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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Jesus, the only vassal I'd trust less than Grimgor is Settra Settra literally should never accept vassalage. In fact asking him to do so should automatically trigger a declaration of war from him.
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Mar 5, 2021 11:11
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You can vassalise factions?  I don't think I've ever seen it. But then again I basically completely ignore diplomacy in the game
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Mar 5, 2021 11:21
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Diplomacy being bad hurts TW2 especially bad because you have a few factions where diplomacy is fairly front and centre, High Elves and The Empire, so the level of obfuscation leaves them with fairly useless campaign mechanics. I'm worried that the focus on Daemons in 3 will mean improving diplomacy will fall by the wayside, even if a Cao Cao style system of schemes and manipulation would suit Tzeentch perfectly.
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Mar 5, 2021 13:41
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Vagabong posted:Diplomacy being bad hurts TW2 especially bad because you have a few factions where diplomacy is fairly front and centre, High Elves and The Empire, so the level of obfuscation leaves them with fairly useless campaign mechanics. My hope is that the focus on daemons forces them to re-evaluate diplomacy, and maybe treat it as something that varies naturally like campaign resources (influences / geomantic web / canopic jars / whatever). Khorne seems like the kinda guy that would like you more the more units your armies have killed, or the more melee units you have, and not give a poo poo about other diplomatic factors. Favor/disfavor are still relevant, and extend far beyond the sort of ambassadorial, leader-talking-to-leader style of diplomacy they've tried to make work so far.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:50
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Zzulu posted:You can vassalise factions? I learned that early on in a Vlad campaign where I had the option to vassalise my bald failson. I ended up wiping out Mannfred's faction anyway because he sucks.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:56
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JT Jag posted:Honestly if Total Warhammer 3 is on a new engine and has updated diplomacy it could just coast on that and I'd buy it at full price It won't be but its my dream. There's a growing list of 3k features I want in Ham3
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Mar 5, 2021 15:22
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I mean new armies are awesome but really I think improved diplomacy and sieges are THE things I'm hoping for in a TWW3 Also maybe let us play with Tier 4 and 5 stuff by turn 35 and not turn 115 please
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Mar 5, 2021 18:48
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Diplomacy updates we could POTENTIALLY (but for the most case probably not) see in Hams 3: Quick Deal Reasonably likely to see as it is in both 3K and Troy. This is less important in Warhams currently given the smaller pool of diplo options and generally silo'd diplomatic groups (Elves, Empire, Orcs, etc), however it would still be very useful especially on the Big Big map. It lets you pick various options like trade agreement, non-aggression pact, etc and shows you who would agree to it and how much finessing you'll need to do it. It then lets you quickly sign the agreement or do some haggling. It actually is also very handy for certain rarer types of deals like vassalization; you might check and discover that someone is in trouble and is willing to sign over independence that you hadn't really considered, when in Warhams you'd have to check each individual nation. Half of my confederations in Warhammer occur when I'm talking to someone about something else and notice the icon is green  Liu Chong will accept outright, but it looks like Tao Qian will need just a smidge of convincing Deal breakdown When deals are made we see a numeric breakdown of the positives and negatives effecting the AIs decision making. We do see this in Warhammer for the overall faction disposition, but the reasoning behind individual decisions remains opaque aside from color. Sometimes yellow means yes, sometimes it means yes + gimme something, sometimes it means no regardless of how much you offer in exchange. Red is ALMOST always no buuuuut sometimes you can squeeze it out. Knowing how much someone likes or dislikes something is huge for the players ability to negotiate and make future plans (This guy REALLY wants a NAP which means his wars are probably not going well, This guy doesn't like me but not by a lot so if I play nicely with his captured units I bet I could broker a peace in a couple turns, etc)  My trade is not particularly valuable, but it's still enough to make this guy interested Make this work button Don't want to fiddle with negotiations? Hit this and they'll tell you what it would take, although sometimes it'll be ruinous. Handy for quick deals obviously, and also you'll occasionally find they value something highly that you weren't expecting  This will be costly  gently caress you. Advantageous treaty disposition bonus This ties into the deal breakdowns; if someone likes the idea of a Trade Agreement for example, you can use however much positive opinion they have of that deal to play around and coax some gold, items, or other treaties out of it. You can do this a bit in Warhams but it's shooting in the dark. In 3K, you also have the option of just signing the treaty and whatever positive opinion of the treaty they have