiters won't stop calling me with offers for mid six figgies straight out of college" opportunities are reserved for a few ultra-high-end institutions like Stanford and MIT, and aren't actually typical for anyone else, but a BS student with decent grades from an average state school can probably find a high-five-figure entry level job after handing out a dozen resumes and doing a couple of interviews.
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Jan 18, 2021 01:34
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I know I've written about this in a thread somewhere before, but it may not be the newbie thread, or maybe I'm not using the right search term in my posts. So here's the latest but probably not greatest iteration: There isn't really a single career of programming. There are a few ways you can break it down, but the simplest way to look at it is that there are two types of jobs: coders and software engineers. That's maybe not the best terminology, but it's close enough. As a coder, your job is to write small programs that do something for a business. For that sort of job, you really just need to be able to program. You can pick it up through a traditional college class, an online class, or just through self-study. As long as you can show off something that you've built, you'll get a job somewhere, but it's probably not going to be with a prestigious company or for a lot of money. The demands of this career path are pretty light, the pay is decent if not amazing, and you'll have your choice of jobs as long as you're in a reasonably-sized metropolitan area. As a software engineer, on the other hand, you're contributing to large systems. Programming gets different as you scale up, and the material that you learn in a computer science degree actually turns out to be fairly important as you start dealing with sufficiently large systems. Most jobs in this career path aren't with FAANG+ places, but they still tend to pay better than coder positions. The hours can be long, particularly early on, but once you've established yourself (which generally takes about five years), it can be more reasonable. There's a lot of pressure to stay current, though, and these jobs are a little fewer and further between unless you're in one of the primary markets (NYC, Seattle, SF and environs). You can start working as a coder and jump over to a software engineering position later, but most people get comfortable and don't do that. If that would bother you, you may not want to try that out, but if you're fine with just being comfortable, it's definitely worth a try. Space Gopher posted:Fun fact: most of what you'll learn at the BS/BA level predates electronic computers. This isn't true at any university that I'm familiar with.
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Jan 18, 2021 01:51
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Some good stuff, but "hundreds of application rejections" put me off. Basically, I'm in my early 30's and have a Bachelor's degree in Psychology which has been all but worthless. I want a career change and would like to be able to learn programming and get a job in the field in two to three years that pays at least $60,000. Is that realistic? I live in Portland, Oregon so I think there should be enough jobs?
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Jan 18, 2021 03:40
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ultrafilter posted:This isn't true at any university that I'm familiar with. Sorry, that was probably unclear - in the sentence you quoted I meant to specifically talk about the theoretical foundations stuff. Analysis of recurrence relations, Big-O/Theta/Omega analysis of worst/average/best-case algorithm runtime, finite state machines, Turing machines, lambda calculus, and so forth. The practical side of things, including specific algorithms, data structures, and actual software development, is usually taught separately. Most schools don't teach the state of the art, but it'll be a few years old rather than theoretical foundations established in the 1930s by Church, Turing, and friends before the field was thrust into applied work breaking Nazi codes. punk rebel ecks posted:Some good stuff, but "hundreds of application rejections" put me off. Yes, it's realistic. The first step would be to pick up some small-scale projects or tutorials and see how you feel about them. You're going to have to make peace with sending out tons of applications and getting ghosted or rejected a bunch, though. For anyone without formal credentials or a super friendly recruiter connection, it'll just be part of the game.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:55
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punk rebel ecks posted:Some good stuff, but "hundreds of application rejections" put me off. I want to be clear. It's realistic but very very hard. Many many people wash out. I think it's good to try it, but if you can't build sample applications or website and do intermediate coding challenges you will have a rough time. And getting that first job is tough, lots of resumes sent out, perhaps hundreds. That said, I've hired guys who were drivers, bartenders, healthcare workers (in their 30s!) into very good jobs and started them on career paths where they'll make lots of money but each of them had some kind of passion for developing and wetter able to blossom that. If you don't have that out will be a very hard road. I don't say this to discourage, you should try and see if you can progress but it's not just "do some courses and then get a job". It's really hard, that's why there's demand.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:03
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Space Gopher posted:Sorry, that was probably unclear - in the sentence you quoted I meant to specifically talk about the theoretical foundations stuff. Analysis of recurrence relations, Big-O/Theta/Omega analysis of worst/average/best-case algorithm runtime, finite state machines, Turing machines, lambda calculus, and so forth. You're off by a few decades on some of that, but I suspect you also think that the material is outdated simply by virtue of not being really new. That's maybe true about specific technologies, but it really doesn't apply to the fundamental concepts of computing. Off the top of my head, in machine learning right now everyone's spending a lot of time thinking about gradient descent, and that predates the American civil war. Lockback posted:I want to be clear. It's realistic but very very hard. Many many people wash out. I think it's good to try it, but if you can't build sample applications or website and do intermediate coding challenges you will have a rough time. And getting that first job is tough, lots of resumes sent out, perhaps hundreds. This is the right way to look at it. Try it out and see if you think it's worth sticking with. If not, worst case you've got some new knowledge about what's not for you. The good news is that after you've been in the field for a couple years, finding your next job becomes much easier.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:12
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Okay. Thanks for the chaser everyone. Where would be the best place to start?
