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Psycho Landlord posted:Lol at the guy very earnestly posting about how bad he is at Brets I didnt want to be the one to say it
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Feb 21, 2021 16:14
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Perfect vigor shock cav? Oh well if I have a unit of cav AND a unit of infantry to catch it in place and prevent it running away somehow surely I will wait what do you mean there are 8 more units of this perfect vigor shock cav and they aren't getting tired at all as the battle goes on that's unpossible
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Feb 21, 2021 16:19
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You all acting like blessed trebuchets are not the best thing ever
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Feb 21, 2021 16:20
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Also don’t Brets have no supply line penalties and powerful economies, if we’re taking cost into consideration?
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Feb 21, 2021 16:24
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Third World Reagan posted:You all acting like blessed trebuchets are not the best thing ever luv 2 fire the blessed 90kg stones 300 meters into my own formations during battle because they are blessed and deal no friendly fire* suck on that other factions
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Feb 21, 2021 16:29
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litany of gulps posted:Also don’t Brets have no supply line penalties and powerful economies, if we’re taking cost into consideration? It is more that they have a decent economy designed for 2 settlement provinces. Of course the moment you get bigger provinces the cash starts to pour in.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:33
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How! posted:They’re the only faction that can throw a 90kg stone over 300 meters tho How about a giant one-eyed Beast that can literally throw rocks at your troops? I may have found my next campaign faction.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:38
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Cygors and Minotaurs are incredibly fun but they can't save the awful beastmen campaigns
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Feb 21, 2021 16:58
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litany of gulps posted:Also don’t Brets have no supply line penalties and powerful economies, if we’re taking cost into consideration?
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Feb 21, 2021 17:18
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Feel this is a good time to repost this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlP27rvNwI Also now that I'm collecting again I'm really sad Bret was squatted because I would have loved an army of them 
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Feb 21, 2021 17:20
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Blessed trebs and just a shitload of peasants is an absurdly powerful combo, since you can do so much poo poo to ensure peasants have crazy high leadership, you just tarpit any enemy and use your laser trebs to murder them without friendly fire.
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Feb 21, 2021 17:22
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Electronico6 posted:If I remember correctly that scrap upgrade is unique to Skarsnik faction, so yes you should give it to all night gobbos so you can poison even more your enemies. Arcsquad12 posted:Yeah that's his exclusive scrap upgrade. Very nasty. Thanks, guys! 
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Feb 21, 2021 17:27
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You claim to have the best unit. However, with my best unit and another unit designed to kill your unit, I can beat it. Curious!
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Feb 21, 2021 17:28
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Literally any unit can work against the AI because it blows. I think people aren't saying "you can't be good with Brettonia"... They're saying it's a faction with a limited and fairly boring roster and want more options (like with every other army in the game)
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Feb 21, 2021 18:00
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joke: give dwarfs cav? bespoke: give brets dwarfs!
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Feb 21, 2021 18:07
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having recently rewatched lotr: cavalry unit where dwarfs ride on the back of elf ranged cavalry, but upon engaging in combat the dwarfs immediately fall off and split off into an infantry unit
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Feb 21, 2021 18:23
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Herrimault units would help to round out the roster significantly, even if they were rpg book only they were still a part of Brettonia.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:33
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Dwarves have cavalry. It's just that it flies and isnt very good
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Feb 21, 2021 18:36
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Replaying a high elf-- holy poo poo fire phoenixes are powerful.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:39
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The Chad Jihad posted:You claim to have the best unit. However, with my best unit and another unit designed to kill your unit, I can beat it. Curious! reiksguard are not the empires best unit lol. in other matchups you might spend the money on spearmen on a different unit but what else would you buy with 350 gold other than spear infantry if youre going up against bretonnia? i'm just pointing out the factions well known weaknesses and yall acting like they don't exist because youve beaten the bret campaign. i want the faction to be stronger.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:49
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Collapsing Farts posted:Literally any unit can work against the AI because it blows. I think people aren't saying "you can't be good with Brettonia"... They're saying it's a faction with a limited and fairly boring roster and want more options (like with every other army in the game) bretonnia does good work in multiplayer too
