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live with fruit posted:At what point does Wakanda go from being a celebration of African cultures to racist? Yeah, kinda weird that Afrofuturism is now racist for some.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:25
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Speaking of racism, here's a whole article entitled "No, that wasn't Okoyoe who Bucky ran into": https://www.thewrap.com/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-is-bucky-working-for-black-panther-character/ I don't know anything about this site but it does give an idea of what Marvel is dealing with in general fandom.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:25
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You mean people confusing two relatively minor characters with similar roles? I'm pretty sure that's a problem with media in general, and not just this one project.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:36
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tsob posted:Isn't African-Wakandan kind of redundant. Wakanda is in Africa, so presumably it'd just be Wakandan. Calling someone African-Wakandan would be like calling them French-European, or even maybe American-American. Also, I'm not sure how funny that'd be, since someone bouncing hard off the difference between African-American and Wakandan is basically how we got Killmonger. Like the whole point of Black Panther is that Wakanda is hardcore isolationist and refuses entry and recognition to anyone without the correct cultural signifiers- Killmonger's glowing Vibranium tattoo being what makes all the difference. That presumably applies just as much to their African neighbours, especially since they act unilterally within them using drone warfare and advanced power armour technology- a big point not exactly shied away from in Black Panther is that Wakanda is very much like the US.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:38
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I like the actress who plays Okoye, please tell me she’s not super chud like Shuri’s is.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:39
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Afrofuturism is one thing - the most advanced African nation having a monarchy where succession is determined by combat, and their military uses spears, shields and war rhinos, that's something else. I wasn't wild about the Mandela impression either but I think that was a personal choice by Boseman.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Like the whole point of Black Panther is that Wakanda is hardcore isolationist and refuses entry and recognition to anyone without the correct cultural signifiers- Killmonger's glowing Vibranium tattoo being what makes all the difference. That presumably applies just as much to their African neighbours, especially since they act unilterally within them using drone warfare and advanced power armour technology- a big point not exactly shied away from in Black Panther is that Wakanda is very much like the US. If the country is so isolationist that non-Wakandans by birth rarely enter then there's even less reason to differentiate the population and suppose there are enough non-Wakandan people there for anyone to view them as needing categorisation for census purposes, cultural recognition etc. If anything, people from Wakanda living in other African countries would be the ones needing differentiation, so Wakanda-Nigerian, or what have you.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:46
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Ravel posted:Afrofuturism is one thing - the most advanced African nation having a monarchy where succession is determined by combat, and their military uses spears, shields and war rhinos, that's something else. I wasn't wild about the Mandela impression either but I think that was a personal choice by Boseman. T'Challa's accent isn't based on Mandela, it's based on John Kani, who's also South African. And Okoye is not a minor character.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:52
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Ravel posted:Afrofuturism is one thing - the most advanced African nation having a monarchy where succession is determined by combat, and their military uses spears, shields and war rhinos, that's something else. I wasn't wild about the Mandela impression either but I think that was a personal choice by Boseman. The American Military was using trained military horses in Afghanistan, aditionally the Wakandans use spears and shields the same way several aliens in MCU use weapons like that. Using their culture and turning it into futuristic weapons, beams, force-fields and such so that it's both ceremonial and functional, which is standard sci-fi futurism anyway and seen amongst the Asgardians and the Kree and Thanos' armies. Like, if I could make a bagpipe into a beam weapon that also plays music I'd do that in a heartbeat, or could dress up as an ancient celtic warrior whilst wielding weapons that fire beams and shields that create force-fields I would. I'm not going to say it isn't potentially awkward, but of those only the succession determined by combat is particularly egregious, and to be honest that also feels like standard fantasy/sci-fi thing, even for elves and such.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:53
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live with fruit posted:T'Challa's accent isn't based on Mandela, it's based on John Kani, who's also South African. I'm South African. The accent is unmistakablely influenced by Mandela. Looking up interviews with Boseman he did use speeches to influence his accent.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:56
