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I managed all five. I'm still not sure why I bothered to be honest.
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Feb 15, 2021 20:25
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Space Butler posted:I managed all five. I'm still not sure why I bothered to be honest. Not good? The concept seems interesting, but I can't imagine what they do with five books' worth. I was thinking about picking it up for something new to read.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:38
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The long earth series is honestly pretty boring. The first one is okay, but the series drops off. I had trouble finishing the second and had no desire at all for the rest
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Feb 15, 2021 23:43
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I like The Long Earth series (or did and dropped out at some point around book 4) - it suffers badly from having two authors. There's Pratchett in there, plain as day, but there's parts of it that just drag.
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Feb 16, 2021 01:10
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Phenotype posted:Not good? The concept seems interesting, but I can't imagine what they do with five books' worth. I was thinking about picking it up for something new to read. The first two are okay, but after that it gets dull. I can't remember what even happens in the last two and there isn't even a wikipedia synopsis for the fifth.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:36
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Phenotype posted:Not good? The concept seems interesting, but I can't imagine what they do with five books' worth. I was thinking about picking it up for something new to read. The concept IS interesting, but midway through book two you can't help but realize that the basic concept is all they had when they started and now they're just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and then they wrote three more books after that.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:46
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On the thread recommendation I grabbed an ebook of Long Earth yesterday. It's pretty good, but I kind of feel like if two English authors are going to write a book together, they should either set it in England rather than America, or they should spend a little more time figuring out American idioms. For instance, no teenage girl in Wisconsin will say "take it in turns", and Americans rarely say "I've an <X>". I suppose their finely-tuned ability to detect a person's geographic origin and social class by accent doesn't extend much past the shores of Old Blighty. In general, though, I'm enjoying it.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:33
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:The concept IS interesting, but midway through book two you can't help but realize that the basic concept is all they had when they started and now they're just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and then they wrote three more books after that. The thing that was really damning about the series, for me, was reading "The High Meggas", the 1986 short story that Pratchett wrote that forms the basis for the whole thing. It's just... so much better. The characters are more vivid, the premise is more compelling, the writing is snappy instead of a trudge, and generally, it's just a much more entertaining read. Makes the flaws of the Long Earth stand out more.
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Feb 17, 2021 11:56
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With the Long Earth it was fairly obvious that the central core of the story was Pratchett and the rest was Baxter. I read all five and don't regret it, but they're not really Pterry novels.
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Feb 17, 2021 12:07
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Right, "The Watch" TV show is finally over, and my wife and I have been slogging through all eight episodes, so here are some collected ramblings. Spoilers abound. - I hated the modernized look at first, but slowly came round to it. At least they put in the explanation that the wizards stole most of the technology from Roundworld, so I guess I can accept that. I'm sure the budget had something to do with that decision as well. - However, if you modernize a well-known world so radically, the core of the characters has to stay the same for people to recognize and accept it as what it is. And this is where "The Watch" falls apart in my opinion: - Vetinari's gender swap makes zero sense. Sure, make her "Lady Vetinari", I don't care, but then don't talk about him as "him", and don't have "One Man one Vote" posters that portray him with a pointy beard. If (and that's a big If) the writers' intention was that on this version of the