remaining will translate to improved diplomatic opinion. This has a lot of impacts, signing a generous white peace deal with someone desperate can turn them into a future ally or delay the outbreak of future hostilities more than if you put the screws to them. Trading Items/Ancillaries, Trading provinces Lets you sweeten deals and get extra cash. I doubt followers or banners would be tradeable without a re-think since they're often faction specific. Province trading would be even more useful in Warhammer than 3K given the habitability system and the race-specific landmarks. How many lives have been senselessly lost in the quest for pretty borders? Trade Resources Troy has an interesting take with these. In Warhammer and other TWs trade resources are created and sold automatically. In Troy, the resources are accrued and then spent on buildings and units in a similar manner to gold in previous titles. Typically the more advanced the units and buildings the more and rarer resources it will take to create, with some also having an upkeep cost in the rarer resource. This adds a new dimension to trade, since giving someone access to say, bronze, can also give them access to enhanced military units directly as opposed to just increasing their income. Given the number of resources in Warhammer this would potentially be extremely cool or more likely be an absolute fiddly nightmare to deal with. I don't see this changing, though being able to 'sell' or 'buy' growth could be interesting. Alliances are multi-lateral Unique to 3K so far, instead of alliances being 1 to 1 treaties they are instead an entity with memberships. Members vote on whether to invite new factions to the alliance or to kick them out, and whether to declare Alliance Wars which involve all the members. This avoids some of hell-chains in Warhammer that led to the common advice of "never ally ever", although it certainly has its own set of weirdness. Also, alliances and coalitions have neat auto-generated names like 'Anti-banditry Coalition' which would be fun in Warhammer. Given this didn't appear in Troy I would say it's unlikely though.  Zhang bros gonna spread some harmony Special Diplomatic options Based on your nation or nation type, you get special options. Listing Three Kingdoms examples, Bandits can offer themselves as mercenaries to other factions, Cao Cao can coax two nations into a war, Yuan Shu can ask other nations to recognize his rightful and justified claim to Emperor which gives him a special resource he can use for recruitment and economy, and so on and so on. There's definitely a lot of potential here; Orcs having a special peace treaty that skims money and growth, Brettonians having a Errantry War declaration, I'm sure you can think up a bunch. Troy did not really have much of this, though certain characters like Agamemnon had special options for their vassals. And of course we have the Empire in base Hams.  In exchange for a promise not to diplo-annex him, the steadfast and loyal Sun Ce agrees to support Yuan Shu's claim for emperor. This seems to make a lot of people kind of angry, but it's probably nothing to worry about Some UI things that would be cool Auto-resolve balance of power on hover This is a godsend. Select a stack, hover over an enemy, and you'll see what the balance of power says  An easy win should I choose to take this fight Faded stacks Good for telling a bit more about the power of the stack at a glance, depleted units are faded out.  On paper Cao Cao has a full stack, but numbers wise he's at about 1/3 strength and should watch out. This looks better in game but could still stand to have a higher contrast
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Mar 5, 2021 19:05
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Vagabong posted:Diplomacy being bad hurts TW2 especially bad because you have a few factions where diplomacy is fairly front and centre, High Elves and The Empire, so the level of obfuscation leaves them with fairly useless campaign mechanics. Agh, don't tempt me with such things that are too perfect for this world.
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Mar 5, 2021 20:09
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Yeah if anything from 3K would fit, it's Cao Cao's scheming for Tzeench. Manipulation is his game.
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Mar 5, 2021 20:29
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Port the Chaos in the Old World board game win conditions in
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Mar 5, 2021 21:46
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What are those?
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Mar 5, 2021 23:00
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Cao Cao's diplomatic scheming is what I imagine Neferata's campaign will be centered around when she gets added next month.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:34
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Zzulu posted:You can vassalise factions? I've got about 500 hours under my belt and half a dozen finished campaigns to go with all the ones abandoned around turn 100, and I've only had the option to vassalize once that I can remember. I was playing Khalida ME and it was around turn 80 or so. I had a bunch of agreements like trade + NAP with Aranessa who loved me and also had a full 11 regions scattered north of her starting position, even so she randomly offered to become my vassal over the end turn. I accepted because this was a couple hundred hours into the game and I wanted to see what having a vassal played like. She broke the agreement and declared war on me three turns later at +130 or so relations
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Mar 6, 2021 01:35
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Yeah the vassal mechanic is poo poo.
