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bob dobbs is dead posted:ck2 got to a great state literally 6 years after first release. expect something of that nature I will not stand for this, it was in a great state basically right from the beginning, or at least soon after (started playing about a month before Sword of Islam came out).
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Apr 29, 2021 07:38
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Finally gave barbaric despoilers a go after hearing it was a middling to bad trait and I kind of love it. Had a very fun interaction by rushing my neighbor down, almost doubling my population by raiding his capital and then having it explode from the doomsday origin a couple seconds after declaring a truce.
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Apr 29, 2021 07:54
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Urban Sorcerer posted:Finally gave barbaric despoilers a go after hearing it was a middling to bad trait and I kind of love it. Had a very fun interaction by rushing my neighbor down, almost doubling my population by raiding his capital and then having it explode from the doomsday origin a couple seconds after declaring a truce. With the pop growth changes, barbaric despoiler is now a top tier pick.
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Apr 29, 2021 07:55
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It doesn't do anything that NilAq doesn't, with the exception of getting access to it before your first ascension perk (and/or trading a civic slot for another perk). It's up to the player to decide if they need it that early. But yes, it's amazingly strong as the growth penalty in 3.0 is degenerate. Even if you have 3x the planets than your neighbor, its probable that he's growing pops at 3x your rate if you keep pruning him. And that's without factoring in optimal snowball strats.
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Apr 29, 2021 08:54
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I don't understand the emphasis on strategies to counteract the pop growth tapering off at around 2K pops. Haven't you just won the game at that point?
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Apr 29, 2021 08:58
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't understand the emphasis on strategies to counteract the pop growth tapering off at around 2K pops. Haven't you just won the game at that point? I think the emphasis will die off as people get used to the new state of the game.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:00
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't understand the emphasis on strategies to counteract the pop growth tapering off at around 2K pops. Haven't you just won the game at that point? The idea is that it actually let's you get ahead, I think. Which just relying on natural pop growth doesn't do nearly as well since the rework.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:01
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Yami Fenrir posted:The idea is that it actually let's you get ahead, I think. Which just relying on natural pop growth doesn't do nearly as well since the rework. Why wouldn't you just conquer their planets rather than loving around with raiding stance, then? You can just migrate all their pops to your core worlds pretty easily, if that's where you want them.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:08
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Cease to Hope posted:Why wouldn't you just conquer their planets rather than loving around with raiding stance, then? You can just migrate all their pops to your core worlds pretty easily, if that's where you want them. Because then you can no longer take advantage of their increased pop growth. Your empire suffers from increasing growth penalties the larger you are, if you keep a small empire around that you can regularly raid, you can get more pops over time than simply conquering their worlds.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:11
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't understand the emphasis on strategies to counteract the pop growth tapering off at around 2K pops. Haven't you just won the game at that point? Interesting number to bring up, has anyone mentioned 2k as a qualitative threshold or is it just a ballpark figure you puled out of your hat? My last slaver game ended with pops needing high 600's worth of growth, which means under 1.2k pops. And that's after basically abducting non-stop all game, although I will admit I could have been more optimal in shaping my worlds to 'game' the growth (I couldn't be hosed, honestly) and/or also remembering to declare war on multiple victims as I kept forgetting. So that's relatively aggressive gaming of the system until the crisis is over, and tbqh my natural pop growth felt like nil after the first two raids. Home system + 2 guaranteed habitable worlds filled up asap, and I only ever had ~3 worlds growing pops at any given time due to the race of incoming pops vs techs to allow previously-uninhabitable planets to be used. I could probably fire up the save to look at the capital to see if its growth is actually nil, or just being pushed to it via emigration. Cease to Hope posted:Why wouldn't you just conquer their planets rather than loving around with raiding stance, then? You can just migrate all their pops to your core worlds pretty easily, if that's where you want them. You're right in that you probably *should* capture a few planets here and there, just so you have more space to shove all your pops, but that's capturing things for housing rather than pops, if that makes sense.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:20
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Release as vassal -> wait for their pops to replenish -> reconquer?