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Jan 18, 2021 04:31
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punk rebel ecks posted:Okay. I'd suggest python to start. Udemy, coursera, things like that. Learn some basics, code a whole bunch, learn what you figured out you don't know, code a bunch, repeat. Then do JavaScript. Get pissed off that is much harder for no good reason. Do some Java or c# or Kotlin or something to push some boundaries. You get that far you know if it's time to take 6 months to get a boot camp certificate or to take what you know and try to find a job. Developers will tell you to avoid support and QA jobs, but they're still pretty good and I know some good QA guys who have real nice boats so don't scoff. Agree strongly with the above poster, it's a lot of work to get rolling and you might have to take a lovely job but it gets better.
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Jan 18, 2021 06:57
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If there is so much demand, why is it so difficult to find a job? EDIT - Looking at indeed a lot of postings are saying "Bachelor's preferred". Lockback posted:I'd suggest python to start. Udemy, coursera, things like that. Learn some basics, code a whole bunch, learn what you figured out you don't know, code a bunch, repeat. Then do JavaScript. Get pissed off that is much harder for no good reason. Do some Java or c# or Kotlin or something to push some boundaries. You get that far you know if it's time to take 6 months to get a boot camp certificate or to take what you know and try to find a job So I can be ready (assuming I am cut out for it) in as little as 6 months? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 12:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:If there is so much demand, why is it so difficult to find a job? quote:So I can be ready (assuming I am cut out for it) in as little as 6 months?
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Jan 18, 2021 13:14
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Love Stole the Day posted:Because the way the industry decides whether to hire people isn't very good, but it's the best way they know how. "Sherpa"?
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Jan 18, 2021 13:50
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Algorithms seem like a silly way to test people. I'm not a programmer yet, well I freelance and teach myself. Hoping to get a real job eventually but don't think lol ever be able to pass a algorithm test
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Jan 18, 2021 14:30
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punk rebel ecks posted:"Sherpa"? Programming tutorials, books, courses, etc never tell you what to do after you've finished going through their material, and they don't explain where the stuff they're teaching you fits into the big picture. So it will be very easy to get lost or waste those 6 months without a sherpa of some kind.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:39
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I wish I had one to be honest. I've been self teaching for like two years now. Is there a good place to hire or get one? Also yeah alot of tutorials and such seem to miss the final steps of putting all that logic together or really getting above the surface level. Take a look at my last two months of posts in cavern of cobol to watch me in real time learn a technology stack and sql because all the tutorials just stay on a very basic level
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Jan 18, 2021 14:43
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Empress Brosephine posted:I wish I had one to be honest. I've been self teaching for like two years now. Is there a good place to hire or get one? That does sound like a good business opportunity, yeah. On paper, that sounds like what schools and boot camps should be for, doesn't it? I imagine they're all too expensive, though. Is Lambda School still a thing? Apart from that, I guess that's where a community has to fill the gap with charity work.
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Jan 18, 2021 15:43
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punk rebel ecks posted:If there is so much demand, why is it so difficult to find a job? Because there are a lot of lovely "entry" level people who don't know what they're doing, and (as LStD says) the industry isn't that great at filtering in a more efficient way. Hiring a bad developer isn't just a waste, it's a net negative on the team. That's why after a couple years and some real experience is gets much easier because you have some proof that you aren't a lump of wasted money (in the employers eyes). 6 months would probably make you a wunderkind but in 6 months you should have an idea if you're good enough to consider quitting your job to pay for a bootcamp. Because...: Empress Brosephine posted:I wish I had one to be honest. I've been self teaching for like two years now. Is there a good place to hire or get one? Bootcamps are probably the most realistic (though probably not ideal) option for this. There are good ones and not good ones, and you will only get what you put in. I've interviewed lots of people who just copied off their buddy in a bootcamp and that just means they wasted a bunch of time and money. But it's a good way to put stuff together, learn some things, and get a piece of paper that says you did a thing. You can do all this without a bootcamp or a sherpa, but it's just not a recipe for success. Again, as LStD (Who I used to work with and is the single best technology instructor I have ever met) says you'll be missing a lot of very important pieces that will be very obvious to employers.
