|
commando in tophat posted:Well, Sumerians used base 60 and it did gently caress all to help them yeah but my mutants will have 100 fingers 
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 22:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
I'm still laughing at the "Octa" poo poo. Has there ever been a more elaborate rendition of the bargaining stage of grief? "If reality were totally different, could Chris Roberts make Star Citizen then? He didn't fail, existence failed. In an alternate reality, Star Citizen would be the BDSSE."
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 22:42
|
|
|
Taintrunner posted:New space game everspace 2 now available in early access, gonna check it out This one is looking really cool, going to check it out this week for sure
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
https://i.imgur.com/qtLrDxo.mp4
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 22:47
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:In the old games I was referring to many objects weren't object in the map either - they were sprites. So you flew around and an enemy ship sprite would just appear - the system didn't store its position because it wasn't there. It just popped up and you shot at it, if you hit it and it blew up you'd get points. Kinda like how the early Final Fantasy games would suddenly suck you from the overworld map into a fight. Yeah that's the "cheap" way to do it but we still use it for things like rain in some games.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 22:50
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:I agree. I'm on the same side, friend. Yeah, but my point is that extending out CryEngine isn't "writing inefficient code that modern beefy pcs can let you get away with" which is what you were saying. Extending out CryEngine isn't game development. They haven't even started making the game SC is supposed to be. The problem has nothing to do with performance or modern CPU power. Its just lack of design. You see what I mean?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:04
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Why don't we make the 1 dollar bill the million dollar bill and then we'd all be millionaires? Ahhh the Zimbabwe Solution!
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:05
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:x4 uses a sort of layered simulation where events near the player are run at high fidelity but events far away our outside the current area are updated less frequently and in less detail. Most obviously, actual physics are only calculated relatively near the player or the camera, and certain static objects such asteroids literally do not even exist unless the player is nearby. Instead they are abstracted into fields which NPCs can interact with at low fidelity without having to actually engage in high-fidelity mining behavior. X4 sounds like a poo poo tier low-fidelity game, everything should be physicalized and fully rendered at all times because  CIG definitely talked up something like this in years past. Originally I think they were planning on a big sprawling economy simulation where like at least 1 out of every 10 agents would actually exist in the game and go about their work in high fidelity. So you could follow an NPC mining ship to an NPC run refinery and then follow the refined metal to an NPC run shipyard that was building an 890J. But of course this is all out of the reach of company that is blindly loving around in CryEngine 3 and can't even have random NPC traffic around its giant city planet after 9 years. So, its all been severely walked back to this new "Quanta" system or whatever, that boils down to CIG making some prices fluctuate randomly but claiming that its the result of some super complex background simulation. The Citizens have internalized all of this, memory-holing all of the original promises of no-compromises fidelity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:I'll try to explain. The really old poo poo (I'm talking late 70s early 80s) that did the "first person space game" had no map at all. None. It rendered a black screen and some dots, those were stars. The game kept track of coordinates, let's say you start at 0,0,0. Now you push your joystick forward for a while. While the computer detects input, it moves the little white dots to make it look like you're moving, but you're not. The game increases say the first value - you are at 1,0,0, then 2,0,0, then 3,0,0. You turn right and go forward more. 3,1,0 - 3,2,0 - 3,3,0 - and so on. The ONLY thing happening is a variable changing. You're not "moving" because there's no map. You're just changing numbers invisibly in RAM. You're not even stationary, because there's no map to be stationary in. You're looking at what amounts to a 2D animated screensaver. But the little stars moving creates the visual illusion of moving through space. I understand what Elite is, I've played it dude. But if you would go back and read through my previous reply to you, that isn't "there is no map". There is still a map. Having black space doesn't mean there isn't a map. Scruffpuff posted:You're not "moving" because there's no map. Friend, there is never a map. Videogames are all code on a computer. Its all just bits flipping. You're never actually moving. Scruffpuff posted:Modern game engines actually work like you said - yes there are coordinates, but the map itself is a parent in which everything else is placed. When you move around the map, your coordinates change, and the rendering engine changes what you see based on the coordinates of every object on that map. That's an enormous amount of data, but it's basically a very advanced extrapolation of what I described above. The difference would maybe be that in the old games, you could just lean something against the joystick and leave it running for so long you could eventually overflow the coordinate system and crash the game, or if they coded it for that, "wrap-around" the coordinate system so you suddenly hopped to the opposite "side" of the galaxy. If its a very advanced extrapolation doesn't that mean there isn't a "map" after all? They're the same thing... Scruffpuff posted:Today there's more focus on what to do when a player bumps into the edge of the map - is there something blocking you? Do you just get stopped? Does it let you fly forever but nothing is ever rendered as you zoom into blackness? How does adding code that says "stop the player if they get to the edge of our space system" means you go from "not having a map" to "having a map" ? Just because the game doesn't render moving objects doesn't mean it fundamentally "lacks a map". Games are just algorithms that look at data. If