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Feb 21, 2021 18:51
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Collapsing Farts posted:Literally any unit can work against the AI because it blows. I think people aren't saying "you can't be good with Brettonia"... They're saying it's a faction with a limited and fairly boring roster and want more options (like with every other army in the game) I can get behind this take. Brettonia's been left behind a bit as far as figurehead units, and even in just having a unique tactical gameplan. Aside from Pegasus Knights (and maybe the Green Knight), the Bretonnians just don't have anything that feels unique as far as the tactical side. They're just Empire, but with 2/3 the roster and some slight balance tweaks (better cav, expendable infantry, and poison archers). Their other big things are 20% physical resist (good, but not often noticeable) and the special cav formation (which is also easy to miss, and even if you remember it's a lot of micro for a relatively small advantage - small enough that the good MP guys never use it). Contrast that to the three Elf factions. Wood Elves get the tree spirit auxiliaries, cool variants on light cav, monstrous infantry, and roster-wide advantages to their missile play. Dark Elves have (shielded!) crossbows, multiple unique monsters, a cool variant of DPS infantry, a less cool (or at least less useful) variant of heavy cav, and Bloodwrack Shrines. High Elves get the strongest top-end units of the three, the widest access to magic, amazing flying monsters, and war With all that said, I don't think the answer is to give Bretonnia better infantry. I think the answer is to further lean into their cavalry. Give them another formation (and buff the existing one). Give them a low-model-count "monstrous" cav; it can stay human-sized and on horse mounts, but make it something like ethereal and/or regenerating. Make their cavalry unbreakable while they have a charge bonus active. Maybe give them some kind of stealthy archers to tier up from peasant bowmen (Robin Hood/Merry Men-inspired).
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Feb 21, 2021 19:04
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jokes posted:Replaying a high elf-- holy poo poo fire phoenixes are powerful. I actually enjoyed High Elfs a lot, but my first and mosy favorite army will always be Skaven.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:05
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So we are ending up with a conclusion that Brets are fine in campaign, fine in multiplayer, yet still somehow bad and needing change, did I get that right?
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Feb 21, 2021 19:18
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Do the damsels ride sidesaddle?
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Feb 21, 2021 19:21
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orangelex44 posted:I can get behind this take. Brettonia's been left behind a bit as far as figurehead units, and even in just having a unique tactical gameplan. Aside from Pegasus Knights (and maybe the Green Knight), the Bretonnians just don't have anything that feels unique as far as the tactical side. They're just Empire, but with 2/3 the roster and some slight balance tweaks (better cav, expendable infantry, and poison archers). Their other big things are 20% physical resist (good, but not often noticeable) and the special cav formation (which is also easy to miss, and even if you remember it's a lot of micro for a relatively small advantage - small enough that the good MP guys never use it). yeah i think peasants are in a good place, theyre very cost effective (archers and trebuchets in particular) and do what you need them to do. just give the knights more freaking armor. its pathetic that grail knights have less armor than freaking empire knights and there isn't even a lore or tt-based explanation for it. e: the balance consideration from CA is that they have perfect vigor and the blessing. perfect vigor is more useful on basically any other kind of unit (you lose 30% charge bonus max from exhaustion which isn't really an issue for bretonnian cavaly and you want to keep them out of protracted melee as much as possible anyways) and the blessing is offset by about the same cost in armor as you get in phys resist; most other factions top tier shock cav have 120 armor while grail knights are still stuck with 90. Muscle Wizard fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 21, 2021 19:21
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I still think giving cavalry (specifically, not large monsters) some kind of charge impact damage, distinct from the charge bonus, that is susceptible to a new charge reflect would make them feel much more responsive and impactful, as well as giving disruption of spear lines before a charge more of an impact to the fight. Basically, steal 3K's impact damage system. As a bonus, that lets you play with cavalry stat variation more too.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:27
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Lt. Lizard posted:So we are ending up with a conclusion that Brets are fine in campaign, fine in multiplayer, yet still somehow bad and needing change, did I get that right? "Playable but boring". This seems like a totally valid take to have. And fine in multiplayer is actually a bit of a stretch. In one of his more recent streams (I think the LL tournament with Repanse), Turin mentioned that Bretonnia is hard carried by the strength of Fey Enchantress and her mortis engine effect. Assuming that to be true at high level play (and I would say it's pretty fair to assume Turin is more-or-less right within that area of his expertise), the faction struggles at it's most basic tactic of hammer-and-anvil. It needs to use blob tactics, which seems rather antithetical to "ideal" Bret play.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:29
