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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's the sort of thing where if you read one or two books you go 'eh, I can see why someone would read it that way but it doesn't seem like that big a deal" but as you read more and more books and the same things keep happening even as a kid it comes off as so weird and gross.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:26
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JazzFlight posted:Who knows, maybe they'll change a few storylines to give some sympathy to the vermin? I feel like the weird speciesism is such a glaring issue in the books that they basically have to do this. Which frankly I wouldn't mind at all as someone else who loved the books as a kid, and has since looked back and realized how kinda seriously hosed up the series was. And the more I think about it, the more I actually am genuinely interested in seeing how they hopefully address it in the upcoming series.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:46
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JazzFlight posted:Hmm... this makes me wonder how much leeway they'll give the new show. Who knows, maybe they'll change a few storylines to give some sympathy to the vermin? The thing is, plenty of similar stories can do that sort of simplified "rats are in a war with mice" and not have it feel gross. It's simple shorthand and a million popular things do it just fine without feeling so vile. I can think of a million stories that use 'all the good guys are [this thing] and all the bad guys are [this other thing]" where like, you could feel someone reading way into it to find it as a racist thing, but it's just a shorthand for the two sides. Redwall feels like they grind it in in a horrible way. A fairly early book (the 8th I think?) has the 'good guys' kill a nursing mother (nursemaid?) in a battle leaving a nursing baby ferret orphaned, they want to kill it but instead a kind couple save it and agree to raise it. they do and it grows up to betray everyone and poison all the mice. and it's played off like the couple that raised it needed to learn a lesson (by raising a child from nearly birth to adulthood then seeing it murder their friends) and everyone that who assumed it was going to grow up evil were vindicated and were the sensible ones. It's not even a story where the point is everyone had assumptions and it grew to fill them, it was just an evil baby. I feel like books before that had elements of similar stuff but were kind of "eh, it's fine, mice good, vermin bad" but almost every kid that got to that book said "what the gently caress even is this?" at that whole plotline. It's so hyperbolically needlessly hateful. It's so directly set up as a story with a lesson and the lesson is so overtly evil. It's a nursing baby! the good guys murdered the mom! then everyone learns a big lesson about showing it kindness because a ferret is a ferret is a ferret even if it's shown love by the nicest couple in town.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:53
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Hedrigall posted:So the fourth one is called 3.0+1.0 The official names are Rebuild of Evangelion 1.0 - You Are (Not) Alone Rebuild of Evangelion 2.0 - You Can (Not) Advance Rebuild it Evangelion 3.0 - You Can (Not) Redo While in production, 3.0 was titled Rebuild of Evangelion: Q So the last one is Rebuild of Evangelion 3.0+1.0 - Thrice Upon a Time.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:59
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Given Brian Jacques is deceased, it's likely the writers may have more leeway especially in today's environment to avoid the speciesism - The Outcast of Redwall definitely needs a total rewrite. There's a reason why Blaggut and Romsca were basically the most popular characters in the series - a ferret pirate who protected the old abbot from her cruel crewmates at the cost of her life, and a silly rat that befriended the kids and gave up pirating to build boats.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQuoffM1y-w
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Feb 10, 2021 18:42
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I really wanted to like Earwig, and it was starting to grab me and then it just ends. I don't really think it would work well as a 2D movie, because the plot just isn't there. The food still looks pretty good though.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:34
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graventy posted:I really wanted to like Earwig, and it was starting to grab me and then it just ends. I don't really think it would work well as a 2D movie, because the plot just isn't there. The food still looks pretty good though. Watched it last night. Pretty much exactly what I thought. Might make shepherd's pie this weekend.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:37
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yeah, the story just seemed like a really bad pick for an adaptation if Goro was unwilling to expand on it.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:43
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The thing is, plenty of similar stories can do that sort of simplified "rats are in a war with mice" and not have it feel gross. It's simple shorthand and a million popular things do it just fine without feeling so vile. I can think of a million stories that use 'all the good guys are [this thing] and all the bad guys are [this other thing]" where like, you could feel someone reading way into it to find it as a racist thing, but it's just a shorthand for the two sides. Hopefully the people adapting it are smart enough to change things and make them feel less overtly racist, because it really is impossible to miss. I read those books when I was like 8 or 7 and back then I didn't quite have the words or the life experience to fully understand what was happening, but they still felt "wrong" in a way that made me very uncomfortable. There's a lot of good stuff in the Redwall books, a lot of good descriptions of food, just take out the parts about how some
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Feb 10, 2021 21:42
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If Redwall does well that means The Deptford Mice gets closer to being made  I bet it doesn't hold up well given I last read it literally two decades ago, but I remember it being eerie. 