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Mar 6, 2021 01:49
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Zzulu posted:You can vassalise factions? The only place I've ever done it was oddly in my Norse game, where I vassalized a few minor orc and iirc a beastman factions because I was flush from cash after sacking/razing most of the Empire and thought it would be fun to have a buffer against the Vampires. One orc turned on me, I beat him up and got him to agree to be my vassal again a bunch of turns later.
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Mar 6, 2021 02:02
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Khornes faction should have a skulls x blood counter system. Fill those gauges everyone.
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Mar 6, 2021 03:15
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Sasgrillo posted:Cao Cao's diplomatic scheming is what I imagine Neferata's campaign will be centered around when she gets added next month. I want this to happen but I fear that it won't. But I want it to. Even still, she'd be either horribly gimped or ridiculously overpowered with WH2's busted diplomacy
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Mar 6, 2021 04:37
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I vassalized Drycha in my most recent Orion game, because you can't confederate her unless you're playing Durthu, and I could hardly let her keep her magical forest. So I took all her poo poo, and when I captured her last settlement, it gave me the option to force vassalize her, and I thought "why not?". It hasn't backfired yet, probably because she can't really recruit a lot of units with just one minor wood elf settlement.
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Mar 6, 2021 05:43
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Torrannor posted:I vassalized Drycha in my most recent Orion game, because you can't confederate her unless you're playing Durthu, and I could hardly let her keep her magical forest. So I took all her poo poo, and when I captured her last settlement, it gave me the option to force vassalize her, and I thought "why not?". It hasn't backfired yet, probably because she can't really recruit a lot of units with just one minor wood elf settlement. Wood Elves do tend to keep to themselves so I guess it makes sense she'd never try to get bigger and challenge you.
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Mar 6, 2021 09:58
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I really like the Tomb Kings. A faction with skeletons + fancy constructs imbued with souls is just super cool. But I feel in-game they've been left in the dust by the other factions... Having such a hard limit on the more powerful units doesn't make sense in a game where every other faction can mass produce insanely powerful units. It's so easy to get a good economy going these days, especially with multiple settlements - at which point Elves, Orcs, Dark Elves, Lizardmen etc can field far more powerful units far easier than the Tomb Kings. The cool giant units like hierotitans and such aren't even the best monsters in the game (so slow...) but even so you'll struggle to field even a handful of them due to the unit caps system. You have to conquer so much territory and wait soooo long to tech each city up to tier 5 that by the time you can field multiple bone giants/hierotitans in multiple armies etc, you have already basically ensured victory in the game. I've partially solved this with mods, of course, but I wouldn't mind a Tomb Kings overhaul by CW
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Mar 6, 2021 11:47
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The growth changes really screwed over the TK and made them far less fun to play.
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Mar 6, 2021 14:59
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drat Dirty Ape posted:The growth changes really screwed over the TK and made them far less fun to play. This but for every team that doesn't have access to hordes or is skaven
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Mar 6, 2021 15:02
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Yeah this is another case of not needing an overhaul, but rather the game's core rules needing some work or an exception made. TK were great on release amd for several patches after. The growth nerf is what made them feel weak.
Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 15:02
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I kinda wish every faction had unit caps, with buildings raising said caps rather than allowing recruitment. You could allow factions to recruit a small number of their signature units from the start of the game, which would help vary the early game, and armies in the mid-game would be more varied because you couldn't just replace units entirely once you unlocked their immediate upgrade.
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Mar 6, 2021 15:27
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SFO does that and lets you pick between army caps, faction caps, or army AND faction caps through an in-game dilemma screen around turn 5. Army and faction caps is like everyone is a tomb king and core troops are always a part of your armies. It feels extra good for Empire, so you don’t end up having armies of nothing but steam tanks and demigryphs.
