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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The movie isn’t about the characters bonding and, like, hugging eachother. There are plenty of moments like Diana opening up to Victor about her grief, but the characters are fundamentally not united as a family or whatever. Instead, they’re all about beating up the space fascists. As it should be, Justice League is about the struggle against ANTI-LIFE. That's comic books, baby.
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Mar 31, 2021 13:08
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They have the mutual respect and camaraderie of people working together for a common cause. They're more like an activist group than a circle of friends, which is a dynamic that makes total sense for who these characters are and why they came together. It feels honest in a way that Whedon's attempt to pretend Barry and Clark have races for fun just doesn't... these guys have tremendous respect for each other but they're not gonna just hang out when business is over.
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Mar 31, 2021 13:34
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It's the power of intersectional solidarity, baby!
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Mar 31, 2021 13:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:He knew superbaby would land on that form. He knew Superbaby would land nearby, but while he was keeping tabs on the place, he couldn't help but fall in love with the rugged masculinity of young Jonathan Kent.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:06
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sethsez posted:They have the mutual respect and camaraderie of people working together for a common cause. They're more like an activist group than a circle of friends, which is a dynamic that makes total sense for who these characters are and why they came together. It feels honest in a way that Whedon's attempt to pretend Barry and Clark have races for fun just doesn't... these guys have tremendous respect for each other but they're not gonna just hang out when business is over. Makes sense that it's something Whedon can't understand.
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Mar 31, 2021 14:24
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2house2fly posted:It's the power of intersectional solidarity, baby! This is one of several reasons I loving love this film
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Mar 31, 2021 14:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The movie isn’t about the characters bonding and, like, hugging eachother. There are plenty of moments like Diana opening up to Victor about her grief, but the characters are fundamentally not united as a family or whatever. Instead, they’re all about beating up the space fascists. You can have humanity in your movie without characters laughing and hugging. I know you know that. But I don't think it's controversial to say that's not what Snyder is good at. Without it, it's a four hour slog of CGI spectacle. Like I said, Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. (Except, with his insane powers, he.. gave a lady 100,000. instead of, I dunno, changing the system that allowed her situation to happen in the first place.) I think it's pretty telling the Snyderdome is talking about man of steel, and this thread was jokingly debating if martian Manhunter was actually every character. There's just not much to Justice League but smoke and noise. And a baffingly dumb villain.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:43
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stratdax posted:You can have humanity in your movie without characters laughing and hugging. I know you know that. But I don't think it's controversial to say that's not what Snyder is good at. Without it, it's a four hour slog of CGI spectacle. Like I said, Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. (Except, with his insane powers, he.. gave a lady 100,000. instead of, I dunno, changing the system that allowed her situation to happen in the first place.) It's not telling at all. It's just the topic at hand idiot.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:47
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stratdax posted:You can have humanity in your movie without characters laughing and hugging. I know you know that. But I don't think it's controversial to say that's not what Snyder is good at. Without it, it's a four hour slog of CGI spectacle. Like I said, Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. (Except, with his insane powers, he.. gave a lady 100,000. instead of, I dunno, changing the system that allowed her situation to happen in the first place.) You missed a bunch then. Cyborg isn't just about him giving money, it's about him and his father. They've got one of the most authentic parental scenes ever for black characters. Folks here are just bathing in the after glow of getting the complete trilogy. You really think every read about BvS came with in the first weeks? Strap in, the Ayer cut is ~4 years away so we've got time.
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Mar 31, 2021 15:50
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stratdax posted:You can have humanity in your movie without characters laughing and hugging. I know you know that. But I don't think it's controversial to say that's not what Snyder is good at. Without it, it's a four hour slog of CGI spectacle. Like I said, Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. (Except, with his insane powers, he.. gave a lady 100,000. instead of, I dunno, changing the system that allowed her situation to happen in the first place.) The film’s ‘emotional heart’ lies in their intensely personal stories, and it’s Victor’s in particular that the film turns on. The climax of the story, the very fate of the world, is structured around him accepting that beauty can arise from horrific trauma and loss.
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Mar 31, 2021 16:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The movie isn’t about the characters bonding and, like, hugging eachother.
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Mar 31, 2021 16:10
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that's what Batman wants it to be about though. He is literally replacing his dead family with the Justice League at the end of the film. There's kind of a tragedy to it. Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman seem to come to terms with their family in various ways. This really is all that Bruce has. Yeah that's definitely the through line, family is what you make of it. Batman is so hungry for redemption in this, I love it.