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Feb 10, 2021 21:46
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Ccs posted:Well at least Redwall has a better chance than Mouse Guard of being released, considering Netflix won't be acquired by anyone anytime soon. I was excited for Mouse Guard and then really disappointed in it's canceling, until I saw the footage they had done. I really disliked the look of the mice in the movie, especially because they looked nothing like the art from the comics.
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Feb 10, 2021 21:50
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Hopefully the people adapting it are smart enough to change things and make them feel less overtly racist, because it really is impossible to miss. I read those books when I was like 8 or 7 and back then I didn't quite have the words or the life experience to fully understand what was happening, but they still felt "wrong" in a way that made me very uncomfortable. It would also be fine if they just committed to “vermin are bad” and were just normal about it. Just make them a bad guy faction like a normal story and no one would care. Redwall just had to make it so weird constantly by constantly humanizing the enemy but never ever going anywhere with that except reinforcing the bad guy is inherently evil. It’s just the ending of Alfred Hitchcock’s “lifeboat” over and over, without the excuse that standards and practices forced them into it
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Feb 10, 2021 22:17
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Forget Redwall, we are getting an Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents animated movie I hope it’s good 
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Feb 10, 2021 22:43
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:Forget Redwall, we are getting an Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents animated movie That’s legit one of my favourite discworld books. For a young adult one it’s so dark and morbid. Also all the animals rule
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Feb 10, 2021 23:23
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The biggest problem with red wall is it ultimately basically every single book is the same
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Feb 10, 2021 23:28
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Pick posted:The biggest problem with red wall is it ultimately basically every single book is the same Yeah, the thing about redwall is the concept of redwall and the moment to moment writing of redwall is amazing. Like it's this very low magic fantasy world that still has monsters and stuff, and just brutally kills everyone all the time in a way unlike most kid's books. It was not like anything else out there in children's literature. It's like the witcher for babies. but like, it also kinda sucks. it's all weird and screwed up, the stories repeat and contradict each other. The storyline falls into prequels of prequels of prequels pretty quick where everyone is identical to everyone else but 100 mouse years ago from the other guys. I hope a netflix adaption would be just the general vibe of it and drop basically all the details from what happens in the books. nobody likes the specific redwall stories, they like reading about a lizard tearing someone's spine out on a boat and then 14 pages about how good barley tastes.
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Feb 10, 2021 23:39
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It’s time for the real Ludmilla to come out... I’m up to that movie in Bluth’s filmography
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Feb 10, 2021 23:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:14 pages about how good barley tastes. also I would like to formally complain because this bothered my 10 year old self so much: in early books they are mouse sized and eat mouse sized food. They will describe a recipe as like, a drop of dew and one single seed cooked up. Then in the middle books they eat fictional stuff, like hot pepper flowers and stuff with fanciful names that are clearly the mouse version of a regular human food, but then by the end of the series they just eat human food and will just be eating apples and stuff even though they are mice. It made me absolutely unreasonably angry as a kid when they ate a bowl of beans or something. how big are these beans? also they had a horse in the first book but I think the first book was just weird like that.
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Feb 10, 2021 23:48
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Every animated whatever is an adaptation of something! Where is....the ur animated film? Natively cinematic, like Dumbo, Nightmare Before Christmas, Rango, Ice Age, etc. Most but not all of Bakshi. Most disney stuff is adapted (except short content but which is just arguably formally adapted from van buren and aesops fables and that sort of thing) from fairy tales or novels! And I think there is a strength narratively to a visual "illustration" or puppet show as opposed to a live action treatment of fantasy, but for that matter where are adaptations of better books? Earthsea is a deep text and again, a rich adaptation for all you goro haters, coraline and fantastic mr fox too. Coraline's even better than the book! So what books? A Confederacy of Dunces? It is really too bad about Blue Sky. All the CG studios have their commercial flounderings, but Ice Age was a real original shot! And It's worth it that the pillar of their franchise was their own idea and it looked kind of rough. And now disney owns them, but due to legalese it never quite owns brains that come up with ideas. Currently some terrible executive has flown to the furthest reaches of earth to buy the rights to a walrus's story about vomiting a lot of fish. Little does the executive know, it's not even his best vomiting story.
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Feb 11, 2021 00:22
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heavy traffic, wizards and hey good lookin' are 100% original. so, alas, is cool world.
