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Zaphod42 posted:Yes agreed that's what we just said they should do. Why? It's an older reading of the name of Japan in Japanese. It's shifted to Nihon now but Nippon is not just a racist mispronunciation.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:21
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That's a heckin big oof there
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Mar 2, 2021 19:22
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Zaphod42 posted:You're really going to respond to "they should probably avoid the racist stuff" with "I have never seen a more wrong opinion" ???? Yikes. Major yikes. I was not trying to defend racism, I was pointing out that "avoiding the racist stuff" does not require you to not include Ind or Nippon, admittedly a better name for Ind should probably be found. But there's literally nothing wrong with Nippon as a name, it's what Okami uses and Okami is made by japanese people about japanese mythology (it's also extremely cool and good and has the best dog god). I'm not going to say that the old portrayal of these places was okay, I am going to say that throwing the baby out with the bathwater (which is what Age of Sigmar did) being a good thing is a very wrong opinion, which maybe I didn't explain well enough. Speaking as a Scotsman and a Welshman, I actually do have an issue if the British do poo poo portrayals of all the various cultures and peoples they screwed over in their long imperial history, I don't see Nippon (and whatever better name for Ind they come up with) having to reflect that. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 19:22
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Nippon, Araby and Ind i admit are on the lazy uninspired end of a spectrum of names but Cathay is kind of fine? So it doesnt take much really. I think people will accept any implementation of these factions as long as its not a lazy hack job.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:24
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toasterwarrior posted:Is the point of contention that "Nippon" is racist because Nippon is quite literally one of the names used to refer to Japan by the Japanese in some point of their history Just read this: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Nippon Eimi posted:Why? It's an older reading of the name of Japan in Japanese. It's shifted to Nihon now but Nippon is not just a racist mispronunciation. No but the GW lore about it is all classic Japanese stereotypes. Just doesn't seem like a great thing to start with. And all y'all freaking out and defending "this is the worst take I've ever seen" is ... bad. Why are you all frothing at the mouth to attack someone just being concerned about racism? Not healthy. At all. Even if you think it isn't racist, someone being concerned about racism shouldn't be something that drives you into a rage. Its not like myself or maev actually has power to change the game, we're just discussing things on a game forum.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:24
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Cathay is just as lazy and it'd be the only one you could call racist, because it's the old timey European name for China, entirely unconnected to what anyone from that region would've called their homeland. 
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Mar 2, 2021 19:25
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there's only one poster frothing at the mouth here lol
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Mar 2, 2021 19:25
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I think it's fine to lean into stereotypes in a game like Warhammer, as long as they are fantasy stereotypes and not racial ones. The Aztec dinosaurs get a pass because there is no long standing tradition of portraying Mayans or Mexicans as lizards, for instance.Eimi posted:Cathay is just as lazy and it'd be the only one you could call racist, because it's the old timey European name for China, entirely unconnected to what anyone from that region would've called their homeland. It's derived from "Qara Khitai", a steppe nomadic empire that occupied northern China during the middle ages, so not entirely unconnected. Mantis42 fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 19:29
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Yes zaphod, clearly CA intends to copy the old lore wholesale and not change it in any way, and that's why Fimir are still rapists in the vein of Goblin Slayer
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Mar 2, 2021 19:29
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toasterwarrior posted:Is the point of contention that "Nippon" is racist because Nippon is quite literally one of the names used to refer to Japan by the Japanese in some point of their history I think it's because there's difficulty seeing a difference between a caricature of a culture in fiction and making fun of the predominant ethnicity of a culture, since racist whites have been doing that since forever to establish non-white people as "others" or just for cheap bigoted laughs
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Mar 2, 2021 19:30
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jokes posted:I think it's because there's difficulty seeing a difference between a caricature of a culture in fiction and making fun of the predominant ethnicity of a culture, since racist whites have been doing that since forever to establish non-white people as "others" or just for cheap bigoted laughs Nobody's saying they should include Nippon as a joke.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:31
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Ah, Zaphod again
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Mar 2, 2021 19:32
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Sinteres posted:Nobody's saying they should include Nippon as a joke. And nobody said they shouldn't change what's there to something else! I literally said they should do that and you're acting like I've said they can't do anything to the East as a result.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:33
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They shouldn't turn Nippon/Ind/Cathay into jokes, because the only 'joke' caricature are the greenskins. They are all, however, caricatures of real-world cultures Much like every faction in Warhammer lol
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Mar 2, 2021 19:33
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CA is absolutely going to make a full faction based exactly on early 80s gw fluff lmao
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Mar 2, 2021 19:33
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I do, however, propose they add humans to Albion that are designed to get bodied instantly by Nakai as a joke
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Mar 2, 2021 19:33
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Gentlemen. You can't fight here. This is the Total War: Warhammer thread!
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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Zaphod42 posted:You're really going to respond to "they should probably avoid the racist stuff" with "I have never seen a more wrong opinion" ???? Yikes. Major yikes. How is it racist to include armies based on india and japan? Or is Nippon referring to something racis I dont know about
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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The entire reason we want to see Ind and Nippon is because in universe all we are really rumors about what they are like. That can easily change/be corrected when they become real full factions and get actual lore. The lore is set up to be easily changed since nothing is 'official' canon, just someone's best guess in universe.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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albany academy posted:CA is absolutely going to make a full faction based exactly on early 80s gw fluff lmao Yeah lol clearly GW worldbuilding peaked in the early 80s lol
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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Deltasquid posted:Gentlemen. You can't fight here. This is the Total War: Warhammer thread! 
