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Staltran posted:Like the Civ Beyond Earth tech web? Huh, yeah, a bit, but in a very "first pass by someone not a UX designer" way. Lawman 0 posted:Ok now you gotta show us this. 
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May 28, 2021 15:47
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It bugs me how much space each card takes up in the tech window. Shrink them 50% in each direction you could easily fit like 16 cards in there.
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May 28, 2021 15:50
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Darkrenown posted:Huh, yeah, a bit, but in a very "first pass by someone not a UX designer" way. 
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May 28, 2021 15:54
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Replace tech cards with lottery scratch-off tickets.
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May 28, 2021 16:08
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Cease to Hope posted:that, in fact, flattens the decision-making. if i can wait on a tech, then there's a decision to take it sooner or later. in stellaris, if a tech is ever going to be important, then i'm taking it now. And if you have to choose between two long term important techs? Short term gain vs potential long term gain is, like, the core concept of "strategy".
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May 28, 2021 16:11
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Cease to Hope posted:people choose mil techs over eco techs or vice versa in games with tech trees, too. there's no new "actual" layer of decisionmaking. The actual layer of decision making comes from not knowing how soon a tech will appear again as opposed to always having it available as an option. Do I select this very important robotics tech now, not knowing when it might appear again, or do I continue focusing on ship upgrades?
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May 28, 2021 16:16
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Cease to Hope posted:a ton of stuff in all three tech categories is keyed off of the techs to improve your capital, in social research. this isn't obvious or intuitive and everyone seems to forget it's even a thing unless they read a guide that specifically reminds them of this yeah that's true but once you research the capital line once and see what it does it'll be the first thing you pick every time if the card pops up at least  also i've been thinking, the RNG of the tech cards kinda kills some choices for me. i get a tech choice i could really use right now, but if in the same draw there's also a very important or even rare tech, and i'll always go for that instead because RNG means i have no idea if it'll show up again in the next 30 years. i sorta counter that these days by going as hard on research as i can possibly afford so i'm seeing the first repeatables as early as ~2350, it really makes cleaning up rare/hard to get techs before endgame crises start easier lol anyway, i'm currently playing a driven assimilator in a multiplyer game and uh, with the new "growth goes slower the longer you go" assimilators seem pretty much the best, especially for a war playthrough. you get the pop assimilation option on year 0, the assimilation is quick enough that even 100 pop planets will get integrated before they can rebel, and you get the simplicity and growth rate of a gestalt i easily crashed the a fallen empire's party in 2360 while also at war with a giant purifier empire simply because they were in my way, and now i'm just gonna wait for the crisis to pop up. it's set at x10 so i'm looking forward to that lol
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May 28, 2021 16:29
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And if you have to choose between two long term important techs?
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May 28, 2021 16:37
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QuarkJets posted:The actual layer of decision making comes from not knowing how soon a tech will appear again as opposed to always having it available as an option. Do I select this very important robotics tech now, not knowing when it might appear again, or do I continue focusing on ship upgrades? once again, this is econ versus mil. pottery versus bronzeworking. it's the same decisions you make when you're choosing a builder tech order versus a killer tech order in civ2. the difference in stellaris is sometimes you just only get offered pottery or weaker pottery. MrL_JaKiri posted:And if you have to choose between two long term important techs? two long-term important techs isn't short term versus long term. i don't know what point you're trying to make now
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May 28, 2021 16:42
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toasterwarrior posted:The thing is, Powered Exoskeletons *does* have an icon on it that, when moused over, says it will enable the player to progress down the robotics path. This also applies to other techs, namely the weapon techs that branch off into specialized weapons like plasma cannons and etc. imo the icon should be different for different tech paths. right now it's easy to miss the icon's existence entirely, and it's very...abstract. but if there was a big robot icon on powered exoskeletons, a power icon for the reactor techs, etc. i think it would be easier for players to learn.
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May 28, 2021 16:58
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Splicer posted:There is a very long, very complicated discussion to be had about how compatible post-decision RNG is with the concept of tactics. If I choose to pass up terraforming and it doesn't roll again for 100 years did I make the wrong choice? If it rerolls on the next roll did I make the right one? If you miss a 95%er in X-Com was it wrong to take the shot? It's a bit of a red herring question - what's wrong is to play like 95%ers always hit, or indeed that 10%ers always miss if that's your best shot of surviving. Truga posted:yeah that's true but once you research the capital line once and see what it does it'll be the first thing you pick every time if the card pops up at least It's not at all transparent that it unlocks things. "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" isn't a good way to approach strategy games imo
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May 28, 2021 17:01
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If you miss a 95%er in X-Com was it wrong to take the shot? MrL_JaKiri posted:It's a bit of a red herring question - what's wrong is to play like 95%ers always hit, or indeed that 10%ers always miss if that's your best shot of surviving. e: a hail mary shot when you don't have any other option isn't a tactical decision, and neither is shooting a 95% shot if there's no meaningful opportunity cost to doing so. e2: and now I've already answered yours I suppose Splicer fucked around with this message at 17:14 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 17:08
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So something that actually would be great is if there was a better slave market. It sucks to be constantly getting pings all game long that my species is for sale, but then having those slaves get picked up almost instantly by the AI and therefore not even be buyable. I want to liberate all my enslaved brethren that I can, preferably without having to pause/unpause over and over. Some sort of automatic auctioning system would be excellent, but really anything that prevents the system from pinging over and over and over would be lovely.
