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Agean90 posted:the devs should just go with the one that's the most interesting and ties in the best with the games design goals and let modders do maximum historicity imo I think this is the thing that gets lost in these types of threads. Despite being billed as a simulator it’s a game first a simulator second…and far in second
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Jun 10, 2021 23:54
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What if each state had its own little fund and if left to its own devices would eventually save up enough to occasionally build a building on its own, based on what makes sense given the local resources. So it would be like "This state is currently planning to build an iron mine. At the current rate it will have enough money in 25 years" Then the player could intervene in three ways: Pay some money into the state fund so it can build its iron mine sooner Pay some money / influence to convince the state to save up for an ammunition factory instead of an iron mine Pay more money to just build an ammunition factory immediately
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Jun 10, 2021 23:58
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My understanding as part of what the thread has been mostly been saying past day about automation and what I understand AnEdgelord to be saying is less that he wants a "historically accurate game" but that he/they are suggesting systems that feel more immersive. Your backwater on the border shouldn't just be putting its hands up in the air doing nothing as people pile in and grain gets harvested but no one to sell it because the railroad is stuck at level 1; there should be some means; either the local government in the advent of a lack of capitalists in the region looking for investment oppurtunities; or the local government raising funds through bonds, loans, or through its local state budget; mandates the construction of "stuff" in response to its needs. This should be competitive with the player's overall direction, so a large empire doesn't need micro to manage, but in a small enough country the player can usually click things faster than the AI's decision making, sparing them the expense. The player doing it should basically take away the AI's opportunity costs to meet its needs; allowing them to invest or save those resources for something else; but if they do something before the player can, it should be cheaper than when the player does it, substantially so, so it doesn't feel like you're playing wrong by letting the AI handle things. The basic idea is the local councils/regional communities and state or territorial governments shouldn't be a bunch of helpless hapless pigeons who need player intervention just to feed themselves; but should be capable of some discrete amount of self improvement from time to time as the need arises. The advantage of the player is that they can pile on and concentrate a whole bunch of improvements and direct the entire nations resources at one region, turning it into a utopia if they so desire which will massively increase growth. This is less about realism and more about immersion and removing some of the bloat of the game's micro from the player. CharlestheHammer posted:I think this is the thing that gets lost in these types of threads. Despite being billed as a simulator it’s a game first a simulator second…and far in second It's easy to contextualize the suggestion though in terms of gameplay and justify it; its about making the game less tedious and allowing the mechanics to more easily scale up.
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Jun 10, 2021 23:58
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I mean the AI is going to be less effective than the player if they are even sort of competent. There is no way around that. Maybe one day but not today
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Jun 11, 2021 00:02
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean it sounds like your just advocating the same system but with more period accurate window dressing Hellioning posted:Yeah, that just sounds like the current system with extra steps. Clearly I'm not articulating myself clearly enough if this is the conclusion you came to. Let me try this again: There is no reason to stop pops from constructing buildings on their own, what you need is more ways to interact with the pops doing the construction and better logic for how those pops select their construction. For one thing I think that having a certain percentage of the Capitalist pops "chase" higher value trade goods by building more production for the specific trade good they are targeting would be a good thing and would do two things. The first thing it would do is make it so speculative bubbles can happen due to overproduction of the resource in question, the second thing that it would do is give the player a way to "steer" these pops via a carrot i.e. subsidies. Subsidies would theoretically allow you to use government funds to encourage the production of specific resources, as in real life, you would have a monthly payout to capitalist pops that own factories that produce the good you are subsidizing which would be factored into their determinations for which trade goods they target. I don't think that this should replace the system as described in the dev diary, but I envision this as something that exists in addition to it. I'm no programmer and I'm fully prepared for Wiz to come in here and tell me this would be a nightmare to program and its not worth it but I wanted to at least try to articulate what I was saying better than I did. Party In My Diapee posted:I vote for the most important things for a great game to be state diplomacy, conflict and imperialism, as well as internal and global politics and ideology connected to pops. Trains and buildings i'm not so worried about. I highly disagree, the economic simulation is by far the most important element and its not particularly close, everything should be downstream from it and judging by the dev diaries so far it is
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Jun 11, 2021 00:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm with Edgelord, there should be some degree of "capitalists/local communes/local government" doing stuff on its own. It seems to me that the new system as described for V3 removes the jagged edges that made that system screw you over more. If there's no slots than it doesnt matter if capitalists build the wrong thing, if you want to use the common fund to build some things specifically you can; but they can also do stuff on their own? That seems reasonable to me. By all means the game should have business cycles, speculative bubbles, and a finance sector outside of player control. But in Vicky 2, what we got was capitalists builds a worthless factroy, again and again. If I'm not mistaken, that takes up a factory slot for the state which could be really frustrating. e: I replied to an old post, this is covered already
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Jun 11, 2021 00:33
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Agean90 posted:the devs should just go with the one that's the most interesting and ties in the best with the games design goals and lmao @ verisimilitude nerds at the scale the game takes place.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:40
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Takanago posted:From the Dev Diary: "Several different types of Private Industries are shown below" i don't see clipper factories in this screenshot. my ability to feel human is teetering on the edge, wiz!!!