Discworld, people are more gender-fluid and that it doesn't matter so much if you identify as a man or a woman or something else, that's fine by me. But then Cheery's whole character arc is rendered invalid. - Speaking of Cheery, she's a cool character to root for: Clever, kind, caring. All good. Coding her as trans instead of as female is also perfectly legitimate in a 21st-century modern interpretation. But she's simply too tall, as are all the other dwarves we see. Suddenly it's no longer remarkable that Carrot is much taller than the average dwarf, and the point becomes very muddled. - I quite liked the casting of Angua. In the books I recall she was tall and athletic. Turning her into this tiny person that aggressively over-projects toughness to protect herself from emotions was a nice touch. - Vimes is decent, more or less, but the "Popeye meets Jack Sparrow" gurning and stumbling schtick gets old fast. - Death: Nope. Not at all. I can live without his voice sounding like capital letters, but the blue LEDs make his face look like a knockoff Jawa, and he has none of the gravitas and wisdom he has in the books. Instead it feels like someone read Wyrd Sisters and Soul Music and only remembered Death being easily star-struck and into music. - The "subtitled Goblin revolution" subplot seemed more at home in a Monty Python skit than in Pratchett. Also it went exactly nowhere. Spike at the end still calls Cheery "mistress" and fawns over her. - EVERY main character has a sad grimdark backstory. EVERY ONE. By the time we got to Angua's childhood flashback it didn't seem so much tragic as silly, which is a shame because on its own it was pretty harrowing. - I know music was apparently very important to the makers of the show. Fine. So we get the Watch auditioning for the Musician's Guild. Also fine, and, since it was the "Gold" song, also very funny. And playing the Dragon mating song at the end. Also fine. What I didn't like at all though was the inclusion of modern pop songs as incidental music for no good reason. What does "Walk Like an Egyptian" have to do with the City Watch apart from one line about cops hanging out in the donut shop? For me, it ruins the feeling that this is another world. It's even worse in the rest home or when they face off against Dr. Cruces in the "Summoning Dark" episode. - Speaking of music: Vetinari locking himself in his red plush dungeon during a time of crisis and grooving along to jazz music is a prime example of how the writers took elements from the books without understanding them. This is not the Patrician who locks himself in to get some peace and quiet to formulate a plan (and who enjoys music only in abstract form by reading the score sheets), this is a ruler who doesn't seem to give a poo poo about anything but personal safety and comfort. If there was a larger plan at work in Vetinari's mind, we sure didn't get to see it. - Carcer was an extemely bland villian. I felt neither menaced by him nor pity for him. Also, for some reason he grew a full head of hair for the last episode out of nowhere. - Making Wonse into a sort of Eskarina character was interesting at first, but then in the final episode her motivations changed far too quickly to be believable. And maybe I'm overinterpreting here, but how clever is it to make both your villains dark-skinned? Yes, we got a black Sybil on the side of the heroes, but it still struck me as a strange choice. - Detritus dies from a crossbow bolt? Seriously? I can only see this as motivated by budget concerns. "We can only have him in two episodes, so what do we do with him?" - The writing at the end with regards to guild policies was also all over the place. Vetinari is reducing the Thieves Guild's rates. The Watch seems happy about this. The next sentence is that now the Watch needs more recruits. Because of... reasons? (I guess you could explain it with "Less official crime -> more unofficial crime -> more work for the Watch") but it would have been nice to have this spelled out by someone. Modernization is a legitimate form of adaptation (Lovecraft Country, anyone?), but I fear this adaption will do Terry Pratchett's reputation no favors. Who was this for? - People who don't know the Discworld will have a huge hurdle to clear getting into it, as many things are not explained. Why are there imps in the cameras? What's thaumic energy? Or octiron? They will most likely walk away with "Well, I guess this Terry Pratchett stuff isn't for me". - People who never heard of Discworld and, for whatever reason, like this show, will likely be very disappointed when they read the books afterwards, since they are so different in style. - "Old fans" will likely be constantly bewildered by completely unnecessary and illogical changes to the source material. I hope the next adaptation will be better, but I almost fear that this one may have poisoned the well for quite some time. I'd love to hear what other people thought of it, now that it's complete.