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Jan 18, 2021 15:52
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Love Stole the Day posted:That does sound like a good business opportunity, yeah. On paper, that sounds like what schools and boot camps should be for, doesn't it? I imagine they're all too expensive, though. Is Lambda School still a thing? I feel like I've seen a site for mentors before, kind of like italki for language learning. I think it'd be a good idea even just to have a coach to say "work on this, work on that".
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Jan 18, 2021 17:11
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Empress Brosephine posted:I feel like I've seen a site for mentors before, kind of like italki for language learning. I think it'd be a good idea even just to have a coach to say "work on this, work on that". I imagine if you post in the Newbie thread in CoC saying "here's what I know already, I want to get a job doing this, what should I learn next?" they'd probably point you in the several good directions. Then the forum can be your guide!
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Jan 18, 2021 17:17
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Oh yeah I always use that thread. I love CoC
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Jan 18, 2021 17:30
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Love Stole the Day posted:I imagine if you post in the Newbie thread in CoC saying "here's what I know already, I want to get a job doing this, what should I learn next?" they'd probably point you in the several good directions. Then the forum can be your guide! This is good advice.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:31
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Okay. So my plan so far is to take a Python class at CourseEra during the seven day free trial period and see how I enjoy it. I will then come back here with more questions. That said, should I look into getting a Computer Science degree at all? The University near me offers a postbaccalaureate so I can get a full fledged degree in like two years and not have to limit the amount of careers I apply to right away.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:34
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punk rebel ecks posted:Okay. 1) FYI, if you're not willing to invest beyond free trials you aren't going to succeed. Trying some different things out is fine, but you will absolutely need to shell out for real instruction and support on this. Again, it is not easy. 2) A CS postbaccalaureate is another good idea! Again, you will probably need to do things outside this classroom (A degree does not shortcut you from the entry-level grind, lots of people with degrees are also useless) but this will give you a more solid foundation. Again, I would expect anyone, degree or no, to apply with a reasonable github of applications they've built and be able to intelligently speak to them. I don't think we'll be able to tell you what the best path is for you though, only you can really answer that. Edit: Woof, that's $30k though. Lockback fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 17:51
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Definitely do not jump into a $30K degree before you've spent at least a few months coding, to see if you actually like it or not. Also yes, spend money on real courses. I think a good middle ground between free and 6-month bootcamp is a site like https://egghead.io/. They have a lot of free content, but their paid content is super high quality, with transcripts and videos broken into digestible chunks. Also, I highly recommend Ramit Sethi's courses, specifically https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/products/dream-job/opt-in/, which I have paid for. It helps give you a lot of ideas that help avoid the "submit 200 resumes and hope you don't get 200 rejections". While I have gone down the path of shotgun resume submission in the past, it's never landed me a good job. And I've hopped jobs on average of once every couple years for the past 10 years. In short, start talking to people at companies you want to work for. Ask them what would be the best route to get a job there. Not only will that give you good advice, it will establish a connection with someone at the company. As others have mentioned, it's nearly impossible to know what the "right" set of tools you should learn, because there are so many. So instead focus on finding the right company and figure out what they would want. Considering your experience level, Google probably isn't the right company, but there are probably 100s of possible options within the Portland area. EDIT: Also also, I didn't see anyone else say this, but apologies if they did: you should focus on building projects that can be part of your portfolio. I've been a hiring manager, or at least an interviewer at all of my jobs and for people with minimal work experience, and even those with some, their "portfolio" is usually the number one thing I look at. What is the most recent project they have worked on, how does the code look, and how confidently can they talk about the programming principles involved with building, maintaining, and scaling it. So go build a chatbot or a machine learning algorithm or a BitCoin price tracker, or whatever it is. Just building something interesting with whatever languages you decide to learn and make that your resume. sim fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 18:48
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Lockback posted:1) FYI, if you're not willing to invest beyond free trials you aren't going to succeed. Trying some different things out is fine, but you will absolutely need to shell out for real instruction and support on this. Again, it is not easy. This is just a starting period. If I feel it's for me I will absolutely go further than a free trial. It's to "dip my toes in it". Lockback posted:2) A CS postbaccalaureate is another good idea! Again, you will probably need to do things outside this classroom (A degree does not shortcut you from the entry-level grind, lots of people with degrees are also useless) but this will give you a more solid foundation. Again, I would expect anyone, degree or no, to apply with a reasonable github of applications they've built and be able to intelligently speak to them. I don't think we'll be able to tell you what the best path is for you though, only you can really answer that. Sounds good. I'm leaning toward taking two classes a semester and wrapping up in a bit less than two years. I will be sure to develop applications and websites. I'll probably due some freelance work. Lockback posted:Edit: Woof, that's $30k though. With aid it's less than $15,000.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:31
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I'm sure replies to this are going to be  but taking a CourseEra and so far coding in Python is very fun.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:24
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I’m in the same place; not really for a career but I started dicking around with the edX CS50 course and have been really enjoying it. It’s possible though that anything is fun until you have to do it for a living.
