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Gort posted:Civ 5 did this. You had a very limited number of happiness points to spend on cities and citizens, so the most efficient play was to take the "tall" social policy that gave big bonuses to your first three cities and not expand beyond those. Small correction: The big hindrance isn't happiness (only 3 unhappiness per city, pretty minor) but rather the 5% increase in tech/culture costs. Minor quibble but yea it took surprisingly little penalties to make settling more than 4-5 cities grossly inefficient, shame. ---------------- Regarding Admin cap: Honestly, the way 1.0 did things (core + sectors) was basically perfect, if it wasn't for that *teensy tiny* detail that the governor AI was [is] a fecal-slinging gibbering idiot that would defile anything it touched1. When admin cap was being detailed in the dev logs, someone in this thread totally called it in advance, claiming that it sounded like a poor mechanic that could be either totally ignored, or built exactly to negate according to some predefined formula, whichever was optimal according to meta; they even called it a fun tax iirc. Whoever that was has totally been vindicated imo. So! I'm happy to hear admin cap is having another do-over, I'm pretty sure whatever we get will be better, even if it doesn't end up aligning with many player's wishes for 'going tall'. 1Offtopic, but it's kinda a sticking point that can be seen in many (not exclusively Stellaris) examples; a system that would be perfectly fine except that it requires sane foundations, which are unfortunately absent, so the good is swept away and rebuilt as something precarious on whatever was present. Again, not a jab at exclusively Stellaris here.
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Jun 11, 2021 10:39
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Serephina posted:When admin cap was being detailed in the dev logs, someone in this thread totally called it in advance, claiming that it sounded like a poor mechanic that could be either totally ignored, or built exactly to negate according to some predefined formula, whichever was optimal according to meta; they even called it a fun tax iirc. Whoever that was has totally been vindicated imo. e: The thing you were supposed to worry about was cohesion because it magnified the penalties. Then cohesion went away so admin really was just something you ignored or ran a gimmick no admin penalty empire, then bureaucrats came in and that is when it became a fun tax/optimisation game. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Jun 11, 2021 |
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Jun 11, 2021 11:46
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Don't really like the idea of the growth of a society's cultural traditions and aspirations coming from swarms of paper-pushers. Honestly it feels like a lot of the game's functionality is being sacrificed to enable the very specific joke trope of Planet Bureaucracy.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:11
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But unity is not just cultural traditions and aspirations, it's also societal cohesion. Which suddenly makes bureaucrats fitting unity producers imho.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:23
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GunnerJ posted:Don't really like the idea of the growth of a society's cultural traditions and aspirations coming from swarms of paper-pushers. Honestly it feels like a lot of the game's functionality is being sacrificed to enable the very specific joke trope of Planet Bureaucracy. Wouldn't really be out of the ordinary for Stellaris, unfortunately. When was the last time you bought CaravanCoinz? I remember arguing at the time that yes, this was a funny joke in the developer diary, but now that the joke has been told, it will not be funny in the actual game, and will in fact just be a dumb thing nobody interacts with.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:24
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Reveilled posted:Wouldn't really be out of the ordinary for Stellaris, unfortunately. When was the last time you bought CaravanCoinz? I remember arguing at the time that yes, this was a funny joke in the developer diary, but now that the joke has been told, it will not be funny in the actual game, and will in fact just be a dumb thing nobody interacts with. Not an emptyquote.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:27
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Dirk the Average posted:I'm a little worried about what they're talking about with respect to research districts and habitats/ringworlds. I'd like them instead to turn more buildings into districts. Give every planet access to research districts, with some planets getting bonuses to different types of research, and with supporting buildings that buff them in ways similar to the current alloy foundries, mineral purification plants, etc.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:27
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Torrannor posted:But unity is not just cultural traditions and aspirations, it's also societal cohesion. Which suddenly makes bureaucrats fitting unity producers imho. Most of the use of Unity so far has been buying Traditions and getting Ascension Perks thereby, and in late game you can activate mega Edicts that are "aspirational" on a grand scale, so it's basically codified as the Culture Resource. Bureaucrats don't really provide either culture or "social cohesion" they keep government departments running, which matches their current function (and common sense) more than enabling fundamental shifts in social values etc
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Jun 11, 2021 12:33
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Aethernet posted:Not an emptyquote. Hey, I buy caravancoinz! ... because I still don't have the galatron achievements. 