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Mar 31, 2021 16:14
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stratdax posted:You can have humanity in your movie without characters laughing and hugging. I know you know that. But I don't think it's controversial to say that's not what Snyder is good at. Without it, it's a four hour slog of CGI spectacle. Like I said, Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. (Except, with his insane powers, he.. gave a lady 100,000. instead of, I dunno, changing the system that allowed her situation to happen in the first place.) It would be sick if, had another Justice League movie happened, Cyborg starts doing this bit by bit and you see it reflected in like Metropolis specifically being like the quasi-futurstic/everyone's doing relatively pretty well in place of that 90s (?) Superman animated series, like make it an actual city of the future in a good way and not a tech douchebag way. Like have Superman's influence on people be less direct but have way more powerful effects on the direction of the world like Batman's optimism in Snyder's Justice League and stuff. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 16:52
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stratdax posted:Cyborg was played up as the emotional heart of the movie... And there was barely anything there. * Vic breaks down sobbing for a moment because he's exceptional and his dad just does not show up for any of it. * Works through his own grief/pain throughout * resolves his issue with his father and realizes he's not broken. And says there's nothing there. Neo Rasa posted:It would be sick if... FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 17:18
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FilthyImp posted:I don't see how someone watches a movie where: For sure. I do understand the idea that 4 hours is a lot of time to do more but it's not infinite you know, and I feel like compared to most other ensemble super hero films Justice League gives each of its heroes several good human/character building moments.
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Mar 31, 2021 17:32
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It’s all about being a strike force until Batman dates Diana and impregnates Lois
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Mar 31, 2021 17:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Apparently 'Apocalypse' in its original meaning isn't the end of the world, but revealed knowledge. Given Darkseid's whole thing, Apokalips is probably very much a deliberate reference. The good and evil planets at opposite ends of the universe in the Fourth World cosmology are New Genesis and Apokolips, named for the first and last books of the Bible respectively - "Revelation," as mentioned, is a more literal translation of the word "Apocalypse." Darkseid's association with the Greek letter Ω is also a biblical reference. He also calls himself "the revelation" at one point. I'm still not sure what a Tiger-Force is though.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:13
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FilthyImp posted:I don't see how someone watches a movie where: It had all the required surface beats, but didn't have any more pathos than that. Because, as I said, it's one of Snyder's weaknesses. I think that's fairly well accepted criticism of Snyder? Cut the pointless superzombie vs the league fight if you want to save time. Anyway I didn't mind the idea of Cyborg's design. Maybe too many little plates and greebles (there was already a lot of that with the parademons and Steppenwolf), but I think being smoother would look too close to Iron Man. His design made him look like an actual cyborg - especially at the hips and legs. No way there's anything human under there.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:27
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stratdax posted:It had all the required surface beats, but didn't have any more pathos than that. Because, as I said, it's one of Snyder's weaknesses. I think that's fairly well accepted criticism of Snyder? Cut the pointless superzombie vs the league fight if you want to save time.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:29
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stratdax posted:I think that's fairly well accepted criticism of Snyder? So is Snyder being a superNaziobjectofacist
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Mar 31, 2021 18:30
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Martman posted:It is ok to just express your opinions however you want and not appeal to made up nerd consensus. B-b-b-but the people said!!!!!!
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Mar 31, 2021 18:34
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Guy A. Person posted:For sure. I do understand the idea that 4 hours is a lot of time to do more but it's not infinite you know, and I feel like compared to most other ensemble super hero films Justice League gives each of its heroes several good human/character building moments. This might be the problem. Other ensembles movies have the benefit of each character already having their own movies to flesh them out. Snyder was basically forced to give a quick highlight reel of the backstory of Vic and Barry because DC doesn't have their poo poo together. If it was planned out, Cyborg and Flash could have been teased in Justice League and actually gotten their own movies to flesh then out shortly after. Instead Snyder basically had to say "fine, I'll do it myself". I mean how long has Flash been in development hell for? VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:So is Snyder being a superNaziobjectofacist Really? I don't know much about Snyder but from what little I know he seems like a nice person. stratdax fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 18:34
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Lots of movies have like, ten characters! Without ever introducing them in a previous movie. It's crazy I know.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:35
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I had to walk out of oceans 11. They really expected us to care about all these folks in an hour and a half.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:43
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stratdax posted:Really? Oh my sweet summer child...