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Jun 11, 2021 00:43
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Hellioning posted:It's realistic that capitalist pops or local communes might control more infrastructure or buildings than the local government, but in practical terms it means that the player's primary form of interacting with something that is 'absolutely core' and 'a major part of the game's core loop' is staring at the screen and hoping the AI doesn't screw you over. The thing is a sizable of people genuinely did find it fun.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:53
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Hellioning posted:It's realistic that capitalist pops or local communes might control more infrastructure or buildings than the local government, but in practical terms it means that the player's primary form of interacting with something that is 'absolutely core' and 'a major part of the game's core loop' is staring at the screen and hoping the AI doesn't screw you over. 
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Jun 11, 2021 00:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the AI is going to be less effective than the player if they are even sort of competent. There is no way around that. Maybe one day but not today Lets use an example; the Russian Empire. The AI probably doesn't really understand that the best way to get products from the middle of no where siberia to Moscow/St. Petersberg is probably by train. But to build the Trans-Siberian railway is for many reasons beyond them. For one, it would be very expensive to put down that much railstock, for not very much return; it's probably fine to use the rivers and portages, or maybe the port at Vladivostok and send it via shipping. The AI might see that building a railway from Orenberg to an already existing Trans-Siberian would make sense; or Moscow to St. Petersberg, but Moscow to Vladivostok is something the more short term profit focused AI presumably is unable to plan. Thus, you have an example of something the human can do better than the AI, but still leaving a space for the AI to do things at a local level and take advantage of more macro level decisions the player can do. The player can make the strategic level decision to work on the trans-Siberian railway, and expand Vladivostok and industries around Moscow in preparation for it; and invest in places along the route. The AI, seeing say the massive spike in demand for lumber, steel and rolling stock can direct their resources towards taking advantage of that demand, expanding or building the relevant factories; and when it sees via its pathfinding logic that it can make a lot of money by connecting its local node to the strategic railway, it will start working its way there like ants. Or expanding industries along the route without your direction; etc. Notice that these accomplish several fun things; it rewards the player with economic activity as a result of them thinking strategically; it provides a challenge as the railway is likely somewhat expensive in cost and resources; and it strengthens the player's control over their Empire by making it faster to ship reinforcements to the far flung reaches of their empire. As a similar example, building the trans-Canadian or trans-Pacific railways serve similar roles, the player knows that by doing this they improve their position; but have to deal with various challenges in doing so. They give challenge, reward, immersion, and make the game more fun. Basically, the player esp. at larger sizes should be more concerned with the macro situation; with the micro situation handled locally; but in different ways; local governments, communes, the peasants doing their thing via the subsistence buildings, capitalists, etc should maybe all feel a little different in how they doing things, and be able to potentially co-exist. The local government "AI" wants to build services and infrastructure that makes the pops happy; capitalists want to buy already invested infrastructure, or build factories to make widgets and sell pops goods; pops want to slowly inch their way up Mazlow's pyramid of needs; first by feeding themselves; then by earning money to buy luxuries; then by living in a better abode, then by eating better; at some point having access to better schools, better markets, etc as their income and standard of living increases. Local communes I imagine are more split between wanting to manage a factory to produce tools, clothes, and other products and making sure people are fed and eshew cash crops; capitalists