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Feb 11, 2021 04:41
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FunkyAl posted:like Dumbo
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Feb 11, 2021 04:58
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https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1359541117910470658
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Feb 11, 2021 05:29
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Scooby Doo is like one of the worst original properties ever invented by mankind and I cannot understand why it of all things seems to constantly get reboots
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Feb 11, 2021 05:36
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perepelki posted:heavy traffic, wizards and hey good lookin' are 100% original. so, alas, is cool world. Cool World gets a bad rap, especially considering it is the greatest film ever made. Timeless Appeal posted:Dumbo is an adaptation. I had believed it was an adaptation of a zoetrope. Ah well
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Feb 11, 2021 05:58
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in animation news, Clone High is returning 
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Feb 11, 2021 06:07
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I'm not going to go to bat for Redwalls unjustifiable specieism, but for the sake of completeness there was ONE book where a comic relief sea rat befriends a couple of children, decides he's had enough of his abusive captain, kills him and then lives... Away from Redwall but is still welcomed there as a guest when he drops by.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:15
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Pick posted:Scooby Doo is like one of the worst original properties ever invented by mankind It reinvents itself every 5-10 years so it's pretty evergreen. Those Scooby-Doo meets The Harlem Globetrotters/Batman/Sonny and Cher episodes were pretty popular as well. My kids loving love the original Scooby-Doo episodes and they super-enjoy Witch's Ghost, Zombie Island, and a few other of those post-98 movies. Honestly Johnny Test is way loving worse.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:24
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Pick posted:The biggest problem with red wall is it ultimately basically every single book is the same You could say the same thing of mystery novels. There is comfort in a set formula that allows for creativity/variety in the margins. It also made Martin The Warrior, which deviated from the formula, much more striking, which was thematically appropriate and really cool. For a kid's TV show that is perfect, just let it keep cranking forever. The binging format makes the riddles less compelling but that's just something we all have to live with now. The weird squicky racism that is baked into that formula is a much bigger problem. Speaking of riddles and narratives in cartoons, is there a good way to get the good French cartoons in English? I'm thinking of Cities of Gold and Bell and Sebastian. I've looked but it's either buying part of the series on DVD from an irreputable site or just ??? Like, I couldn't even find :files: though admittedly, I'm not very good at that.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:38
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The cast of Scooby-Doo is iconic and well-balanced. It's not an accident that this is so: there were countless groups of wacky adventuring teens before them across multiple media, and there have been countless imitators after them. Any one of them could have been the one that proved memorable. They're just the survivors.
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Feb 11, 2021 09:57
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Yeah, flexibility is the key thing, you can throw them into nearly any situation and bounce off anyone (as they did, given the ridiculous amount of guest stars, crossovers, and imitators) and get a decent idea of how they're going to react and what they're going to do. (personally, my favourite is Shaggy and Scooby teaming up with the Undertaker, who they are both terrified and massive fans of) It's tame enough that it can keep kids amused and old reruns become funnier when you're seeing them meeting the Adam West version of Batman or some ancient celebrities you've barely if ever heard of and wonder what was supposed to be entertaining about them. And while the characters are pretty simple by default, you can give them depth and it still feels natural. It's also not nearly as bad as most media from that long ago with racism or sexism for the most part. (Flim-Flam aside) The girls are allowed to do things and the boys are allowed to be the butt of the joke.