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Mar 2, 2021 19:35
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Zzulu posted:How is it racist to include armies based on india and japan? Or is Nippon referring to something racis I dont know about Its stuff GW wrote in the 80s and decided was icky so they dropped it and haven't touched it since. Seriously just read this stuff: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Nippon Its better to just invent new factions for that region than draw on those old stereotypes. That's all. That seems reasonable to me, but a bunch of goons are shouting me down now and going "AH ZAPHOD" because concerns over racist depictions apparently deserves mockery on SA.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:36
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GW: CA you can include nippon  CA: hell yes going to appeal to new demographics and make us both a lot of money! GW: well, actually
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Mar 2, 2021 19:36
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Zaphod42 posted:Its stuff GW wrote in the 80s and decided was icky so they dropped it and haven't touched it since. Or they could use the names and ignore the lovely old lore and thus have their cake and eat it too? Like no-one is asking for the lovely old lore stuff, they're asking for the names to have actually good lore to them because there's nothing wrong with the names (again Ind could probably get a different better name, as could Araby, Nippon is fine though and something I've pointed out Japanese developers actually did for a fantastical take on ancient Japan).
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Mar 2, 2021 19:37
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They absolutely won't use the word Oriental or have kamikaze units if they do include Nippon, so I don't think you have to worry.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:38
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Lord_Magmar posted:Or they could use the names and ignore the lovely old lore and thus have their cake and eat it too? The names? Like naming Japan-land "Japan" ? (The Lizardmen aren't called Aztecs) Or names like these quote:Sanyo Kawasaki - The tale of Sanyo Kawasaki is typical of those stories honoured so much by the Samurai cast of Nippon. Kawasaki was bitterly opposed to the government of his country, which he regarded as weak and liberal. Matters were brought to a head when a foreign ship was seen off the western coast, and the lazy authorities made no attempt to sink it. Such a lost opportunity to cause mayhem and destruction was anathema to the true Samurai, and caused widespread disgust. Sanyo Kawasaki assembled an army and laid siege to the capital. The siege was not a success, however, and Kawasaki committed ritual suicide as a gesture of disdain. This he achieved by the celebrated manner of standing on his head in a bucket of cold water. Sanyo wore plate armour and fought with the magic sword Toyota.[1a] Like, comeon. It shouldn't be so radical to say that there's not much to draw on there and they need to invent a whole new faction. Why are y'all making such a big deal out of this! Sinteres posted:They absolutely won't use the word Oriental or have kamikaze units if they do include Nippon, so I don't think you have to worry. That's all there is to GW Nippon though. What else is there? Why is it such a big deal to just do something wholly new? What are you so afraid of throwing away if you agree the Kamikaze units are bad?
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Mar 2, 2021 19:39
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Sinteres posted:They absolutely won't use the word Oriental or have kamikaze units if they do include Nippon, so I don't think you have to worry. No you don't understand, Zaphod is the arbitrator on all things videogames
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Mar 2, 2021 19:39
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Steam rolling Malekith with my legendary lord Honda Suzuki.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:41
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CA had never invented stuff from whole cloth. Nope. Sanyo Kawasaki is in the old fluff that GW admittedly pretends doesnt exist. Guess their hands are tied. Hope his red line skills are good.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:41
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Listen I know the Tories are in power for at least half a decade but I'm sure CA and GW won't be legally mandated to be as racist as possible in their new take on this hypothetical addition
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Mar 2, 2021 19:41
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Sighing as I look at the lord pool. "Honda Camry." CA has really outdone themselves with this one.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:43
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One thing I absolutely do believe is that GW considers TW3 to be good advertising for Old World. We've already seen a couple of the new Kislev units from the trailer in the promotional materials for Kislev in Old World, and I'd imagine that anything else new we see in TW3 is liable to be in Old World.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:43
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Ah yes terrible joke reference are never a thing. My good friend Kroq-Gar riding Grimlock or his buddy Tiktaq'to or the most feared ork warboss Mag Uruk Thraka. No place for that indeed. Or you know the evil necromancer Heinrich Kemmler.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:43
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Zaphod42 posted:That's all there is to GW Nippon though. What else is there? Why is it such a big deal to just do something wholly new? What are you so afraid of throwing away if you agree the Kamikaze units are bad? Approximately zero Japanese people will ever have a problem with not-Japan being named Nippon and having samurai, sorry. Like I think there's so little lore there, and what is there is so old that yeah obviously it's going to need a major rework if it gets in the game at all (which I don't even think is overwhelmingly likely in the first place), but coming at it from a standpoint that this is obviously on track to be a huge racist disaster seems like hyperbole. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 19:43
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How did i not notice mag ururk thraka before lmao
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Mar 2, 2021 19:44
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Zaphod42 posted:vim-to The vim-to monks? Holy gently caress GW.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:44
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Sinteres posted:Approximately zero Japanese people will ever have a problem with not-Japan being named Nippon and having samurai, sorry. If anything, mobile fighter g gundam would imply theyd love it
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Mar 2, 2021 19:45
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It's hosed up that Warhammer 3 will have Mr. Yunioshi as the only playable lord at launch
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Mar 2, 2021 19:46
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Ohsh!!!!! Save us!!!
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Mar 2, 2021 19:46
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Zaphod42 posted:The names? Like naming Japan-land "Japan" ? (The Lizardmen aren't called Aztecs)
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Mar 2, 2021 19:46
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