you have data, you have a map. There's a lot of different ways for the algorithms to work and lots of different things they can do, but... I could write a program that would let you play Elite with smooth rendering of movement using the same game data as the original Elite. Does that mean there's a "map" now? Where did it come from? I'm still using the same game data, I just add more logic to how it renders. You see my point? Scruffpuff posted:An effective illusion of moving around a map but there's literally no map to build, render, or consider in any way, shape, or form. The only thing the PC had to do was compare 2 sets of numbers and then show you a sprite. This doesn't really mean as much as you think. If that's an "illusion of moving around a map", then that's how every single video game works. Its always an illusion. There's never a "map" really. Do you move around a "map" in wolfenstein 3D? There's no actual 3D space at all. Its a 2D plane of data, with the 3D view interpolated from it using a fixed algorithm. Does that mean there's a map, or no map? Comparing 2 sets of numbers is how all kinds of things get done. Sphere collisions can be done with just comparing two sets of numbers. You can come up with all kinds of algorithms that do things with that information. There's no hard bright-line of "map" versus "no map" like you're saying. Some games do more with rendering than others. That's all. Elite is very lightweight on rendering. But I promise you, that you "move around the map" in Elite exactly as you do in Wolf3D or Quake. Its all just an X,Y,Z storing where the player is, and then logic to play off that. Elite's "map" has a lot less stuff in it, and it doesn't do as much to render it, but it still has game data. All a game is, is data and a variable for player state and a loop which changes things based on it. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jan 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
NumptyScrub posted:Infidelity. No not that kind! The kind where you use aggressive distance culling, simplify everything you can possibly simplify, making the bare minimum calculations required to make it look a bit realistic. Are there even any mines in star citizen yet? I know they sold a minelayer ship at that special dinner, but that was just another feature at tier -1 (or is it -8??? -64??)
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:10
|
|
|
L. Ron Hoover posted:Are there even any mines in star citizen yet? I know they sold a minelayer ship at that special dinner, but that was just another feature at tier -1 (or is it -8??? -64??) There have always been mines in star citizen No
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:14
|
|
|
Pretty sure that if the Sumerians were in charge of the mine laying multivitamin fuelled diner, there would have been enough potatoes for everyone. Base sixty and all that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:15
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:In the old games I was referring to many objects weren't object in the map either - they were sprites. So you flew around and an enemy ship sprite would just appear - the system didn't store its position because it wasn't there. It just popped up and you shot at it, if you hit it and it blew up you'd get points. Kinda like how the early Final Fantasy games would suddenly suck you from the overworld map into a fight. For it to pop up, the position has to exist somewhere. A sprite is simpler than a model, but its still a THING. You can't have a thing without code putting it there. Definitely there's been lots of huge advancements in computer graphics and videogame rendering. Going from sprites in Doom to models in Quake is a HUGE leap. But... its not going from "no map" to "map". That's not how videogames work. Its just building an ever-increasing algorithm of visual detail. Like I was discussing earlier, things could be generated procedurally instead of stored as a fixed game data, sure. Does that mean No Man's Sky "doesn't have a map" ? Elite has more of a "map" than NMS because there's co-ordinates stored on the disk. With NMS there's only a seed and an algorithm. But even with NMS... there's still a "map" it just only exists in RAM temporarily as the game is running, rather than being saved to disk and read. Or there never is a map, it depends upon how you define "map". E: The things you're saying about Elite and Star Raiders aren't wrong, but the language you're using is confusing at best, and the extrapolations you're making about how other games work are a little confused. Star Raiders generates random enemies in an area around you. They still have positional data to shoot at or they aren't things. But they're not persistent (that's the game industry term for things that stick around) so if you leave they stop existing rather than staying at that same position, remembered. And maybe they're just placed relative to the player rather than moving around with their own physics, so they're simple fake enemies instead of simulations of enemy combatants with the same rules as you. But none of that means that there is or isnt' a map, it just means the enemy code is much simpler, and they're not storing variables for the enemy states'. Which makes for a simpler game (which runs faster and on less memory on old hardware) so its nice when games got upgraded to where they could start remembering real enemy AIs, but that doesn't mean they "have a map" now. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jan 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:16
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:For it to pop up, the position has to exist somewhere. A sprite is simpler than a model, but its still a THING. You can't have a thing without code putting it there. I'd understand this better if you explained it with Octas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:I'd understand this better if you explained it with Octas. Imagine eight octas are on the edge of a cliff
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:24
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Imagine eight octas are on the edge of a cliff Star Citizen works the same way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:29
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKQ3ZNQ_O8&t=17s
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:42
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:Star Citizen works Strong disagree
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2021 23:42
|
|
|
https://i.imgur.com/Sco5mQj.mp4
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 00:39