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Feb 11, 2021 10:14
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imo, part of scooby-doo's appeal is that it's structured exactly the same as the typical 'five man band' from basically every show with a team of some sort, except there's no protagonist, so you just get five completely wacky idiots with no cardboard cutout for them to centre themselves around like if you squint maybe fred is that person but all the good versions of the show make him just as ridiculous and/or weird as everyone else
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Feb 11, 2021 10:40
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I think an important thing with 2 dimensional characters to help them feel more real isn't necessarily giving them a third dimension, you don't have to go that far, but you can expand on them and imply things that give them texture. Not a full extra dimension, but something that helps them fit in the world. Like a 2D henchman character for example, take the terrifying silent giant Walter from the Mask cartoon. His entire characterisation is that he's a violent criminal who has no real personality outside of that. Or it could have been - but they show other facets of his life that imply that he isn't as blank as he comes across. When he tries the Mask on and it has no effect, you'd initially assume it's because he has no id, he's basically mindless, but he isn't. He is often shown outside of his job, and he has hobbies. He paints landscapes in a lot of smaller scenes in episodes that he's not the star of, he has a semi-love interest in one episode (she's crushing hard on him, she knew him from prison, but he doesn't reciprocate). It adds texture. He's not JUST a brutal henchman, he's also an asexual artist who the mask doesn't work for not because he's blank, but because he doesn't WANT anything. He is completely satisfied in his existence. What we see of him isn't blankness, but Serenity. Similarly, the character duo Fish-Guy and Putty-Thing have texture in how they interact with others and each other. Fish Guy is a bitter manipulative shithead who is jealous of Putty Thing having better powers than him, not because he's helpless, but because he wants to be able to hurt people himself. Putty Thing is a relatively sweet guy, his main problem is that he's young and impatient. Of course he wants to use his power, but he's too impatient to wait for a constructive context for it so he just smashes stuff because he wants to flex. But he is really nice and protective to his friends. Even though him replacing Fish Guy with Stanley in the episode where they break up is a gambit to prove to Fish Guy that he doesn't need him, he treats Stanley as well as he treated Fish Guy - he's just as jovial and friendly with him, never accuses him of slowing him down, always happy to help him keep up. He's mainly very easily led due to not being very smart, which means Fish Guy can easily push him out of his comfort zone into acts of increasing malice, not because it's what HE wants but because it's what his friend wants. Fish Guy knows this and uses it against him a lot. These aspects add complexity to their relationship with each other which gives them texture - they'll always be villains, they'll always be the Terrible Two, but there is a kernel there of something else that helps them feel more like people rather than stock characters.
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Feb 11, 2021 11:04
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ungulateman posted:imo, part of scooby-doo's appeal is that it's structured exactly the same as the typical 'five man band' from basically every show with a team of some sort, except there's no protagonist, so you just get five completely wacky idiots with no cardboard cutout for them to centre themselves around If anything Scooby is supposed to be the protagonist- he's the titular character, he closes out every episode, he has the signature gimmick of being a talking dog, but the show rarely if ever focuses on that and he's basically one of a duo with Shaggy. Who if anything also has a claim on 'protagonist', but then, Scooby and Shaggy are primarily reactive characters who spend most episodes running from everything and literally stumbling into secrets and mysteries, which the other characters have to figure out the context of. This may well by why the guest star structure works so surprisingly well, since there's no audience-appealing protagonist that the guest star has to jostle for limelight with, and you can have say, Batman being Batman, or Johnny Bravo being Johnny Bravo, while the Mystery Inc crew are also doing their thing. And they can be as competent/lucky as necessary to survive various levels of antics, especially since their usual plan of 'If it looks really scary, run the gently caress away, and if you have room to think and have figured out what they're up to, set a trap' is a pretty solid one for most circumstances. They're all reactive characters in general, come to think of it, and that works just fine for a story. Speaking of audience appeal it may also help that having no obvious single protagonist means that there's a variety of characters the audience can project themselves onto and/or find appealing in their own ways, without one single idea of what the audience is supposed to be. (This might be why Scrappy-Doo is so loathed; aside from all his dumb gimmicks he's obviously meant to be the character for kids to like and project themselves onto, supposedly asking 'Why don't they just fight the monsters?' but it apparently took the entertainment industry decades to figure out that kids don't give a poo poo if there's no kids in a movie or show when the adults or teenagers are interesting enough)
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Feb 11, 2021 12:19
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Also Scrappy was supposed to actually be effective but the executives neutered his character rending him just irritating. I can't recall the exact reason it may have been that he was considered imitable or something? There's an article about it.
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Feb 11, 2021 12:26
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I don't mind a Scooby anything. But why? Why an adult thing? Why not an all ages thing? Why specifically Velma? Are we getting the backstory of her glasses? I think BioEnchanted has a pretty good take on why this isn't going to help Velma in any way. And does this mean A Pup Named Scooby-Doo isn't canon?
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Feb 11, 2021 12:29
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Darth TNT posted:I don't mind a Scooby anything. But why? Why an adult thing? Why not an all ages thing? Why specifically Velma? Are we getting the backstory of her glasses? Yay, someone liked my Texture essay 
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Feb 11, 2021 12:40
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BioEnchanted posted:Also Scrappy was supposed to actually be effective but the executives neutered his character rending him just irritating. I can't recall the exact reason it may have been that he was considered imitable or something? There's an article about it. That sounds right, and also sounds right that they introduce a character around a gimmick, then have execs nix the gimmick and render him useless. Probably didn't want kids punching their parents in the nads.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:42
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Scooby Doo is unique in that it only got good after being on the air for 30 years
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Feb 11, 2021 15:02
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Really don't think it needed to go live-action though.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:09
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