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May 28, 2021 17:10
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I really have no idea what situation would make you want to give away precious, precious pops.
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May 28, 2021 17:14
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Splicer posted:It's extremely not and the two examples aren't hugely comparable. The answer to "do I take terraforming" is going to be weighted by how much it fucks you up if you don't get it for ages, just as "do I take this shot" depends on the outcomes. Evaluating post facto how correct decisions were by their randomly determined outcome is 100% a fool's errand and that makes the examples directly comparable. In short: a decision isn't wrong because it had a bad outcome, and a decision isn't right because it had a good outcome. For basically any competitive game with a big probability element (card games mostly, eg MtG and Poker) there are endless blog posts and newbie guides about how to understand and plan for variance. The process doesn't change between different games, although the probabilities in Stellaris are a lot more hidden than "what's the chance of the opponent topdecking an out" in magic, for example. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 17:16
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And Tyler Too! posted:Replace tech cards with lottery scratch-off tickets.  Lawman 0 posted:I really have no idea what situation would make you want to give away precious, precious pops. What if you fed them to a giant pink bowed space dragon and she gave you scientists that had fabulous costumes and their own unique deck of techs? UNIQUE IDEA DO NOT STEAL
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May 28, 2021 17:24
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Anias posted:
I assume this is how it works in the stellaris mobile game
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May 28, 2021 17:28
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The answer to "do I take terraforming" is going to be weighted by how much it fucks you up if you don't get it for ages, just as "do I take this shot" depends on the outcomes. Evaluating how correct decisions were by their randomly determined outcome is 100% a fool's errand and that makes the examples directly comparable. In short: a decision isn't wrong because it had a bad outcome, and a decision isn't right because it had a good outcome. Splicer fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 17:31
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Splicer posted:I'm of the opinion that the current card system in the context of the rest of the game is on the RNG bullshit side. Agreed (see also my suggested variation on your "scientist jobs to force certain techs" post), although the bullshit aspect is imo mostly down to how opaque the whole thing is.
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May 28, 2021 17:33
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What if there were a LOT more uninteresting filler techs and the game went heavier on the "+x tech cards drawn" mechanic?
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May 28, 2021 17:41
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ShadowHawk posted:What if there were a LOT more uninteresting filler techs and the game went heavier on the "+x tech cards drawn" mechanic? Then my scrolling finger would get an additional workout but my choices would be less interesting. Exercise versus gaming, the age-old tradeoff.
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May 28, 2021 17:45
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ShadowHawk posted:What if there were a LOT more uninteresting filler techs and the game went heavier on the "+x tech cards drawn" mechanic?
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May 28, 2021 17:46
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I'm not going to Post The Tech Tree in case we decide to re-use some aspect of it in a future design (we probably shouldn't), but I can say that not knowing what comes next was an integral design goal even back then. What made it not great was it being a semi-hierarchical tree made of hex-shaped containers where a) you wouldn't research over time but buy techs with science resources you accumulated b) you'd work your way down a branch to unlock a promising-looking Physics hex only to find it filled with absolute garbage c) that you then had to research to unlock the next hex.
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May 28, 2021 17:47
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LordMune posted:I'm not going to Post The Tech Tree in case we decide to re-use some aspect of it in a future design (we probably shouldn't), but I can say that not knowing what comes next was an integral design goal even back then. What made it not great was it being a semi-hierarchical tree made of hex-shaped containers where a) you wouldn't research over time but buy techs with science resources you accumulated b) you'd work your way down a branch to unlock a promising-looking Physics hex only to find it filled with absolute garbage c) that you then had to research to unlock the next hex. oh my god it was science lootboxes
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May 28, 2021 17:49
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Lawman 0 posted:I really have no idea what situation would make you want to give away precious, precious pops. I am usually willing to trade away six drones for the Waste Reprocessing Center from the Racketeers. It is really good in the early game and not too bad later.
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May 28, 2021 17:51
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Splicer posted:Ascendancy and it was glorious. Patch scrollwheel support in and it would stand up today. From the previous page, and yes the UI was lovely but a very large number of techs were relatively useless, despite being cool in concept (a gun that does no damage but bounces opponents away? Sounds cool, but there's this other gun that just blows them up). Ironically, a lot of these would suit Stellaris much more: pacifists being able to use tractor beams, hyperlane blockers and bouncy balls to repel opponents without killing them would be very cool.
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May 28, 2021 17:52
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LordMune posted:not knowing what comes next was an integral design goal even back then.
