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Moon Slayer posted:Yeah, that all makes sense, thanks. I do find it kind of weird how "women who want to be men*" doesn't flip the same switch as women "intruding" in male-dominated areas, though. Oh well, who can really understand the mind of a bigot. Because women intruding in male-dominated areas want to remain women, bring their women selves into the space, and usually want the male dominated areas to stop being lovely holes of toxic masculinity where guys can be their “true selves”. Transgender men, in that mindset, aren’t really bringing women selves into the space and therefore aren’t as immediate a threat to change that space. It’s also so much more amazingly rare for it to happen that it doesn’t register as a possibility in comparison.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:01
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Also they probably don't even realize when it's happening, it's not like transmen announce themselves in places frequented by bigots because they don't want to get murdered. Also if an FTM guy won a men's wrestling competition the men wouldn't be complaining about getting beaten by a girl pretending to be a man because that's emasculating according to the same toxic masculinity bullshit.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:10
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Moon Slayer posted:Yeah, that all makes sense, thanks. I do find it kind of weird how "women who want to be men*" doesn't flip the same switch as women "intruding" in male-dominated areas, though. Oh well, who can really understand the mind of a bigot. It's because if someone like Mack Beggs was allowed to compete with the boys, they assume he would lose because he's """"not really a boy"""" and therefore they wouldn't expect him to be able to beat """real""" boys at wrestling. If you start from the misogynistic take that boys are just inherently better at sports than girls are, then you can see that there's no reason for them to care about trans men wanting to compete with other men because they think of it as just setting themselves up to fail. There's also another more subtle part of it where your garden variety transphobe just... doesn't think men can be victims of sexual harassment or assault (at least not by a woman). Therefore the idea of a """woman""" wanting to peek in on the men's locker room or the men's bathroom is non-threatening.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:56
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Moon Slayer posted:Yeah, that all makes sense, thanks. I do find it kind of weird how "women who want to be men*" doesn't flip the same switch as women "intruding" in male-dominated areas, though. Oh well, who can really understand the mind of a bigot. One of the most important elements is that these people basically never speak to a trans man, a trans woman, or anyone non-binary that they are aware of. They are told about how terrible and unthinkable those people are by their pastors, politicians, and other thought leaders, almost all of whom are also not speaking from experience. This is why their concerns don't seem to have contact with reality: it's because they don't have contact with reality. It's been sold to them by people just as ignorant as they are, who are pushing this for their own political and/or theological reasons, not because they spoke to trans women and found the trans women cackling about how they get to use women's restrooms now.
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Feb 21, 2021 04:53
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ZeeToo posted:One of the most important elements is that these people basically never speak to a trans man, a trans woman, or anyone non-binary that they are aware of. I mean, neither have I, at least in non-dead internet forum settings, but turns out it doesn't take that much basic human empathy to not be horrible. 
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Feb 21, 2021 05:12
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CuwiKhons posted:If you start from the misogynistic take that boys are just inherently better at sports than girls are, then you can see that there's no reason for them to care about trans men wanting to compete with other men because they think of it as just setting themselves up to fail. People with testosterone tend to beat people without it
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Feb 21, 2021 07:54
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Despera posted:People with testosterone tend to beat people without it A transman that wants to compete in men's sports is probably on testosterone. Also yes, given the same degree of athletic talent in certain sports (not all sports), a guy will on average probably beat a woman at it. But also it's not exactly news to say that a lot of misogynistic guys are of the opinion that any random untrained man could outcompete a woman that's a professional athlete at her chosen sport. Which is pretty much the exact argument going on with transwomen. People with lovely takes seem to think that guys are deciding "well, I'm not good enough at sports to beat men at it, I guess I'll radically change my life and body and start taking estrogen so I can get a trophy by competing against women instead."
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Feb 21, 2021 08:08
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If that wrestler posted above who was made to wrestle girls wasn’t on T or any other medical intervention, then there’s no basis for the claim that he was unfairly positioned to inevitably defeat all those poor girls, not that the terfs would care about the truth or be above lying.
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Feb 21, 2021 08:16
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There's a lot of confusion about how testosterone does or doesn't work, but just remember that trans athletes have been competing for years and have not been doing better than cis athletes.