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Apr 29, 2021 09:28
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Serephina posted:Interesting number to bring up, has anyone mentioned 2k as a qualitative threshold or is it just a ballpark figure you puled out of your hat? My last slaver game ended with pops needing high 600's worth of growth, which means under 1.2k pops. And that's after basically abducting non-stop all game, although I will admit I could have been more optimal in shaping my worlds to 'game' the growth (I couldn't be hosed, honestly) and/or also remembering to declare war on multiple victims as I kept forgetting. 2K is about the point where I found that no matter what I did, growing pops was no longer practical at all. It slowed down before that. But that doesn't make raiding more productive than conquest before that, because: The alternative is setting up those planets as farms locked at around 20-40 pops, so they're both productive and on the nice part of the growth curve. Everyone's acting like your pop growth shuts off completely before the galaxy closes off and starts forming alliance blocks. Are you all playing on huge galaxies with max habitable planets or something?
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Apr 29, 2021 09:30
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I've been trying out Guilli's techs/ship components mods and it's a lot of fun, but: 1) Seems like techs could use more triggers - e.g. I am being offered claims discount techs and damage to piracy techs as a DA with no need of them. 2) The new ship components aren't always set as upgrades of the old, so auto-upgrade ignores them. Very much enjoying having gone Disruptors and having an endgame version of them though!
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Apr 29, 2021 09:45
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Cease to Hope posted:2K is about the point where I found that no matter what I did, growing pops was no longer practical at all. It slowed down before that. But that doesn't make raiding more productive than conquest before that, because: I can't speak for others but my game was a 'cheevo run so basically default settings on medium. I'm not sure what your point is here; by horrifically gaming the system in one manner you've found no need to horrifically game it the other way, and are questioning people who claim the system needs to be explicitly gamed to be able to snowball like we used to and/or play on higher difficulties*? I think trying to play in a "normal, intuitive" way almost feels like a trap for new players. *As an aside, I think playing on harder difficulties is almost mandatory as the AI will eventually collapse its own economies on Ensign =[
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Apr 29, 2021 09:56
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Darkrenown posted:I've been trying out Guilli's techs/ship components mods and it's a lot of fun, but: It's very strange that armor (and hull) upgrades just go up from neutronium armor and crystal-something plating, but shields stop at hyper shields, with tier 6 and above shields being their own, distinct category.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:56
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Torrannor posted:It's very strange that armor (and hull) upgrades just go up from neutronium armor and crystal-something plating, but shields stop at hyper shields, with tier 6 and above shields being their own, distinct category. yeah there are some oddities with guilli's ship components. i use it together with Extra Ship Components; both mods have configuration menus, so you can just turn off whichever set of overlapping components you don't like, and ESC has a lot of fun ultra-high-tier weapons, like gravity cannons and psionic disruptors, that you have to fuel with special resources. it adds a bit more complexity to the top end of the economy and the combination of guilli's mods + ESC means you're basically never going to be left with just repeatable techs to research until you're deep in the endgame. the AI gets the special resources for free so as not to tax its brain too much, so they will generally make some use of the additional weapons too. fwiw guilli responds promptly to comments on the workshop so if you, or especially darkrenown as a former dev, have any input to give i'm sure he'd pay attention to it
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Apr 29, 2021 10:05
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Serephina posted:I can't speak for others but my game was a 'cheevo run so basically default settings on medium. I'm not sure what your point is here; by horrifically gaming the system in one manner you've found no need to horrifically game it the other way, and are questioning people who claim the system needs to be explicitly gamed to be able to snowball like we used to and/or play on higher difficulties*? This isn't "horrifically gaming the system". Most planets can't even have more than about 30-40-ish scientists or alloy factory workers or the same type of raw material worker anyway, and there are large productivity bonuses for specializing your planets. If you focus every planet on having only the best jobs it can, boosted by the planet designation and one set of booster buildings, then stop adding jobs when there aren't any more jobs of that type to add, then good growth will happen to you naturally. Also, capping the growth of planets is 100% free. You don't need to burn one of your relatively precious civics or ascension perks to take it. I don't think a metropole/periphery urbanization strategy of funneling people seeking work to the densely-populated core is really "gaming the system", just "playing a strategy game".