might ultra-focus on cash crops and stuff "in demand" over stuff people might regularly need. Vivian Darkbloom posted:By all means the game should have business cycles, speculative bubbles, and a finance sector outside of player control. But in Vicky 2, what we got was capitalists builds a worthless factroy, again and again. If I'm not mistaken, that takes up a factory slot for the state which could be really frustrating. I believe I've clarified my thinking above; but aside from the fact that in Victoria 3 limited building slots are no longer a thing, but I feel like you're responding to the wrong post? The post where I talk about speculation bubbles is like from a week ago. And is also largely solved by not having the factory "close" completely, but be resold to a different group of capitalists and reopened producing a different product. The factories resetting in size in Vicky 2 was very frustrating. But factory space is factory space and except for certain broad categories (a canning plant is not necessarily a good space for making tractors or cars) probably shouldn't need to be torn town; heck some factories spaces in real life got turned into resturants and pubs; aka "urban centers" in V3 terms. AnEdgelord posted:Clearly I'm not articulating myself clearly enough if this is the conclusion you came to. Let me try this again: I think one key difference as to what we wanna do is avoid a situation where players are incentivized to leave subsidies on forever or else they're paranoid that everything implodes. Basically the prospect that some businesses or projects might fail should be viewed as a positive; of clearing away the dead weight and to allow your resources (such as the workforce) to reallocate themselves to more productive endeavors. Ideally POPs should move to where the jobs are at a much faster clip based on the available transportation infrastructure. Basically subsidies should be more on the front end; and not about keeping something on going. Ideally for something like an armaments industry you keep it afloat through direct orders to that industries instead of cranking the global market buy order up as high as your budget allows. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 11, 2021 |
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Jun 11, 2021 00:57
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Yeah I wonder how much automomy states deserve.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:14
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harvested from the recovered waffleimages, I hope victoria 3 still allows for this
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Jun 11, 2021 01:18
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The Chad Jihad posted:harvested from the recovered waffleimages, I hope victoria 3 still allows for this  It's beautiful.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:20
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Lawman 0 posted:
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Jun 11, 2021 01:27
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secret denmark or death
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Jun 11, 2021 01:28
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The Chad Jihad posted:harvested from the recovered waffleimages, I hope victoria 3 still allows for this
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Jun 11, 2021 01:29
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how many algos implementin this game are gonna be strictly ω(n) (not O(n), ω(n)) and so dog poo poo slow in late game so much of the stellaris futzing really really smells like they wrote ω(n) stuff for a buncha variables like pops and jobs and poo poo and they whacked n down instead of cracking open the good algos
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Jun 11, 2021 01:32
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Every country and subnational entity should have its full and official name plastered across the map imo
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Jun 11, 2021 01:33
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The Chad Jihad posted:harvested from the recovered waffleimages, I hope victoria 3 still allows for this I'm the unlabeled orange country. I assume it's Chile but who knows.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:34
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm the unlabeled orange country. I assume it's Chile but who knows. That's Bolivia-Peru. Which mod is it where you can theoretically have like five different Polands at the same time?