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Mar 6, 2021 15:39
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Communist Thoughts posted:This but for every team that doesn't have access to hordes or is skaven Wood Elves also aren't really hurt by the growth changes imho.
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Mar 6, 2021 16:16
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It's dumb pipe dream stuff but I think it'd be neat to have a Chaos layer to the map where you scheme and vie among the four gods for 'influence' that you use as currency to open portals onto the main map and wreck stuff with increasingly large armies. Could go about getting influence in different ways like encouraging wars or establishing creepy cults with their weird kinky rituals and man-harps.
Tirranek fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 16:42
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I'd like the 3k system where you recruit soldiers based on your Lords level (and maybe class) rather than buildings which are there for economics. Oh and the instant build button too, that's required. But from the growth changes it seems they want the game to be slow
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Mar 6, 2021 16:47
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Yeah I think every army should have unit caps like in SFO. It's just too easy to build the doomstack armies where you just annihilate anything the AI could ever hope to come up with against you. It allows your lesser units to be relevant much longer as well and your armies end up a lot more varied
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Mar 6, 2021 16:54
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I'm actually surprised there isn't a mod that adds in instant build. I know there's one that adds population mechanics, with racial demographics(!), which seems immensely more complicated. I mean giving over a stack to a lord and four heroes/micromanaging 5 heroes who have -build cost/construction time traits is already an overpowered but insanely more annoying way of achieving a similar effect e: also go celebrate the Vermintide 2 anniversary nerds, lets pump those Steam numbers
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Mar 6, 2021 16:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYStm2PsoF4
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Mar 6, 2021 18:19
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Gonkish posted:I want this to happen but I fear that it won't. But I want it to. I'm betting she'll be FLC so following the trend, hideously, wonderfully overpowered and broken. Nagash willing And what exactly are they trying to accomplish with the growth nerf? I play on VH so it doesn't apply, but I imagine people just hoard tier 0 and tier 1 poo poo for longer until they can crawl to the higher tier stuff. Sounds like so much fun. I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more blowback like with the port income blunder from awhile back.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:36
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Zzulu posted:Yeah I think every army should have unit caps like in SFO. It's just too easy to build the doomstack armies where you just annihilate anything the AI could ever hope to come up with against you. It allows your lesser units to be relevant much longer as well and your armies end up a lot more varied You don’t have to play with doomstacks if you don’t want to. It’s a single player game. Or play with SFO active. I’d rather CA not be too prescriptive in vanilla though. You’re not playing it right in a single player game is dumb.
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Mar 6, 2021 19:25
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Thing is the AI will doomstack and you have to counter that one way or another
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Mar 6, 2021 19:28
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there are lots of mods that only add unit caps without completely overhauling the game, Tabletop Caps is probably the best
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Mar 6, 2021 20:13
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Playing as Grimgor again is making me realize how amazing Greenskins are. The changes + DLC they got have really put them into overpowered territory. Doomdivers are just silly when fully upgraded. In a siege I can take out the main towers, the walls, and all ranged units before running out of ammunition. There really should be a statue dedicated to all those poor goblin kamikaze pilots.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:03
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Ugh another Grimgor post making me re-do a greenskins playthrough 'Ere we go again
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Mar 6, 2021 21:13
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Cardboard Fox posted:Playing as Grimgor again is making me realize how amazing Greenskins are. The changes + DLC they got have really put them into overpowered territory. When I had an all-goblin tabletop army one of my dream units was a "doom diver veteran" deep striking skirmisher unit. The brave lucky few who survive a few launches and learn to properly control their gliders.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:14
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Scott Forstall posted:You don’t have to play with doomstacks if you don’t want to. It’s a single player game. I know this but I'm always trying to play "well" which means I will build superior units if I can afford them - unfortunately in this game this turns into rather mindless doomstacks that easily roll the rather simple A.I. Other units become completely obsolete by the availability of the superior ones. If the gameplay constraints and mechanics support unit caps then you simply can't do that anymore and I've found the gameplay experience to be more fun when less units quickly become obsolete and you're instead guided/forced towards building more mixed armies... where the powerful units play a more important and pronounced role. So yeah, I usually play SFO but there are bits and bobs in there I don't really appreciate either so it's a mixed bag. Zzulu fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 21:30
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