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Ravel posted:Afrofuturism is one thing - the most advanced African nation having a monarchy where succession is determined by combat, and their military uses spears, shields and war rhinos, that's something else. I wasn't wild about the Mandela impression either but I think that was a personal choice by Boseman. Those tribal aspects are part of their heritage and the Afrofuturism aesthetic. If they just made Wakanda be a generic advanced nation but everyone is black then I think they would be accused of cultural whitewashing instead.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:02
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Ravel posted:Afrofuturism is one thing - the most advanced African nation having a monarchy where succession is determined by combat, and their military uses spears, shields and war rhinos, that's something else. I wasn't wild about the Mandela impression either but I think that was a personal choice by Boseman. Look I can only guess what you’re specific beefs are, but Wakanda was created and defined by asking African artists and designers how they think African society would look if it were advanced enough beyond normal progression. So it’s like a bunch of African people whose work in art or African culture is significant enough that they were tapped to be considered an expert on it, and now some rando on the internet is saying they are racist because... African people should evolve beyond “barbaric” iconography like spears or animal worship? That’s an extremely Anglo-centric ideal of what “advanced” might mean and honestly the idea that black and African artists don’t know what a futuristic African society would be like comes off as racist, or at least implies that you think these people are ignorant of their own culture.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:06
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Eh, given Wakanda's whole deal in the comics at least giving them science-magic Vibranium spears, shields and clubs gives them a recognisable aesthetic, if they used like modern weapons they might be accused of just falling into the African militant/terrorist stereotype, and the MCU has way too loving much tactical military porn as it is. Been compared to an African version of the old sci-fi movie deal where 'advanced' European-derived societies live in crystal spires and wear togas like Greek gods.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:11
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"It's racist to portray an advanced society that isn't white." ~ goons
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Apr 3, 2021 17:29
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Bust Rodd posted:That’s an extremely Anglo-centric ideal of what “advanced” might mean and honestly the idea that black and African artists don’t know what a futuristic African society would be like comes off as racist, or at least implies that you think these people are ignorant of their own culture. Afrofuturism in terms of the architecture, urban planning, and fashion is fine. There are no modern African political philosophy commentators seriously advocating monarchy or succession by combat. I doubt that African military strategists are advocating for bare feet and war rhinos either. Most of this comes off as exoticisation and colonial, and people said so at the time. There was a lot of African discourse complaining about how Killmonger undermined black radicalism too. But the point is that most of the problems here are with the source material - Wakanda as a vague African pastiche of cultures, Sokovia as a pastiche of Eastern European stereotypes, and now Madripoor as the South East Asian crime city.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:31
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Ravel posted:people said so at the time. Cite some of these people
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Apr 3, 2021 17:33
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Sokovia and Madripoor are nowhere near as important to the source material as Wakanda, though.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Eh, given Wakanda's whole deal in the comics at least giving them science-magic Vibranium spears, shields and clubs gives them a recognisable aesthetic, if they used like modern weapons they might be accused of just falling into the African militant/terrorist stereotype, and the MCU has way too loving much tactical military porn as it is. Speak in Shakespearean English*
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Apr 3, 2021 17:36
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Eh, given Wakanda's whole deal in the comics at least giving them science-magic Vibranium spears, shields and clubs gives them a recognisable aesthetic, if they used like modern weapons they might be accused of just falling into the African militant/terrorist stereotype, and the MCU has way too loving much tactical military porn as it is. True, nothing stops them from building tanks and organizing an imperialistic military proper. But they chose not to because the reality is that Wakanda don't stand a chance against countries who wrote the book for undermining the biggest powers and humbling so hard it destroys their cultural identity.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:46