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I understand what Elite is, I've played it dude. But if you would go back and read through my previous reply to you, that isn't "there is no map". There is still a map. Having black space doesn't mean there isn't a map. He means more that everything is a procedural generated element of the player entity not that there isn't a map, which is an abstract concept at the code level anyway. Hence the game has a very small footprint because really you are only truely tracking the player.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 00:57
|
|
|
Scruffpuff posted:I'm still laughing at the "Octa" poo poo. Has there ever been a more elaborate rendition of the bargaining stage of grief? "If reality were totally different, could Chris Roberts make Star Citizen then? He didn't fail, existence failed. In an alternate reality, Star Citizen would be the BDSSE." It is honestly one of the cuter things the guys and girls have come up with. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:12
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Yeah, but my point is that extending out CryEngine isn't "writing inefficient code that modern beefy pcs can let you get away with" which is what you were saying. Extending out CryEngine isn't game development. They haven't even started making the game SC is supposed to be. The problem has nothing to do with performance or modern CPU power. Its just lack of design. You see what I mean? Oh wait, were we having an argument? Did I win? If not: Yes, I see what you mean and I agree and you win, congrats on outwitting me. You very much owned me hard. If discussion: What are we talking about again? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:14
|
|
|
Did anybody consider how far along Chris would be by now if he made his code using a Navajo Code Talker and telling them to make it in horses?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:18
|
|
|
Colostomy Bag posted:I dunno. Given their staff turnover they should have installed a revolving door instead of a sliding one. Good luck Ben Lesnick ever getting through a revolving door. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:29
|
|
|
Kosumo posted:Good luck Ben Lesnick ever getting through a revolving door. Maybe that's who the Space Door was for?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:30
|
|
|
Rapid and fatal hyperthermia and dehydration when naked posted:Actual Result
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:30
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:Did anybody consider how far along Chris would be by now if he made his code using a Navajo Code Talker and telling them to make it in horses? Alternate universe Santa Ball footage proves your point https://i.imgur.com/5cwrRNN.gifv
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:34
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:Another bit of technology I would say CIG is trying is to use the actual location of a player for math instead of retargetting the world around the player as they move to some set distance. Most open world games do this, even GTA V. And all objects are dynamic and aren't persistent and will be despawned within a radius of the player. In SC, these objects are persistent which crushes the memory requirement for each server, where a huge db is created for all objects (in an out of a ship) and they have to persist. In Elite, I don't know about now, but previously after 30 mins of space battles, an asteroid belt would be littered with objects and cause performance / latency issues between players. Objects in Elite have despawn timers for this, and even so would cause strange syncing issues where some pilots can't see certain objects while others can. With SC having a massive cache that requires reading / writing for every single object in the game world, I personally think that's a pretty huge and dumb undertaking. Therefore, buy an Idris.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 01:53
|
|
|
no_recall posted:With SC having a massive cache that requires reading / writing for every single object in the game world, I personally think that's a pretty huge and dumb undertaking. It's pretty huge and dumb but it's also the only way to do it if you want persistence, partly why simulator and grognard games are so heavy on the system.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 02:26
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:The things you're saying about Elite and Star Raiders aren't wrong, but the language you're using is confusing at best. Zaphod42 posted:There is still a map. Zaphod42 posted:Friend, there is never a map. And you're clear as loving bell mate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 02:56
|
|
|
Thoatse posted:Alternate universe Santa Ball footage proves your point Finally we know what Enders Game tried to do and CR tried to copy when he was on his SC will be an esport kick. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:02
|
|
|
no_recall posted:Most open world games do this, even GTA V. And all objects are dynamic and aren't persistent and will be despawned within a radius of the player. In SC, these objects are persistent which crushes the memory requirement for each server, where a huge db is created for all objects (in an out of a ship) and they have to persist. Turning around in GTA generally spawned and de-spawned cars and this affected approximately 4 people out of the millions who made GTA a critical, acclaimed success as one of the best video game franchises so far.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:05
|
|
|
I just want to Fud Ro Dah the gently caress out of some Uber nerds well placed dinner set they hand arranged and crash the server. And because the silverware fell into their space pool when they bring the server up again the still sinking silverware immediately crashes everything again and basically the game is down for a week while the devs try to figure out what's going on from YouTube videos people upload in the 8 seconds before the next crash.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:09
|
|
|
We have an opportunity to not have a slap fight in here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