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Muscle Wizard posted:e: the balance consideration from CA is that they have perfect vigor and the blessing. perfect vigor is more useful on basically any other kind of unit (you lose 30% charge bonus max from exhaustion which isn't really an issue for bretonnian cavaly and you want to keep them out of protracted melee as much as possible anyways) and the blessing is offset by about the same cost in armor as you get in phys resist; most other factions top tier shock cav have 120 armor while grail knights are still stuck with 90. I'm not getting your logic of "Perfect Vigour is actually bad because it makes sure you always get great charge bonuses on your cycle-charging unit all game." Also exhaustion affects speed which is, y'know, a good stat on cav. Also that's just looking at armour purely in a vacuum and not taking into account 120 armour is worse against armour piercing damage than 90 armour with 20% physical resistance. Like a mammoth ain't going to care about that 30 extra armour, but that 20% resistance adds up. Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 21, 2021 19:34
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Dandywalken posted:Do the damsels ride sidesaddle? And the Fay Enchantress. Before she does a magic flying piledriver on enemies so hard they explode in a fountain of gore when they hit the ground.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:35
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its rooted strongly in the problem that everyone knows youre going to bring horses and so will take things to kill them and not bring things that hate being run over by cavalry. so the fey blob threat makes people honest in that regard so it helps out brets even if you don't ever use it its also a lot easier to do than microing a lot of poo poo, and a lot of factions do deathball blobs right now. fey brings aoe buffs, degen auras, healing, and is reasonably hard to take down so she's particularly good at it but you will still be bringing cavalry because it helps your blob from just getting shot to death.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:36
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perfect vigor is insanely good on anything, especially something high value that you want to keep mobile
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Feb 21, 2021 19:38
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Muscle Wizard posted:just give the knights more freaking armor. its pathetic that grail knights have less armor than freaking empire knights and there isn't even a lore or tt-based explanation for it. Brettonian knights appear to be wearing chain mail covered by a tabard, while Empire knights are wearing full plate, which you'd expect to provide significantly better protection. They shouldn't be balancing the game around this nerd poo poo however. Just rip off how cavalry works in three kingdoms. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 21, 2021 19:38
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people get to focused on numbers when the true source of power is good animations
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Feb 21, 2021 19:40
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Tiler Kiwi posted:people get to focused on numbers when the true source of power is good animations The Tomb Scorpion has good animations because it makes it an incredibly hard target to hit/pin down. It also has good animations because it's a giant scorpion doing sick-rear end backflips through the sand.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:42
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Tiler Kiwi posted:people get to focused on numbers when the true source of power is good animations Not joking here, but isn't that really only a consideration for single-entity units (any maybe certain low-model-count stuff like Minotaurs)? Baseline infantry and cav don't splash anyway, and as far as I am aware they also don't have any animations that move them into enemy lines to get surrounded.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:45
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Blooming Brilliant posted:I'm not getting your logic of "Perfect Vigour is actually bad because you always get great charge bonuses on your cycle-charging unit all game." Also exhaustion affects speed which is, y'know, a good stat on cav. your grail knights shouldnt be anywhere near someone with mainly ap damage. you want to put them in fights theyre going to win without taking a lot of damage in return. your grail knights arent going to be fighting that mammoth, your polemen are. perfect vigor and the blessing are nice bonuses, but theyre not as good as just having a better statted unit. also this isnt mainly why id want more armor but armor also makes a unit more resistant to magical damage as most spells in the game have regular/ap components that are reduced by armor like mundane damage.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:45
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Tiler Kiwi posted:people get to focused on numbers when the true source of power is good animations absolutely lol. i love my big beautiful boy kholek and his op rear end attacks that hit twice as many guys as he can actually damage.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:47
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orangelex44 posted:Not joking here, but isn't that really only a consideration for single-entity units (any maybe certain low-model-count stuff like Minotaurs)? Baseline infantry and cav don't splash anyway, and as far as I am aware they also don't have any animations that move them into enemy lines to get surrounded. its hard to say. nobody has done testing to see how big an impact it could have. conceivably you could mod the game so everything has the same statline to test to see if someone's combat animations are doing something wild. in med 2, two handers were all garbage because their slow animations kept getting cancelled by hitstun.
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Feb 21, 2021 19:50
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a lot of the big monsters or really any single model units are pretty broken if you watch them fight, not in a good way you'll see your giant land a hit, pause for 5 seconds as it tracks back and forth trying to find a place to stop and do another hit before pivotting 180 degrees to attack in the opposite direction to the main blob of units
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Feb 21, 2021 19:51
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