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Mar 31, 2021 18:46
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Martman posted:Lots of movies have like, ten characters! Without ever introducing them in a previous movie. It's crazy I know. ZSJL is longer than Seven Samurai and who knows how many samurai they gotta introduce in that movie! It's nuts.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:46
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stratdax posted:It had all the required surface beats, but didn't have any more pathos than that. Because, as I said, it's one of Snyder's weaknesses. I think that's fairly well accepted criticism of Snyder? I don't know that it is, actually. Usually I hear Snyder criticized for going too heavy on the pathos: the bombastic imagery, Superdad disappearing into the tornado, "Martha," etc.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:47
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Bongo Bill posted:I'm still not sure what a Tiger-Force is though. Given Darkseid's 'wants to be the only will' theme, possibly Schopenhauer's conception of Will as the underlying nature of the cosmos, though I don't know that the take is especially Schopenhauerian.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:47
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Boy I sure did enjoy each of the films about every character from The Lord of the Rings, and Saving Private Ryan, and Ocean's Eleven, and Pulp Fiction, and The Magnificent Seven, and, and, and....
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Mar 31, 2021 18:50
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Mar 31, 2021 18:53
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I'm certainly of the opinion that this movie had a bit less heart and humanity than BvS; Batman as a Superman cultist is fun, for example, but not as fun as him trying to kill Superman and then having an epiphany. I think Cyborg's story is undercut a bit by beginning with a long exposition dump more than anything else. I actually feel a bit more for Barry despite Victor having clearly way more plight, as Barry's story is conveyed more organically. Plus a guy who works poo poo jobs and buries his emotions in Irony because he's afraid of actually being earnest and trying is both a bit more relatable and feels like a commentary on That Other Company. It somehow just occurred to me that the bulk of the movie takes place over ~24 hours, that's pretty crazy!
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Mar 31, 2021 18:55
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that's what Batman wants it to be about though. He is literally replacing his dead family with the Justice League at the end of the film. There's kind of a tragedy to it. Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman seem to come to terms with their family in various ways. This really is all that Bruce has. Kind of a running theme in all the Batman stories I like is that Batman will never find peace or happiness but, through his actions, others will. Cyborg faces a similar storyline that Superman does but he is able to find peace far sooner than Superman ever did because Batman was there to find him and help him. I don’t know why but I’ve always found that the most interesting part of the character.
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Mar 31, 2021 18:56
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teagone posted:Oh my sweet summer child... The internet was a mistake. teagone posted:Boy I sure did enjoy each of the films about every character from The Lord of the Rings, and Saving Private Ryan, and Ocean's Eleven, and Pulp Fiction, and The Magnificent Seven, and, and, and.... That's my point. Like I said previously, I was more invested in the characters of LOTR within the first 20 minutes than I was in any of the characters of JL in four hours. I already said that! That's my problem with this movie!
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Mar 31, 2021 18:58
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stratdax posted:This might be the problem. Other ensembles movies have the benefit of each character already having their own movies to flesh them out. Snyder was basically forced to give a quick highlight reel of the backstory of Vic and Barry because DC doesn't have their poo poo together. If it was planned out, Cyborg and Flash could have been teased in Justice League and actually gotten their own movies to flesh then out shortly after. Instead Snyder basically had to say "fine, I'll do it myself". I mean how long has Flash been in development hell for? Well, not all ensemble movies, just exclusively MCU Avengers movies, not like X-Men or even the MCU's own Guardians of the Galaxy. And while this of course has become the common understanding of how to properly set up an ensemble, I reject the idea that you should need to see other movies to fully "get" what's going on with the other characters. Like I had no interest in seeing Thor 1 before Avengers but I kind of got the Thor's deal, despite him not really having much of an arc (in Avengers 1 he is mostly just an alien god who hates his brother a lot). And of course Black Widow, Hawkeye and Nick Fury didn't have movies to offload their characterization. But also, what you describe was supposed to be the plan, just slightly reversed for the MCU method. They had pre-JL setup movies for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, while Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman were supposed to have movies released shortly after Justice League. Aquaman still came out but the other two were shelved after Justice League's restructuring and poor reception which can't really be blamed on Snyder (not sure how much of the surrounding drama you followed but needless to say basically any plans made before that went up in smoke). I think Snyder was smart to put in full character arcs for the three new folk and still give some strong characterization for the other 3, even if he did believe they would each have a solo movie within the year. YMMV of course on how well you liked them, although I don't really agree that characterization is "one of Snyder's weak points", I think Man of Steel is easily one of the better character studies of a super hero done in the modern era (I'm talking film-wise specifically).