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Feb 21, 2021 14:18
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I enjoyed it quite a lot, looked forward to every new episode, never came away disappointed, and I'm trying like hell to figure out why because I usually go for sticking to the source material pretty hard. Part of the reason may be that I watched the past adaptations, which all did stick to the source material, religiously, near as using the book directly as a shooting script, and thought that as a direct result they didn't work as films at all. (Going Postal did, but then it had the courage to make changes for the screen. QED.) Another part is surely that I quickly internalized as more and more promo shots got published that the producers weren't going for any sort of accurate adaptation at all, and I guess I'm not emotionally attached to Discworld enough to take that as a personal affront and was curious what they'd do. And as a third part I just absolutely loved the look and ambience of the show. Grew into a big fan of pretty much all the actors, too, who were clearly having a whale of a time. I've said it before, but the last few episodes drove it home: the whole thing strikes me as what would happen if a small theater troupe came into some money, and a broadcast slot, and just went for it. And I can appreciate that mindset. Stuff like the genderfluid casting, or the musical numbers and pop songs, I never came away with the impression that they were cynical marketing ploys or obvious gif-able moments for social media buzz*, but more that the people involved just liked that stuff and wanted it in there. gently caress it: fair enough. Even if it did lead to being uneven in quite a few areas. Which it was, as a show. Mixing two book plots was a decent idea but they dropped one for half the series - the dragon never felt like it was really present in the show's plot except when it was literally on screen - and just alluded to the other, in favour of making more self-contained episodes. Which in itself I actually like and prefer to the obvious Serialized Season Plot playbook you get in prestige TV these days. Mostly what didn't work for me were all the literal Pratchett quotes and explicitly Discworld setting details. Not so much because they reminded me of What Could Have Been but more because they removed their show so far from Discworld already that those last few remnants could easily have been dropped altogether and strengthened the idea that this was their own thing (still Inspired By Sir Terry Pratchett, of course, obviously spiritually, but also legally requiring the title screen credit). Having a second season hook in the ending was also, I fear, perhaps a tad bit overoptimistic. I'd like to see more, but I think shows with that kind of energy burn out fast, even if they're well received. I think there's still plenty of room for a series of accurate adaptations, but you'd probably need, like, MCU cash and production planning to pull it off properly. But I don't think The Watch deserves half its bad rep, nor to be entered into Pratchett fandom wikis and such as "the failed attempt." It's a perfectly good piece of TV with probably more flaws than things it gets right, but it's different and interesting, and if I may say so, it feels like a lot of folks are getting their feathers ruffled because it's not different and interesting in exactly the way they've known for twenty years. __________ *except, maybe, the Summoning Dark one
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Feb 21, 2021 15:11
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it sucked Actually, I didn't even remember that the 8th episode had released, much less that it was the season finale, which is a pretty good measure of how I feel about it. Gonna watch it in a few, maybe it'll change my opinion enough that it'll be worth posting about, but so far "it sucked" just about covers it, along with the unevenness and strange choices people have already mentioned.
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Feb 21, 2021 16:42
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I gave up halfway through. Every character getting a Certified Tragic Backstory was the final straw for me. Like...what did it actually add to the story to make Carrot an unwanted child? Or Sybil an orphan?
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Feb 21, 2021 17:22
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It's weird that every loving show seems to be a police procedural for no good reason (Lucifer, arguably Person of Interest) and then when the writers get the Watch which would have worked perfectly fine as a procedural (it may even have been great as one!) and decide nah, lets not.
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Feb 21, 2021 17:32
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Devorum posted:I gave up halfway through. Every character getting a Certified Tragic Backstory was the final straw for me. sybil is an orphan?
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Feb 21, 2021 18:16
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Devorum posted:Like...what did it actually add to the story to make Carrot an unwanted child? Or Sybil an orphan? which, if you connect it to real-life social issues of police esprit de corps and self-perception as a sworn brotherhood and all the nasty stuff that brings, isn't super great actually, but does gel with the punk thing.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:25
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So I finished Long Earth and thought it was ok, even if the ending felt sort of like the authors got tired of writing about the time they hit the Gap and decided they'd wrap it up. Then I started Long War and suddenly everyone is talking about "twains", and when somebody said they're going to "catch a twain" I had the realization that it's just the way a posh Englishman would say "train", and I had to put the loving book down.
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Feb 21, 2021 18:27
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Posh Englishman or child character in a recently localized JRPG, your call!