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Feb 21, 2021 09:22
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Minor point of order: it's "trans men" and "trans women" as two separate words. Using them as a single one, "transmen" and "transwomen," is often used by TERFs and transphobes as a dogwhistle: "transwomen aren't women, they're transwomen." Carry on 
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Feb 21, 2021 11:28
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Despera posted:People with testosterone tend to beat people without it Not necessarily: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/4-myths-about-testosterone/
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Feb 21, 2021 11:35
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Mikl posted:Minor point of order: it's "trans men" and "trans women" as two separate words. Using them as a single one, "transmen" and "transwomen," is often used by TERFs and transphobes as a dogwhistle: "transwomen aren't women, they're transwomen."
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Feb 21, 2021 13:33
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Mikl posted:Minor point of order: it's "trans men" and "trans women" as two separate words. Using them as a single one, "transmen" and "transwomen," is often used by TERFs and transphobes as a dogwhistle: "transwomen aren't women, they're transwomen." Oh, my mistake, I'll keep that in mind. Most of my non-cis friends are NB so if it's ever come up, I don't remember. Good to know though.
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Feb 21, 2021 14:14
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Did a thing, this is one of two places it makes sense to post it:
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Feb 21, 2021 14:53
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cowboy
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The fact that English uses compound words sometimes but not other times is incredibly confusing and terrible, by the way.
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Feb 21, 2021 14:54
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Idontknowwhatyouretalkingaboutitsfine
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Feb 21, 2021 14:56
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Antigravitas posted:The fact that English uses compound words sometimes but not other times is incredibly confusing and terrible, by the way. My pet peeve is that people use "anymore" incorrectly nowadays. My pet peeve is that people don't use "anymore" correctly anymore.
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Feb 21, 2021 15:02
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FFT posted:What're you talkin' 'bout? Mine is that "most everyone" is a term. It's either everyone or not everyone, make your goddamn mind up
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Feb 21, 2021 15:06
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Feb 21, 2021 15:16
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Mikl posted:Minor point of order: it's "trans men" and "trans women" as two separate words. Using them as a single one, "transmen" and "transwomen," is often used by TERFs and transphobes as a dogwhistle: "transwomen aren't women, they're transwomen." I realize you're not the Czar of Trans Words, and I appreciate the heads-up, and I recognize that there may be a specific history that I'm not appreciating. But man, I really wish leftists as a whole would realize that just because somebody plants a flag it doesn't mean you have to let them keep it there. Shibboleths are useful and all, but the distinction between an open/closed compound in a language that has ambiguous open/closed compounding is not one I would pick.
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Feb 21, 2021 15:38
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betaraywil posted:I realize you're not the Czar of Trans Words, and I appreciate the heads-up, and I recognize that there may be a specific history that I'm not appreciating. But man, I really wish leftists as a whole would realize that just because somebody plants a flag it doesn't mean you have to let them keep it there. Shibboleths are useful and all, but the distinction between an open/closed compound in a language that has ambiguous open/closed compounding is not one I would pick.