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Mar 31, 2021 18:59
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teagone posted:Boy I sure did enjoy each of the films about every character from The Lord of the Rings, and Saving Private Ryan, and Ocean's Eleven, and Pulp Fiction, and The Magnificent Seven, and, and, and.... And Superman, and Batman, and
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Mar 31, 2021 19:01
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It's OK if a movie is long. It's less OK if you obviously could have cut some bloat or repetitive scenes, which this definitely has. The ending chapter is tacked on, there's at least one scene of Steppenwolf talking to DeSaad where he's repeating what he said in the previous scene to DeSaad and adding nothing, it's just not a disciplined cut. The MMH stuff I could take or leave, the subtext of MMH being a huge useless dork is pretty funny but it's just kind of whatever. A Knightmare movie might be fun but not if characters are going to act like nothing else in the scene is happening while they monologue on each other. That felt like amateur fan film hour. I would generally criticize BvS and Justice League as having convoluted plotting. If BvS Super Actually Real Cut edition needs another 30 minutes to make the plot make sense, the plot wasn't that good to begin with. Justice League spends a lot of time with Chekhov's Laser and it ends with what has become typical Snyder ham. So yeah Justice League is very good compared to Josstice League, no high bar there, and I think better than BvS. But I think there's at least a 3 hour 30 minute cut in there that would have been significantly better.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:02
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Sodomy Hussein posted:If BvS Super Actually Real Cut edition needs another 30 minutes to make the plot make sense, the plot wasn't that good to begin with. This is, again, kind of reversing the cause and effect here. With BvS Snyder didn't go "wait wait wait, let me add in this extra footage to 'make this make sense' (?*)", he had a fully cut and approved movie that was mandated to cut 30 minutes shortly before release by the studio, who wanted to squeeze in more showings based on the strength of pre-sales (I can't remember exactly when this mandate came but I want to say it was something obscene like, within 2 months of release). I'm sure it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think about a movie you love and think about how damaging gutting 30 minutes (especially at a rush) can be to the overall quality. I do agree that there's probably a solid 3 hour 30 minute Justice League cut, although I think context is important to keep in mind. This was basically the "super indulgent add in everything for yourself and the fans cause you won't likely get to touch this property ever again" extended special edition home release of the movie. For one big thing the Epilogue would have probably been greatly cut down from 20+ minutes and peppered throughout the credits, leaving only a relative easy ~10 minutes to drop from the rest of the film. * from what I recall the complaints about BvS theatrical, or at least the ones "fixed" by the Ultimate edition, had more to do with pacing, editing, and general tone. The Ultimate cut is better paced by letting the movie breath more, has fewer "abrupt" cuts (again, 30 minutes of footage goes a long way) and adds in some subplots that give Clark more to do, make Lois more proactive, and make Lex's evil plotting more robust
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Mar 31, 2021 19:14
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stratdax posted:The internet was a mistake. The day you get labeled a cultist and/or chud for liking different cape poo poo made by who some claim is a xenophobic objectivist randian fascist is the day you realize people be broke brained as gently caress over cape poo poo, lol.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:42
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I wish people would stop acting like there's some sort of magical runtime that every movie needs to be or that certain plots only require a certain amount of time. I just watched a movie called Underwater that's a tight 90 minutes and literally kicks off with near-zero character development and it was perfectly acceptable. It actually could have been cut down even harder or alternatively they could have added 15 minutes at the front to get to know the characters and each of those decisions would have changed the overall movie, it's fine. Having said that, liking LotR characters at minute 20 is mostly a matter of being more invested in fantasy archtypes then the superhero ones, since at minute 20 you've basically only gotten to know Frodo and Gandalf as "a friendly Hobbit" and "a friendly Wizard". Zero "character development" there beyond them being happy to see each other and discussing Bilbo's b-day.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:42
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stratdax posted:That's my point. Like I said previously, I was more invested in the characters of LOTR within the first 20 minutes than I was in any of the characters of JL in four hours. I already said that! That's my problem with this movie! I mean, I guess that's fair? I just don't agree. [edit] As an aside, speaking of LOTR, remember when a MoS teaser used a track from the LOTR score as its cue? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9snkTfM33g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJCo4Ce6PKY teagone fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 19:46
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