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May 28, 2021 17:55
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ShadowHawk posted:What if there were a LOT more uninteresting filler techs and the game went heavier on the "+x tech cards drawn" mechanic? The way I'd go about it is rip all the filler out, only have interesting tech cards, and then move all the incremental bonuses into the act of researching a tier of tech. So a tier one tech would give you whatever neat thing, plus like 1% research speed, 1% worker output, etc.
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May 28, 2021 17:55
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ZypherIM posted:The way I'd go about it is rip all the filler out, only have interesting tech cards, and then move all the incremental bonuses into the act of researching a tier of tech. So a tier one tech would give you whatever neat thing, plus like 1% research speed, 1% worker output, etc.
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May 28, 2021 17:57
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Aethernet posted:From the previous page, and yes the UI was lovely but a very large number of techs were relatively useless, despite being cool in concept (a gun that does no damage but bounces opponents away? Sounds cool, but there's this other gun that just blows them up). Ironically, a lot of these would suit Stellaris much more: pacifists being able to use tractor beams, hyperlane blockers and bouncy balls to repel opponents without killing them would be very cool. Splicer fucked around with this message at 18:05 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 17:59
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ZypherIM posted:The way I'd go about it is rip all the filler out, only have interesting tech cards, and then move all the incremental bonuses into the act of researching a tier of tech. So a tier one tech would give you whatever neat thing, plus like 1% research speed, 1% worker output, etc. So one thing I was thinking about with the idea of having a Tech Target that increases the odds to give you the options is that you could tie a lot of the incidental filler techs into sitting a scientist in that target area, with the progress scaled by your tech output. Scrub out all the repeatables at the same time.
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May 28, 2021 18:00
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Splicer posted:I meant it was visually glorious and I at least found it fun and easy to use, bar the scroll wheel thing making it unplayable these days. I make no comments about the actual utility of individual techs against the famously bad AI, but I did like playing with the weird weapons. I really mix the 90s 4x trend of weird weapons, my previous comments about Ascendancy tech notwithstanding. MOO2's beam weapons and their various mods were great fun. You could do quite well with neutron beams and assault shuttles if you chose to lean into it. That reminds me: @LordMune ship boarding when?
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May 28, 2021 18:10
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Aethernet posted:That reminds me: @LordMune ship boarding when?
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May 28, 2021 18:18
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I really wish I liked ES2 more, the UI pisses me off for some reason.
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May 28, 2021 18:27
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Cease to Hope posted:people choose mil techs over eco techs or vice versa in games with tech trees, too. there's no new "actual" layer of decisionmaking. so if there is no true difference, you're perfectly fine with the tech system in Stellaris? good talk LordMune posted:I'm not going to Post The Tech Tree in case we decide to re-use some aspect of it in a future design (we probably shouldn't), but I can say that not knowing what comes next was an integral design goal even back then. What made it not great was it being a semi-hierarchical tree made of hex-shaped containers where a) you wouldn't research over time but buy techs with science resources you accumulated b) you'd work your way down a branch to unlock a promising-looking Physics hex only to find it filled with absolute garbage c) that you then had to research to unlock the next hex. The only thing this could be worse would be if the player also has to enter their credit card details and pay real money to unluck techs 
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May 28, 2021 19:10
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Splicer posted:I really do get this as a design goal for a tech tree and I love it when a game pulls off stuff like this but there are so many reasons Stellaris doesn't and a bunch of them aren't even directly tech tree related. I get that you think we developers live in a bubble blissfully unaware of criticisms of the game, but I can assure you we do not. Recalling some truly ancient pre-release designs wasn't me angling for put-downs, stuff like this is extremely tiring to read.
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May 28, 2021 19:12
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Libluini posted:so if there is no true difference, you're perfectly fine with the tech system in Stellaris? good talk the original point is that it didn't accomplish the goal of being a meaningful improvement over tech trees
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May 28, 2021 19:53
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I got like 6 species in my empire, and an empire population of about 200~ more or less. I am running modded, but when I open the species tab to mod a species, my robots, or set rights, I get a massive drop in frame rate and the menu becomes almost unusable from lag. Species mods I am using is a dimorphism portrait pack, More trait picks from 5 to 10, and Just More Traits. In addition, Diverse Planets, which adds a bunch of planet types to pick habitability from. As soon as I close the menu, fps goes back to normal, and I can play at normal speed, but Im now sitting on an extra 4 trait points to all species, 2 for my robots, that I cant use. Is there something I can adjust to fix this?
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May 28, 2021 19:58
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SirTagz posted:* Some techs are randomly removed for every player so everyone gets a different set of techs every game (the grayed out techs would not be present in the UI at all). I hate this, and would immediately make a day 1 mod to remove that.
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May 28, 2021 20:58
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Lawman 0 posted:I really have no idea what situation would make you want to give away precious, precious pops. If you start as a lost colony and your parent empire gets conquered, there's a good chance you can pick up a ton of your main species' pops on the slave market.
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May 28, 2021 21:11
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