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Feb 21, 2021 15:56
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Pilchenstein posted:Do you use a compound word to describe any other kind of women? Sure. Assemblywoman, congresswoman, there are lots. Ed. If your point is that those are job titles and not ontological categories, okay, that's a much better line of reasoning than "terfs do it and we don't want to be like terfs." betaraywil fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 21, 2021 16:07
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Mine is that "most everyone" is a term. It's either everyone or not everyone, make your goddamn mind up they've just elided the apostrophy in front as well almost 'most most or it's leaving out the "ly" in "mostly" (see also: "near every")
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Feb 21, 2021 16:11
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betaraywil posted:Sure. Assemblywoman, congresswoman, there are lots. Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? That's the distinction here. The terf crowd are pretty lovely though and disgustingly abusive. And it's something we have to deal with every day unlike cis allies who. Aren't living our lives.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:26
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betaraywil posted:I realize you're not the Czar of Trans Words, and I appreciate the heads-up, and I recognize that there may be a specific history that I'm not appreciating. But man, I really wish leftists as a whole would realize that just because somebody plants a flag it doesn't mean you have to let them keep it there. Shibboleths are useful and all, but the distinction between an open/closed compound in a language that has ambiguous open/closed compounding is not one I would pick. Yeah this seems like a really weird battle. I don't think there's anything dehumanizing about compound words. Transman and Cisman seem to be on equal footing to me. This is probably one of those issues where a single person's opinion shouldn't be the deciding factor, but for whatever it's worth, I don't have a problem with calling myself a transwoman, and I don't intend to let other people turn that into some sort of problem. I'm not going to let TERFs be the ones who are in control of language. I will fight them.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:27
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Manuel Calavera posted:Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? That's the distinction here. mods, please change my name to badposterman, tia
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Feb 21, 2021 16:42
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Despera posted:People with testosterone tend to beat people without it Mike Lester knows all about that.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:46
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Manuel Calavera posted:Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? Moon Slayer posted:mods, please change my name to badposterman, tia The question becomes "Are you Hideo Kojima?" at this point
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Feb 21, 2021 16:47
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Is Catwoman a title or a name
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Feb 21, 2021 16:49
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Manuel Calavera posted:Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? That's the distinction here. The terf crowd are pretty lovely though and disgustingly abusive. And it's something we have to deal with every day unlike cis allies who. Aren't living our lives. Right, that’s a great way of making it clear: “trans” is an adjective, which in English is a non-connected descriptor, and therefore is on the level of “black” or “tall” to describe a woman. “Transwoman” is a noun, and therefore linguistically implying a completely separate object, a different thing, from a woman. VitalSigns posted:Is Catwoman a title or a name I mean, if Batman married her, would he be Mrs. Woman or Mrs. Catwoman????? DUH
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Feb 21, 2021 17:00
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VitalSigns posted:Is Catwoman a title or a name
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Feb 21, 2021 17:10
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This wouldn't be an issue if we just used noun-adjective instead of adjective-noun, like French. "Les femmes trans" is far less ambiguous in its connotation, and also has the added bonus of denoting that they are women first. Although then you have to deal with the problem of "femme" being the word for both "woman" and "wife". Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 21, 2021 17:23
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Manuel Calavera posted:Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? That's the distinction here. The terf crowd are pretty lovely though and disgustingly abusive. And it's something we have to deal with every day unlike cis allies who. Aren't living our lives.
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Feb 21, 2021 17:40
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I'd be down to switch to big-endian but it should be noted that "big-endian" would be incorrect
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Feb 21, 2021 17:44
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Manuel Calavera posted:Would you call someone "tallman" or "blackwoman"? That's the distinction here. The terf crowd are pretty lovely though and disgustingly abusive. And it's something we have to deal with every day unlike cis allies who. Aren't living our lives. Iron Man Spider-Man Superman English is kinda wishy-washy about that sort of stuff.
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Feb 21, 2021 17:47
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"Trans man" is the correct term because it's the term most trans men want people to use; that should be the end of it. As soon as anyone on either side of the debate starts to argue that one term is more or less grammatically appropriate than another then we've lost the basic principle of "we should call people whatever they want to be called".
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Feb 21, 2021 17:59
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FFT posted:Did a thing, this is one of two places it makes sense to post it: This is a pretty lazy, low-effort post. All you did was erase half of a comic to make a slightly edgier version of the point it was already making, and you didn't even have the decency to put it in TIMG tags. The only reason I didn't probe it is because 6 hours would be overkill.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:12
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:If that wrestler posted above who was made to wrestle girls wasn’t on T or any other medical intervention, then there’s no basis for the claim that he was unfairly positioned to inevitably defeat all those poor girls, not that the terfs would care about the truth or be above lying.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:23
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 Observer:  "Boris Johnson's lockdown roadmap – As the prime minister tries to decipher his plan, Keir Starmer holds up the traffic" Sunday Telegraph:  Johnson’s moment of lockdown truth looms as announcement on reopening awaited Sunday Times:  Mail on Sunday: 
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Feb 21, 2021 19:56
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Cloud Potato posted:
I never did trust golfers after George W. Bush, could they all be irredeemable scum?
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