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Jun 11, 2021 01:37
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Regarding the matter of players directing construction, the way I'd interpret this is that in Paradox games the player has never been "the state", really. When you start picking the national focuses to oppose hitler as Germany in HoI 4, it's not like Hitler is holding a meeting to say we've really gotta get rid of this Hitler guy. With Crusader Kings, you're like the spirit of a dynasty, just because Von Fuckstein is duke of bavaria now, in a hundred years you might be the Von Fuckstein king of Jerusalem, and you certainly won't be the same person. And when you choose to support the Yorkists over the Lancastrians as England in EU4, who or what is actually choosing a side here? So in the case of Vicky, I don't see the player picking what sort of private industry is built to be the state directing what to build. You're telling the game what capitalists in your country decided to build. If you're playing anything in Victoria 3, you're playing as the owners of the means of production in a country. The owners of the means of production happen to be able to control the state, but they also are the ones who decide which factories get built.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:42
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bob dobbs is dead posted:how many algos implementin this game are gonna be strictly ω(n) (not O(n), ω(n)) and so dog poo poo slow in late game It's certainly a challenge, I think you can cheat it a little using the GPU, compute shaders and the like can do nifty things and supposedly conditional branching in the GPU isn't a super big of a deal; but as an example pop's grow at a fairly consistent predictable rate every so many ticks if not every tick; so that means visiting probably every pop once in that tick to update their pop growth; maybe its done by the state instead which then checks every pop it doesn't matter. If you're watching your budget ledger you expect the real time values to reflect the current real time value of the current and accurate economic activity currently happening. I think you could probably do some checks fairly easily on the GPU; convert the pop's into a texture where every pop is a texel and then adjust the hue of the texel to be a function of its RGBA colour and you have like a billion colours and thus infinite amount of pops in practice that can fit on a single 4K texture. Then you have event listeners/delegates where somethings clearly only need to be updated when interacted with/observed but for a game like Victoria with a real time economy you're stuck.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:44
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I think a lot of people are just letting their experience with Victoria 2 limit and hinder their thoughts around the design of this game, up to and including the idea that the player is specifically the state and so the decision is "either players build this or the capitalist AI does or the communist peasant societies do". e: to the point where I even saw a poster worried that private industries would be its own building that abstracted capitalism?
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Jun 11, 2021 01:46
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There is one thing that still seems unclear to me. It talks about how there are some buildings that are state owned and some buildings that are privately owned. Will socialist/communist states not own those "private industries"? It seems like what is considered private or not should differ nation to nation. (if there is no functional gameplay difference then I guess it doesn't matter)Reveilled posted:Regarding the matter of players directing construction, the way I'd interpret this is that in Paradox games the player has never been "the state", really. When you start picking the national focuses to oppose hitler as Germany in HoI 4, it's not like Hitler is holding a meeting to say we've really gotta get rid of this Hitler guy. With Crusader Kings, you're like the spirit of a dynasty, just because Von Fuckstein is duke of bavaria now, in a hundred years you might be the Von Fuckstein king of Jerusalem, and you certainly won't be the same person. And when you choose to support the Yorkists over the Lancastrians as England in EU4, who or what is actually choosing a side here? Indeed, this is how Paradox games have always worked. You are frequently making decisions in all of them that the state itself would never make. Even in CK, you are not playing as the characters specifically (otherwise, there would be no random events where your character does things outside of your control). The level of omnipotence you're given differs from title to title, but it's still always the same principle—you are playing as a guiding hand, molding nations/dynasties into your liking. I believe Paradox has called the player the "spirit of the nation" in the past. In Vicky 3, your level of influence is higher than in Vicky 2, but it functions on the same principle. You are able to guide capitalists just as well as presidents, cabinets, and senates.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:57
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:There is one thing that still seems unclear to me. It talks about how there are some buildings that are state owned and some buildings that are privately owned. Will socialist/communist states not own those "private industries"? It seems like what is considered private or not should differ nation to nation. (if there is no functional gameplay difference then I guess it doesn't matter) quote:The counterpart to Government Buildings is Private Industries. The vast majority of Buildings in Victoria 3 fall under this category, which includes a broad range of industries such as (non-subsistence!) farms, plantations, mines and factories. Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!). seems like it leaves room not only for state ownership, but also finer gradations of socialist economics such as craftsmen owning their own workplaces
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Jun 11, 2021 02:00
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You are the spirit of the nation; but people in the Victoria context would still like to see things "move on their own" and then decide to leave it be or tax it.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:02