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Jun 11, 2021 12:42
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Torrannor posted:But unity is not just cultural traditions and aspirations, it's also societal cohesion. Which suddenly makes bureaucrats fitting unity producers imho. Though explicitly stating that traditions are not naturally emerging memes but rather the results of empire wide concerted propaganda campaigns designed to shape your people's culture, yeah, bureaucrats make a lot of sense.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:43
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The real benefit of Caravaneers is the sex-parties and Megacorpse concerts 
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Jun 11, 2021 12:44
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There's a bunch of things you could do with bureaucrats as planet uniques. If they produced a couple of unity and also increased productivity of other pops by 2.5% and reduced housing and amenity use by 2.5% then it's something you'd ignore on rural planets but once a planet got above a certain level of complexity they'd become invaluable. But that's incompatible with GunnerJ posted:the very specific joke trope of Planet Bureaucracy.
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Jun 11, 2021 12:59
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I will say though that Unity being the sprawl-mitigating resource does have some elegant gameplay choice tradeoffs: do you keep your huge empire humming or advance your traditions? A benefit to playing tall (never having to worry about spending Unity to offset the penalties of being huge) is baked in. And if you're big, you can choose to just deal with the downsides to unlock Traditions if you want. I just wish the vehicle were something other than a job called "Bureaucrat."
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Jun 11, 2021 13:06
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Isn't changing the name of the job from bureaucrat to culture worker trivial to mod? Like, isn't that just changing a single line in the localization files?
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Jun 11, 2021 13:11
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It's interesting how that will play with materialists and spiritualists. Materialists get the research bonus, but spiritualists will (presumably) have an easier time mitigating tech cost inflation through their inherent higher unity production.
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Jun 11, 2021 13:13
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What’s the dwarven fantasy they mentioned?
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Jun 11, 2021 14:29
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Torrannor posted:It's interesting how that will play with materialists and spiritualists. Materialists get the research bonus, but spiritualists will (presumably) have an easier time mitigating tech cost inflation through their inherent higher unity production. It kind of implies spiritualist will be the go-to for a wide empire. Given that traditions are changing too, it looks like unity as a mechanic is getting a complete overhaul rather than a partial one.
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Jun 11, 2021 14:29
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a fatguy baldspot posted:What’s the dwarven fantasy they mentioned?
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Jun 11, 2021 15:32
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Aethernet posted:It kind of implies spiritualist will be the go-to for a wide empire. Given that traditions are changing too, it looks like unity as a mechanic is getting a complete overhaul rather than a partial one. That's what I got from the DDs so far. Tradition trees will receive an overhaul and become more flexible, while admin cap gets a complete make over to become empire capacity again, with unity being able to mitigate sprawl somewhat. Culture workers might get the axe, bueaurocrats will produce unity. And if you need unity to manage sprawl, the unity edicts might get abolished as well.
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Jun 11, 2021 17:19
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Yami Fenrir posted:Hey, I buy caravancoinz! I have been saved during a "stalemate to losing" war by pulling the 2k alloys out of the loot box.
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Jun 11, 2021 17:27
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Yami Fenrir posted:Hey, I buy caravancoinz!
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Jun 11, 2021 17:31
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Reveilled posted:Wouldn't really be out of the ordinary for Stellaris, unfortunately. When was the last time you bought CaravanCoinz? I remember arguing at the time that yes, this was a funny joke in the developer diary, but now that the joke has been told, it will not be funny in the actual game, and will in fact just be a dumb thing nobody interacts with. I usually buy out my reliquarys
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Jun 11, 2021 18:14
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I tend to play medium maps so I turn them off, also I like the intergalactic caravan dudes.
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Jun 11, 2021 18:47
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Splicer posted:I tend to play medium maps so I turn them off, also I like the intergalactic caravan dudes. I turn off the caravan dudes for the sole reason that they sometimes would get stuck on the edge of my empire trying to path into a hostile area. They would then enter my empire, trigger their dialogue (and even if I wanted what they were selling I could only buy it once anyway), and then leave to go straight into the hostiles again. Repeat ad nauseum until I get tired of the pop ups and kill either them or the hostiles (or both).
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Jun 11, 2021 18:55
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I wouldn't mind if some of the Caravan deals were actually good. There's no loving way trading 4 random specialist pops for a pittance of resources is a good deal. Sometimes they'll sell me a fleet of cruisers for dirt cheap but it's like finding a space unicorn when that deal appears.