Flannelette posted:He means more that everything is a procedural generated element of the player entity not that there isn't a map, which is an abstract concept at the code level anyway. That's true for NMS but I don't think its necessarily true of Elite, although I can't really say for sure. But again, even for NMS there's still a space the objects exist in which seems to be what he was implying didn't exist, since you "only check your position against it" to see if they're there or not. But that's all any game does, they just do the checks more often and for more angles and so on. The Titanic posted:Oh wait, were we having an argument? ....what? We were talking about SC... I don't know why you'd say that like that. I in absolutely no shape or fashion was trying to "own you" I have no clue where you're getting that. Re-read my post, I think you added something that isn't there. "Do you see what I mean?" does not mean "YOU ARE WRONG!" it means "do you understand the message I am conveying, my point of view, which differs from yours, but does not prove yours wrong" Right?? If anything you and I were mostly in agreement, so I'm really confused why you're suddenly throwing this out like I've been calling you names for pages, which I absolutely 100% have not. It was a discussion. What you were talking about was you said that you don't like how technology improving has made it easier for people like Chris to just kludge their way through a game. I was saying I don't really think its that simple, on the one hand everybody does that where it makes sense, on the other hand you can't really get away with doing it everywhere even on modern hardware, and that isn't CIG's biggest problem. That's all. Novaspectra posted:And you're clear as loving bell mate. Its a complicated subject and the word "map" doesn't have a clear unambiguous definition in this context. I've explained it both ways to be clear so that it isn't just an argument of semantics. If you read the words around what you edited out, it should make perfect sense. Albeit, the inner workings of game engines can be a complex subject. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jan 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
Torquemada posted:We have an opportunity to not have a slap fight in here. Too late 
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
So I played about 45 minutes of new Spacegame, Everspace 2: It's very, very pretty to look at. Really sharp aesthetic, great contrast of colors and lights/darks. You don't get out of your ship and walk around, but you do get to fly around giant interiors.  Explosions look super neat. It's definitely very "game-y" in a way I might start to bounce off of, I definitely see myself fiddling with the flight controls which feel very unnatural to me. Like clicking in the left thumbstick to roll type poo poo. Makes me feel clumsier than I should.  Going to warp looks neat, but you're definetely staring at a screen for a few seconds waiting around to get from point A to point B.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
”What is a map?” *waves hands wildly -Chris Roberts, Legendary Game Developer
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:That's true for NMS but I don't think its necessarily true of Elite, although I can't really say for sure. But again, even for NMS there's still a space the objects exist in which seems to be what he was implying didn't exist, since you "only check your position against it" to see if they're there or not. But that's all any game does, they just do the checks more often and for more angles and so on. I think NMS writes everything into the server once its generated though so you can move around it without it being erased as well as everything around the player being separate entities that are created then erased at a certain distance. What I mean and what I think he means (and I've never looked at elite so I don't know if it's doing this or not) is all the things in the world rooted at the player's values so there is no big table of entities to track. So an asteroid instead of having a location in 3D space which is all saved in memory along with its other properties like they would these days is created only using a transform of the player's information similar to how things are changed on a moving view port in a raster. This is obviously very limiting but very performance/space saving. The existence of a map or not is an alien concept to a computer either way, the map is in your head.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
Flannelette posted:I think NMS writes everything into the server once its generated though so you can move around it without it being erased as well as everything around the player being separate entities that are created then erased at a certain distance. Some things are persisted yeah, especially for multiplayer. But I think its mostly things you add on top, like buildings, where the planets stay procgen. Anything you dig would have to be saved though. Flannelette posted:What I mean and what I think he means (and I've never looked at elite so I don't know if it's doing this or not) is all the things in the world rooted at the player's values so there is no big table of entities to track. Yeah but I already discussed this  Should have figured nobody would read. But otherwise what's the point of having the conversation...What does "rooted at the player's values" mean? This post of mine probably addresses it: Zaphod42 posted:Star Raiders generates random enemies in an area around you. They still have positional data to shoot at or they aren't things. But they're not persistent (that's the game industry term for things that stick around) so if you leave they stop existing rather than staying at that same position, remembered. And maybe they're just placed relative to the player rather than moving around with their own physics, so they're simple fake enemies instead of simulations of enemy combatants with the same rules as you. But none of that means that there is or isnt' a map, it just means the enemy code is much simpler, and they're not storing variables for the enemy states'. Which makes for a simpler game (which runs faster and on less memory on old hardware) so its nice when games got upgraded to where they could start remembering real enemy AIs, but that doesn't mean they "have a map" now. I'm not sure I would describe that as "rooted in the player's values" but again, lots of semantic arguments here that aren't of much value. Whatever you call them... it has nothing to do with a "map" existing or not. There's several different things possible. You can have a game engine that goes "you're in space... uh, there's probably a pirate here, so spawn a pirate to fight" versus "we simulate pirates moving around and then check if where you go, there's one there already". There's also "your enemy is a sprite that just spins around you until you shoot it" versus "your enemy is a sprite that uses the same Newtonian Physics that you use to move around". Conflating all of these together doesn't really mean much, beyond "games get more detailed over time as computers allow" which is like, yeah. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jan 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2021 03:44
|
|