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Jan 19, 2021 15:58
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Python is pretty fun to screw around with even if you do it for a living. But it'll get more challenging as you get past the "screwing around" stage, and other languages have more frustrations (and you probably need to branch to out though there are a bunch of Python jobs depending on your area). Building a non-trivial web app with Flask is a good target for Python.
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Jan 19, 2021 16:15
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I really think I'm going to get a bachelor's degree in computer science. I see it as a preferred, if not a requirement, in most job listings and I don't want to be hamstrung in the application process. Financial aid should pay for half and I have more than the $15,000 left saved up. Even then so a $70 a month student loan bill to add to my existing $200 one isn't going to break me.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:07
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I would argue that it's not so much that coding or any particular language stops being fun; it's more the work environment around it that ruins the fun. Deadlines, bad managers, etc. Certain aspects of coding can become boring if you do it long enough. I've been doing it for 10 years and I find certain things (like CSS) really uninviting, but working out some logic puzzle with code is still fun.punk rebel ecks posted:I really think I'm going to get a bachelor's degree in computer science. I see it as a preferred, if not a requirement, in most job listings and I don't want to be hamstrung in the application process. As a college dropout, I'm living proof that it's definitely not a requirement. But I think going to college for a specific reason, with a specific goal in mind, is totally worth it and I doubt you'll regret it, as long as you stay in programming long enough to pay back your loans.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:20
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punk rebel ecks posted:I really think I'm going to get a bachelor's degree in computer science. I see it as a preferred, if not a requirement, in most job listings and I don't want to be hamstrung in the application process. I think you're misreading or just looking at misleading postings, as many people in the industry in this thread will tell you a CS degree isn't going to open a ton of doors, especially if you already have a bachelors. HOWEVER: sim posted:But I think going to college for a specific reason, with a specific goal in mind, is totally worth it and I doubt you'll regret it, as long as you stay in programming long enough to pay back your loans. I do agree with this. I do have a CS degree (although most people I hire do not) and I think it gets you a foundation that is otherwise hard to build. If you are otherwise an academic minded person, you'll get a lot out of it. A dual Psych/CS degree is also a nice start into UX design, if that's a thing you're into. Always nice to have options regardless.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:44
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Yeah, I think getting a degree would be a nice way to flesh things out and build myself a foundation. However, I wonder if the cost and time could be spent better by just spending like $1,500 on various certificates and camps rather than spending $15,000 on a full fleged degree. A degree might not be worth much for entry level but maybe it would be an advantage for mid-level? In terms of a job, UX Design sounds pretty fun. But I want to also go to where the job market is strongest, which I assume is mobile app development.
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Jan 19, 2021 19:56
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punk rebel ecks posted:Yeah, I think getting a degree would be a nice way to flesh things out and build myself a foundation. Don't even bother with certifications unless you're specifically targeting DevOps for AWS/MS stuff. Nobody cares about certifications otherwise. But yes, I absolutely think spending money on camps and actually building something is a much more efficient way to get a programing job. You can always get the degree later if you decide it will help. But from my experience, it's not necessary at all, especially since you already have a bachelors degree so you can clear the bar in every job requirement. Interviews will focus on your actual knowledge of how to build, maintain, and scale applications. What you learned in college, even in Computer Science, is going to be quickly outdated. Like others have mentioned, it's great for foundational knowledge, but unless you're targeting FAANG size companies, you're probably better off showing that you can build something real than trying to tout your knowledge of theoretical algorithms.
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Jan 19, 2021 20:06
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