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Jazerus posted:seems like it leaves room not only for state ownership, but also finer gradations of socialist economics such as craftsmen owning their own workplaces Oh, not sure how I missed that.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:It's certainly a challenge, I think you can cheat it a little using the GPU, compute shaders and the like can do nifty things and supposedly conditional branching in the GPU isn't a super big of a deal; but as an example pop's grow at a fairly consistent predictable rate every so many ticks if not every tick; so that means visiting probably every pop once in that tick to update their pop growth; maybe its done by the state instead which then checks every pop it doesn't matter. If you're watching your budget ledger you expect the real time values to reflect the current real time value of the current and accurate economic activity currently happening. you can always get small o(n) of poo poo just with algorithms: monte carlo poo poo, fuckery with the ticks. and then data locality (i guess shader poo poo a subset of data locality) caching and cache sizing and all that poo poo. but the failure of scaling makes me bet it's base algorithm scaling
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Jun 11, 2021 02:04
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bob dobbs is dead posted:how many algos implementin this game are gonna be strictly ω(n) (not O(n), ω(n)) and so dog poo poo slow in late game I don't follow the Stellaris thread but didn't folks in there describe things like Djikstra's algorithm as unsolvable problems, and O(n) a pipe dream? Things like that don't give me confidence, especially with recent Paradox releases.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:14
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bob dobbs is dead posted:how many algos implementin this game are gonna be strictly ω(n) (not O(n), ω(n)) and so dog poo poo slow in late game How the gently caress are you going to do sub-linear operations on a game like this. Buying and selling is probably going to be quadratic
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Jun 11, 2021 02:15
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if they pull off their design goals i guess i honestly don't mind if it's a tick every ten minutes
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Jun 11, 2021 02:19
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VostokProgram posted:How the gently caress are you going to do sub-linear operations on a game like this. Buying and selling is probably going to be quadratic I can imagine that being easily approximately nlogn.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:I can imagine that being easily approximately nlogn. Yeah on further thought that's a terrible example. However the broader point is that much of the game is necessarily going to be at least linear with respect to pops
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Jun 11, 2021 02:37
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Beamed posted:if they pull off their design goals i guess i honestly don't mind if it's a tick every ten minutes
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Jun 11, 2021 04:40
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VostokProgram posted:How the gently caress are you going to do sub-linear operations on a game like this. Buying and selling is probably going to be quadratic as i said, monte carlo and other dirty tricks it a video game
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Jun 11, 2021 05:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, it should probably be in-game time, but yeah, speeding up the game by making ticks more spread out probably wouldn't be the worst thing. Even better if they ran on offset cycles, so the computing load was sorta similar across the year, rather than every non-combat calculation being bunched up at the start of each month. I.. meant just that it would take 10 minutes to go to the next fourth of day, due to how bad performance was, but sure 
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Jun 11, 2021 06:02
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bob dobbs is dead posted:as i said, monte carlo and other dirty tricks The player base is not going to like it if the dirty tricks are too dirty though; remember the recent Sim City? People want their economy to resemble the conditions they have and click on things and see the data be reasonably accurate. I imagine the various things are going to be staggered across different epochs; for example it could be a day to a month's worth of ticks before it seems a good needs to be moved from A to B; unless they represent goods in-transit; then things get a little trickier but it doesn't need to be every tick to check. Presumably pop growth and migration is probably each day; each quarter day is things like troop/ship movement and diplomacy. Basically figure out what is the latest length of time something can go before there needs to be an concrete update that effects other things in the economy that relies on it as an input; that's your main concern. Like I imagine every pop isn't updating its political affiliation every tick, but some percentage of the total at a given tick in the month in batches but by the time the epoch is complete in linear time every pop is still updated I imagine.
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Jun 11, 2021 06:15
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Takanago posted:From the Dev Diary: "Several different types of Private Industries are shown below" It is comprehensible but there are still problems. Like in the case of fish and grain you have icons for trade goods, I gather, but with cows, it's a little picture instead of a simple icon. Looks out of place. And then you have a building between fish and iron that doesn't have any icons. It's a detailed image of some industry but I don't have any idea what it is. If it's an empty space it should probably not be in the middle.
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Jun 11, 2021 11:47
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ilitarist posted:It is comprehensible but there are still problems. Like in the case of fish and grain you have icons for trade goods, I gather, but with cows, it's a little picture instead of a simple icon. Looks out of place. And then you have a building between fish and iron that doesn't have any icons. It's a detailed image of some industry but I don't have any idea what it is. If it's an empty space it should probably not be in the middle. That building is probably just lacking an icon because of the early development. That's clearly a sawmill, and there will surely be a wood/timber trade good. Likewise with the cows, the trade goods symbols will certainly get a pass to make them match visually.
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Jun 11, 2021 11:51
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