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Feb 21, 2021 18:32
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Dave Syndrome posted:Modernization is a legitimate form of adaptation (Lovecraft Country, anyone?), eh, the lovecraft country hbo series dropped off a cliff a couple episodes in when they started modernizing it by making it Horny On Main and having one of the protagonists rape a guy
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Feb 21, 2021 20:11
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Devorum posted:I gave up halfway through. Every character getting a Certified Tragic Backstory was the final straw for me. This is the trope of "band of misfits bonds over common tragic past and learns to work together" which is just lazy at this point.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:13
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Tunicate posted:eh, the lovecraft country hbo series dropped off a cliff a couple episodes in when they started modernizing it by making it Horny On Main and having one of the protagonists rape a guy What was that show even about? I wanted to watch a show about strange monsters but then I heard it was some weird race relations thing instead. With the way the last year has been I didn’t need that.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:22
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Jedit posted:With the Long Earth it was fairly obvious that the central core of the story was Pratchett and the rest was Baxter. I read all five and don't regret it, but they're not really Pterry novels. I haven't read them, but the vibe I got from the whole thing was PT knew he was dying and wouldn't be able to write this idea he had, so he asked a friend to expand on what he had so far. This way, he got to at least read some of the story as written by someone else and the friend got to sell way more books than he usually does. (Not that he's a slouch himself. But it's several hundred reviews per book on his own books versus ~2K reviews on Long Earth.)
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Feb 22, 2021 01:57
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Bum the Sad posted:What was that show even about? I wanted to watch a show about strange monsters but then I heard it was some weird race relations thing instead. With the way the last year has been I didn’t need that. Welcome to how black people have felt about Lovecraft for about a hundred years, I guess.
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Feb 22, 2021 02:29
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El Fideo posted:Welcome to how black people have felt about Lovecraft for about a hundred years, I guess. sounds lame and boring
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Feb 22, 2021 02:42
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Megazver posted:I haven't read them, but the vibe I got from the whole thing was PT knew he was dying and wouldn't be able to write this idea he had, so he asked a friend to expand on what he had so far. This way, he got to at least read some of the story as written by someone else and the friend got to sell way more books than he usually does. (Not that he's a slouch himself. But it's several hundred reviews per book on his own books versus ~2K reviews on Long Earth.) Having read them, read the original Pratchett short story, and reread some of the late Pratchett novels (especially Raising Steam), I suspect there's more of Pratchett in the Long Earth series than you'd think, even if the details did get fleshed out by Baxter. I never stop being surprised at how many Pratchett fans think his neurological state is responsible for the shift in tone in his late novels. While no doubt a factor, I'd think at least as big a factor would be the difference in writing those novels post-diagnosis. Doing the same thing you always did, especially when you can't, would seem less appealing when you don't know how many more books you can write. Good Omens is another collaboration, and every time I reread that I end up concluding that there's more Pratchett and less Gaiman than I had thought. The substrata of his writing isn't footnotes and clever puns, it's humanism and anger, and there's plenty of both in both collaborations, though perhaps not enough in the Long Earth series.
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Feb 22, 2021 04:04
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Bum the Sad posted:sounds lame and boring
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Feb 22, 2021 06:21
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Narsham posted:Having read them, read the original Pratchett short story, and reread some of the late Pratchett novels (especially Raising Steam), I suspect there's more of Pratchett in the Long Earth series than you'd think, even if the details did get fleshed out by Baxter. It is discussed regularly in the PT thread. My view is that Pratchett was at his best writing stand alones or short series and like many other authors he suffered from the issues that comes with reusing his favorite characters. Like how Esme, Vimes approach superhero status in their latter books, which have a detrimental effect on the stories. There are some examples (Monstrous regiment, Tiffany aching) that in my opinion show this.
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Feb 22, 2021 06:40
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The later Vimes books (except Snuff) are extremely good though? Night Watch is the best Watch book of the lot and Thud! isn't far behind.