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My biggest complaint with this latest episode was how much plot they're trying to stuff into 40 minutes. This could've been the one example of a show letting itself breathe to sort of soak in all the new stuff that's revealed about the universe, even if this whole thing might end up feeling like a 6 hour movie. Someone else is making super soldier serum, but is unknown where they are, and we need to find them There's a dude named the Shadow Broker Baron Zemo is basically Batman There's a whole country/city-state? of black market/underworld goons We found the super soldier serum in like 8 minutes of real time, despite the characters traveling from Berlin to Indonesia in ??? amount of time passing. Almost no suspense or drama to it, being almost laughably easy. Sharon Carter is back and she's Liara from Mass Effect 2 (not so subtly?) Super soldier serum guy and his lab goes boom Getting from the top plot point to the bottom one in one episode just felt like.. a lot. I'll also kind of echo what other people are saying that Sam is almost in the backseat of his own show. He's not really given much to do except sort of mope and be the comic foil to the Bucky cinematic universe. The embers are there for him to stand up and be the icon that embodies Captain America more than the current guy, but the road to that Fireworks Factory is taking a detour into 24 plot town.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:50
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gyrobot posted:True, nothing stops them from building tanks and organizing an imperialistic military proper. But they chose not to because the reality is that Wakanda don't stand a chance against countries who wrote the book for undermining the biggest powers and humbling so hard it destroys their cultural identity. I'm going to assume you mean America, but that really doesn't seem to describe America. Which was already a big power by the time it humbled anyone to anything even approaching that degree. I don't even know which big power you think America destroyed the cultural identity of, because the only nations whose culture America destroyed are natives really. America's cultural identity is basically built off European identities too.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:52
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tsob posted:I'm going to assume you mean America, but that really doesn't seem to describe America. Which was already a big power by the time it humbled anyone to anything even approaching that degree. I don't even know which big power you think America destroyed the cultural identity of, because the only nations whose culture America destroyed are natives really. America's cultural identity is basically built off European identities too. To most Americans, the Middle East’s cultural identity is literally Aladdin and 9/11, that’s sort of what I assumed they meant
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Apr 3, 2021 17:56
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Wasn't the point that the border tribes had to appear modest to keep up the rouse but were still decked out in high vibranium tech? Plus, Killmonger's whole plan is sending Wakanda's crazy advanced technology out to their War Dogs so they can start a global revolution.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:57
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Bust Rodd posted:To most Americans, the Middle East’s cultural identity is literally Aladdin and 9/11, that’s sort of what I assumed they meant Oh right, I assumed he meant humbling big powers. Not taking on big powers, and humbling others as separate things. That said, you're still right but if anything, the Middle East has rather humbled the much bigger power of America.
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Apr 3, 2021 17:59
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tsob posted:I'm going to assume you mean America, but that really doesn't seem to describe America. Which was already a big power by the time it humbled anyone to anything even approaching that degree. I don't even know which big power you think America destroyed the cultural identity of, because the only nations whose culture America destroyed are natives really. America's cultural identity is basically built off European identities too. I'm pretty sure they mean the way the Europeans at large treated the rest of Africa, which is a more reasonable stance I think? But also Wakanda is in the same vein as any futurism where they show ancient culture being rebuilt with future science for aesthetic reasons. Again, if I could have my cultural heritage be used as the basis for aesthetic techno-futurism I'd be plenty happy with it, and from what I remember several people were very happy with Wakandan's portrayal of culture and aesthetic.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:02
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tsob posted:I'm going to assume you mean America, but that really doesn't seem to describe America. Which was already a big power by the time it humbled anyone to anything even approaching that degree. I don't even know which big power you think America destroyed the cultural identity of, because the only nations whose culture America destroyed are natives really. America's cultural identity is basically built off European identities too. The Chinese actually, the Opium War basically killed the Chinese monarchy because the Brits and colonial powers wants access to the unique resources but was unable to penetrate the market because China was self sufficient so they flooded the market with drugs. In this case, a Hydra controlled Shield would have leveled insight carriers over Wakanda and just drown the nation in compromised nations soldiers being sent as cannon fodder as every dirty tactic from the CIA playbook is used to take that precious Vibranium
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Apr 3, 2021 18:03