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Apr 29, 2021 10:25
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If anything I'm having trouble keeping up with the much quicker early game growth curve. It's much easier to expand faster than your economy can handle now.
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Apr 29, 2021 10:30
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i read a suggestion in their beta thread that said cap max pop/planet at planet size and wondered if this person thinks fondly upon the tiles days, because he just reinvented tiles at that point
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Apr 29, 2021 13:30
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There was also someone complaining that they SimCity the entire galaxy until 3600 on their god-tier PC and it slows down, so the pop changes didn't improve endgame performance. That thread is not a place for normal people.
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Apr 29, 2021 13:37
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i have an extremely difficult time having a game last until the crisis hits before i zoom off to a new shiny fresh civ, i can't even imagine 2600. inevitably i hit a point where i know the crisis isn't going to be a threat at all so i kibosh the run
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Apr 29, 2021 13:37
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Tarnop posted:There was also someone complaining that they SimCity the entire galaxy until 3600 on their god-tier PC and it slows down, so the pop changes didn't improve endgame performance. That thread is not a place for normal people.
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Apr 29, 2021 13:46
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Thinking about the "pops are more expensive to grow the more there are in your empire" issue, I guess they had two objectives - lower the number of pops in the galaxy so the late-game performs better, and add some "rubber-banding" so empires that already have lots of pops grow slower than empires with fewer pops. I'd tackle each objective separately - first off, the "too many pops make the game slow" problem. Set a maximum population for the galaxy by limiting how many habitats and ringworlds there can be - once all the habitable planets, habitat sites and ringworld sites are full of pops, you've reached the "galaxy population limit". Have this be a game setting - instead of "habitable planets" have a "galaxy population limit", and maybe a benchmark tool that tests your PC and suggests how high you should set the setting. My dream solution to pops is to have a stage of empire size where you stop managing at the pop level and start managing at the planet level. Once you have 30 planets, dealing with a single pop unit is pretty insignificant - just have a planet be a designation, a level of development, and a set of inputs and outputs. So you might have a Development 50 mining planet. It eats 100 food, 30 energy and 30 consumer goods, and produces 500 minerals. You can spend resources to increase the Development of the planet, which increases the inputs and outputs. If you drop below 30 planets, you can start managing individual pops again. Second, the "rubber-banding". Maybe have admin cap not be a thing at all until you reach a certain number of pops - in smaller empires you don't need planet-sized office buildings, the planet capitals can take care of it. But once you start getting over a certain size, you start needing bureaucracy, and the larger you get, the greater the proportion of your empire needs to be devoted to administration, or you start taking penalties. That way smaller empires punch a little bit above their weight since they don't have to have offices, and huge empires have to devote a sector or two to paper-shuffling to stay organised.
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Apr 29, 2021 13:53
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Gort posted:Maybe have admin cap not be a thing at all until you reach a certain number of pops - in smaller empires you don't need planet-sized office buildings, the planet capitals can take care of it. But once you start getting over a certain size, you start needing bureaucracy, and the larger you get, the greater the proportion of your empire needs to be devoted to administration, or you start taking penalties. That way smaller empires punch a little bit above their weight since they don't have to have offices, and huge empires have to devote a sector or two to paper-shuffling to stay organised. 1.) Clerks are still poo poo and dont add to admin cap (even a small contribution would be nice as it would make Clerks actually useful and it would mean you could get admin cap from more than one source). 2.) Being under the admin cap does literally nothing for you. 3.) Administrators do not add to your Admin Cap  If they did something for being under the admin cap (some sort of scaling bonus that caps off at like 100% under (being at 50 of 100 or 300 out of 600)) would also help the rubber-banding thing where smaller empires that get admin cap-increasing techs get a bonus by being more efficient in some way. Instead we get nothing lmao.