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Feb 22, 2021 06:54
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ChubbyChecker posted:sybil is an orphan? Yes. Her parents got assassinated by assassins so that Sybil can have a motivation to oppose assassins and a bad Key Plot Item that allows her to sneak into the Assassin's Guild because they're also the Clown Guild in that they have unique, individual masks.
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Feb 22, 2021 12:19
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Devorum posted:Yes. Her parents got assassinated by assassins so that Sybil can have a motivation to oppose assassins and a bad Key Plot Item that allows her to sneak into the Assassin's Guild because they're also the Clown Guild in that they have unique, individual masks. 
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Feb 22, 2021 13:41
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That honestly makes it sound a lot dumber than it actually is and I'd even say you're deliberately making it sound so. Pretty sure the Clown Guild connection is on you, for one. They do have unique individual masks and assassin identities, because they're organized murderers who treat taking lives and orphaning innocents not only as a business, but as a fashionable lifestyle. It's played for laughs but it's deeply hosed up.
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Feb 22, 2021 14:07
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what did they keep from the book sybil apart from the name?
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Feb 22, 2021 14:26
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noble and bald
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Feb 22, 2021 14:41
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My Lovely Horse posted:That honestly makes it sound a lot dumber than it actually is and I'd even say you're deliberately making it sound so. Pretty sure the Clown Guild connection is on you, for one. The individual faces of the clowns being a key plot point in one of the books that the show is partially based on, it's pretty obvious that's where the inspiration for the individualized masks came from. The Assassins in the book were also organized murderers who treated taking lives as a business... without masks. The masks served no purpose other than as a plot device in one episode. The entire thing was dumb...which is why it sounds dumb.
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Feb 22, 2021 15:08
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I want a Televisioteatteri Discworld TV series called "Vartijat", with Kari Väänänen playing both Nobby and Vimes, and Vesa Vierikko as "Patriisi". Carl-Kristian Rundman must be in it with odd hair. Arvi Lind as Death.
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Feb 22, 2021 15:09
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Devorum posted:The individual faces of the clowns being a key plot point in one of the books that the show is partially based on, it's pretty obvious that's where the inspiration for the individualized masks came from.
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Feb 22, 2021 15:57
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My Lovely Horse posted:I thought the way you talk about how the Assassin's Guild has been merged with the Clown Guild made it sound like there's a bit in the show where the assassins literally honk their big red noses and squirt water out of a lapel flower or like the producers had actually literally transferred the idea of the Hall of Faces to the Assassin's Guild, is all. No, I just mean they were merged as one plot point with elements of both instead of it being the Clown Guild and the Assassin's Guild being next door to each other. Though they still kind of did that with the Music Guild.
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Feb 22, 2021 16:00
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Devorum posted:The masks served no purpose other than as a plot device in one episode. The entire thing was dumb...which is why it sounds dumb. It does seem very un-Pratchett to have the assassins wear masks. Assassins are proud of what they do. Its the most prestigious (and self-important) guild in the city.
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Feb 23, 2021 11:22
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I could totally buy that the assassins would begin to wear masks because they imagined it would look cool. Also, In Discworld Noir (by far the best Discworld adaptation) the assassins wear masks.
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Feb 23, 2021 14:32
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My Lovely Horse posted:That honestly makes it sound a lot dumber than it actually is and I'd even say you're deliberately making it sound so. Pretty sure the Clown Guild connection is on you, for one. I dunno, it seemed pretty dumb to me. It's what I've been saying all along -- there was a real Pratchett fan in charge of things at some point who put in all these little Discworld references like the imp cameras, and somewhere along the line they got the boot so the disinterested producers could punch it up for whatever audience they were imagining. It feels like they wanted to include the Fools' Guild and the clown faces and the hole between the guilds from Men At Arms, but then some rear end in a top hat said "hey, let's have them do a rock musical number since we're so edgy and cool" and smeared the Fools' and Assassins' guilds together so they could get Vimes on stage with spiky hair and a guitar.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:05
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