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Captain America flinging a frisbee around doesn't make any sense at all either. The spears and the like are fine, it's the MCU, they're just super spears or whatever. Where Wakanda get's unfortunate is the implications of hereditary rule and tribal fight-to-the-death politics. A king dying, and his hereditary heir to the throne having to prove himself in savage combat is....uhhhhh. There's a reason very few Kings and Queens have any real power these days. Countries with hereditary rule either fall into power vacuums, are inherited by some dipshit, or are inherited by some dipshit who gets removed creating a power vacuum. Whatever happens, the state inevitably collapses in on itself and you end up with North Korea. Wakanda doesn't happen as long as Wakanda has a king. They are walking a tightrope with some problematic source material though with Wakanda, Sorokvia and Madripoor, and I don't really know how you tell Killmonger's story in a world where he can, like, stand for election or something. Even making the first waterfall fight with mountain monkey clan guy a more ceremonial thing wouldn't work since you need that to establish the rules for how Killmonger takes the throne. If your telling stories written in the 70s, some outdated world building is going to seep through.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:03
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At least Wakanda has the argument that the king is also the Black Panther, a mystical ancestral super hero who protects the nation personally and directly, so the single combat almost feels like a proof of capability to be their super hero protector, and from there the right to rule. It's still not totally great, but I can see how it'd have stuck around given the circumstances, if being the King/Queen of England let you wield Excalibur and become a great and powerful warrior I can imagine a ceremony to determine which of the royal family are worthy of carrying such a blade requiring proof of the skill to use it in defense of the realm. Now I am imagining something with Captain Britain and the Royal Family. Perhaps they could've made it so that T'Challa's ancestors were not the sole family who held the position of Wakandan Ruler/Protector to better present what that ceremony is actually about. In theory it seems that the leaders of each of the tribes that formed Wakanda is meant to be allowed to challenge at any time and rule (as well as any member of their families), likely from however they originally came together and determined which tribe would lead the collective whole in the formation of Wakanda. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 18:07
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This is the intersection of fantasy politics and real world politics and that was mentioned upthread. Is it still problematic when you factor in the Royal bloodline is guided by magical drug induced visions of their ancestors which allow them preternatural wisdom and council, which is what has lead Wakanda to be a modern utopia? The text is very clearly indicating that in this world the monarchy is a GOOD thing and it would be MORE backwards to ignore the magical Mulan ghost council that solves all your problems.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:10
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Lord_Magmar posted:from what I remember several people were very happy with Wakandan's portrayal of culture and aesthetic. In the context where Africa is rarely shown on screen at all in huge blockbusters, let alone languages like Xhosa or pre-colonisation architecture, it's a huge step forward. In the context where people are discussing a media trend where non-western spaces are collapsed into vague pastiches of cultures, then Wakanda is not a huge step forward.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:13
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Bust Rodd posted:This is the intersection of fantasy politics and real world politics and that was mentioned upthread. Is it still problematic when you factor in the Royal bloodline is guided by magical drug induced visions of their ancestors which allow them preternatural wisdom and council, which is what has lead Wakanda to be a modern utopia? The text is very clearly indicating that in this world the monarchy is a GOOD thing and it would be MORE backwards to ignore the magical Mulan ghost council that solves all your problems. Is it though? I feel like there was a decent amount of dissent in Wakanda between Nakia and M'Baku and that's before Killmonger came in and blew the lid off of everything. And then you have the Queen Mother and living counsel basically protecting their power in an obvious, smug way. It'll be interesting to see how things play out now that Boseman has passed but it felt like seeds were at least planted that would lead to T'Challa eventually dissolving the monarchy.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:19
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tsob posted:You mean people confusing two relatively minor characters with similar roles? I'm pretty sure that's a problem with media in general, and not just this one project. My mom gets Ryan Renolds and Ben Afleck confused and I have trouble putting into words how angry that makes me.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:19
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live with fruit posted:Is it though? I feel like there was a decent amount of dissent in Wakanda between Nakia and M'Baku and that's before Killmonger came in and blew the lid off of everything. And then you have the Queen Mother and living counsel basically protecting their power in an obvious, smug way. It'll be interesting to see how things play out now that Boseman has passed but it felt like seeds were at least planted that would lead to T'Challa eventually dissolving the monarchy. Plus you had the secret of T'chaka murdering his brother. Yeah, I don't think the narrative was quite as matter of factly pro-monarchy. Hell their system was followed for Killmonger to take power and nearly lead them into global war. They didn't dissolve the monarchy and adopt democracy in the epilogue, but I think there was an overall message of "time for change."