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Apr 29, 2021 14:43
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Bloody Pom posted:If anything I'm having trouble keeping up with the much quicker early game growth curve. It's much easier to expand faster than your economy can handle now. Sloober posted:i read a suggestion in their beta thread that said cap max pop/planet at planet size and wondered if this person thinks fondly upon the tiles days, because he just reinvented tiles at that point ...as is Admin Cap =/
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Apr 29, 2021 15:01
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Is the mega shipyard somehow not part of production capacity? Why would I be queueing stuff at normal starbases while it sits empty? Does it still give preference to bases with fleet academies? ... and is there any point to a science nexus when I'm already into repeatables by ~2500?
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Apr 29, 2021 15:10
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The Mega Shipyard will help build orders for any starbase it shares a system with, at least. Dunno about how it interacts when its off by itself.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:12
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Shumagorath posted:... and is there any point to a science nexus when I'm already into repeatables by ~2500? Repeatables are strong and you want as many of them as you can possibly get.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:12
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Megashipyard is definitely used, I built one last night, but it certainly doesn't seem to have any priority - maybe because it doesn't have fleet academies? Or does it have a built in XP bonus? It is real nice for upgrading fleets though. And it gives empire-wide shipbuilding speed bonuses, so it helps even if your old starbases are building.
Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Apr 29, 2021 |
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Apr 29, 2021 15:13
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Shumagorath posted:Is the mega shipyard somehow not part of production capacity? Why would I be queueing stuff at normal starbases while it sits empty? Does it still give preference to bases with fleet academies? Between gateways and a mega shipyard, you should probably just not bother with normal starbase shipyards Regarding the science nexus, depends on the game state. If you're just running out the clock until you easily crush the crisis, you might as well save yourself the clicks. If you're desperately researching damage techs to match the ridiculously strong crisis that's coming up, you should probably build the nexus.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:22
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Serephina posted:It doesn't do anything that NilAq doesn't, with the exception of getting access to it before your first ascension perk (and/or trading a civic slot for another perk). It's up to the player to decide if they need it that early Taking Barbaric Despoilers gives you access to the Adaptability tree, which is vastly better than Diplomacy.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:26
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Sloober posted:i read a suggestion in their beta thread that said cap max pop/planet at planet size and wondered if this person thinks fondly upon the tiles days, because he just reinvented tiles at that point Until the 3.0 patch, I felt that tiles were significantly better than the district/building system they added in 2.2 or whatever. I haven't played enough in 3.0 to have an updated opinion. Tiles were definitely a bit boring, especially after they removed all the adjacency bonuses, but they were simple.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:27
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I felt more connected to my planets with the tile system but the game was just a 'click the upgrade button' simulator back then.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:28
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Thom12255 posted:I felt more connected to my planets with the tile system but the game was just a 'click the upgrade button' simulator back then.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:37
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PittTheElder posted:Taking Barbaric Despoilers gives you access to the Adaptability tree, which is vastly better than Diplomacy. An excellent point! In my defense the traditions are all so bad that I tend not to think too hard about them (especially bad compared to civ5 which they where lifted from).
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Apr 29, 2021 15:42
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QuarkJets posted:This looks like it's assuming old base growth, what happens when you include the base growth bonus from capacity? Breakeven probably closer to 80ish years? https://www.desmos.com/calculator/fiyeenbkxo Splicer fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Apr 29, 2021 |
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Apr 29, 2021 15:44
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Gort posted:Between gateways and a mega shipyard, you should probably just not bother with normal starbase shipyards The crisis is already dead. I got Unbidden before the second fallen empire woke up (they still haven't).
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Apr 29, 2021 16:07
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Shumagorath posted:The mega yard is off in a distant corner connected to a gateway, whereas the home bases for my fleets have ~4 yards each to ensure repairs are done quickly. Am I overdoing it? Fallen Empire awakening happens all at once. If a second one didn't awaken within a year or two it's not going to.
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Apr 29, 2021 16:35
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PittTheElder posted:Fallen Empire awakening happens all at once. If a second one didn't awaken within a year or two it's not going to.
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Apr 29, 2021 16:37
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Huh, I thought the tempest didn't come out of the gate you originally open? They definitely did, and hosed up all my systems until I could build up a huge fleet to go after them
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Apr 29, 2021 16:57
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