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Apr 3, 2021 18:29
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Has Ayo, the Wakandan at the end, done anything in the MCU or could they just not get Okoye or Nakia.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:52
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PASS THE MASH posted:Has Ayo, the Wakandan at the end, done anything in the MCU or could they just not get Okoye or Nakia. She was T'Challa's bodyguard who stared down Black Widow in Civil War leading to him joke that he'd like to see that fight, was with T'Challa at the UN in the end stinger of Black Panther, was defending Shuri and Vision in Infinity War. She's been ever present as basically second behind Okoye but hasn't had any real personal characterization that I can recall.
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Apr 3, 2021 19:03
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STAC Goat posted:She was T'Challa's bodyguard who stared down Black Widow in Civil War leading to him joke that he'd like to see that fight, was with T'Challa at the UN in the end stinger of Black Panther, was defending Shuri and Vision in Infinity War. She's been ever present as basically second behind Okoye but hasn't had any real personal characterization that I can recall. Woulda been the bodyguard of T'Challa's dad too, and presumably Okoye and Nakia being in command of their respective divisions means that she would most likely have the time/opportunity and motivation to avenge T'Chaka.
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Apr 3, 2021 19:10
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From a "lets not spend more money than we have to" perspective I imagine any of the other mentioned actors would have cost more and this still gets across that Wakanda is getting involved just as well as either of those two being there would have. Personally I groaned a bit at that ending cause this series is already feeling a little bit fragmented with nearly every aspect being rushed or not getting much development so adding another storyline seems somewhat unnecessary.
thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 19:20
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Arist posted:Cite some of these people https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-blackpanther-africa-colonialism-wakanda-marvel-0228-20180227-story.html https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/3/13/wakanda-is-not-african-and-thats-ok https://africasacountry.com/2018/02/africa-is-a-country-in-wakanda It was an argument several African writers voiced at the time tbh, not necessarily attacking it whole hardheartedly but emphasizing that it is best understood as an African utopia of the Black American diasporic imagination that (while valuable to African-Americans) still falls into some of the traps of the Africa of the Western imagination. There's a whole clutch of contemporary speculative fiction writers from Africa writing stories of what the future can be, rather than could have been, that have quietly raised an eyebrow or two at Black Panther's vision of a futuristic Africa. This quote from Shadreck Chikoti in an interview he gave a while back probably sums that whole attitude up: quote:Wakanda is a futuristic country in Africa but it is not in the future. It has been isolated from the rest of the world for centuries but its inhabitants have been in touch with the rest of the world and this includes the former Black Panther himself, who even had to birth a son in a foreign country. It is no wonder that the ingenuity of the Wakandans themselves allows them to incorporate different cultures from across the continent to form their own cocktail of a culture. Question is; why do we continue to imagine that the future will completely be devoid of elements from the present?
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Apr 3, 2021 19:23
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STAC Goat posted:She was T'Challa's bodyguard who stared down Black Widow in Civil War leading to him joke that he'd like to see that fight, was with T'Challa at the UN in the end stinger of Black Panther, was defending Shuri and Vision in Infinity War. She's been ever present as basically second behind Okoye but hasn't had any real personal characterization that I can recall. Also in the comics the character is canonically gay, so it will be interesting to see if that gets a reference on the TV show.
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Apr 3, 2021 19:31
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It seems likely that Wakanda getting involved is part of Bucky's plan. He needs Zemo now but he's still the guy who framed him for murdering T'Chaka and re-psycho assassined him so he's not going to want him running free after he leads them to the Flag Smasher. Plus, he owes Wakanda a huge debt so of course he's going to give them Zemo.
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Apr 3, 2021 19:40
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