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Jun 11, 2021 19:00
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Dirk the Average posted:I turn off the caravan dudes for the sole reason that they sometimes would get stuck on the edge of my empire trying to path into a hostile area. They would then enter my empire, trigger their dialogue (and even if I wanted what they were selling I could only buy it once anyway), and then leave to go straight into the hostiles again. Repeat ad nauseum until I get tired of the pop ups and kill either them or the hostiles (or both).
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Jun 11, 2021 19:03
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Some of the caravan deals are great, and some are situationally great, and some have been pretty terrible for a while and it has never been revisited to get balanced. For example the "get some ratchet pops for alloys" is an amazing deal for most empires, since you naturally get a couple points of trait modifications to remove their negatives, which leaves you with a tomb world, pyschic, trade boosting pop.
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Jun 11, 2021 19:57
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Splicer posted:Are you talking about the latest round of admin cap w/bureaucrats or the original version with minimal ways to increase? Because ignoring admin or pipping cap was the point of the original version, not a problem with it. It was an inhibitor so being twice as big was still better, just less than twice as better. The problem was that it felt like something you were supposed to worry about rather than just a part of the cost of being big. It's like if you had an entire section of the UI showing your mining station energy upkeep stressing you out that it keeps going up. Beg your pardon, I meant bureaucrats. I kinda just associate one with the other, and mentally refer to the previous cap as 'sprawl'.
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Jun 11, 2021 21:42
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Serephina posted:Beg your pardon, I meant bureaucrats. I kinda just associate one with the other, and mentally refer to the previous cap as 'sprawl'. While I was looking around I found this post about the original pirates: AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:This is why I dislike the mechanic - they are a fun tax and nothing more. They could abstract it and make it so they are a minor drain on your researces from orbital stations. Then you would have the option to ignore it if you are busy, and maybe it gradually gets worse. You could then do something like use a science vessel or a fleet to look for their base if you want to blow it up. Or you could just patrol with your fleets a little. I dunno, I just feel the current mechanic is pretty bad. Splicer fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jun 12, 2021 |
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Jun 12, 2021 00:37
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a fatguy baldspot posted:What’s the dwarven fantasy they mentioned? Fnon Gnop, scientist is taken by a strange mood. Fnon Gnop has created Viera'rg'l Rin, a durasteel transmogrifier Viera'rg'l Rin, "The Severity of Flowers" a durasteel transmogrifier. This is a durasteel transmogrifier. All craftblorgship is of the highest quality. It is decorated with durasteel and neutronium. This object menaces with spikes of zro. On the item is an image of Viera'rg'l Rin, the durasteel transmogrifier in living metal.
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Jun 12, 2021 00:56
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TalonDemonKing posted:Wanted to drop in about a comment that was made some 20~ pages back about the comparison to civ vs stellaris. Threadcromancy while I catch up with the thread but I do this too and it’s absolutely made the game more fun for me.
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Jun 12, 2021 01:26
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Splicer posted:gently caress you Muenster you Trade-inspiring rear end in a top hat. Hahaha awesome! I actually think the trade-drain mechanics are ok-ish, it's the pirate spawns that are asinine. What really bugs me is how trade is actually really easy to do (see EL, ES2, SoaSE, etc) it's just that binding literally everything to pops results in this weird "I guess this is the best way?" of implementing it. In an alternate universe there could be fundamental outputs not directly tied to/proportional to pops, but I don't really see how we'd get there from where we are currently.
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Jun 12, 2021 01:28
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Keeping piracy down is kind of an afterthought, I wish that their threat scaled with how much booty they're pilfering. If I'm throwing titans and tachyon battleships at whatever poor bastard is in my path a couple of lovely corvettes spawning is more of a nuisance than anything. Make me square off against a pirate king, I wanna throw down with space Blackbeard.
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Jun 12, 2021 03:17
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Invader Zym posted:Fnon Gnop, scientist is taken by a strange mood. ....Making your own relics could be kinda cool, but I presume an event chain(s) to pull this sort of thing would be a lot of work.
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Jun 12, 2021 03:19
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Piracy is kinda neat because it lets you level up admirals between wars by sticking them on patrol.Bloodly posted:....Making your own relics could be kinda cool, but I presume an event chain(s) to pull this sort of thing would be a lot of work. It's a Dwarf Fortress joke.
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Jun 12, 2021 03:56
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HelloSailorSign posted:Piracy is kinda neat because it lets you level up admirals between wars by sticking them on patrol. WHAT
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Jun 12, 2021 03:58
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Invader Zym posted:Fnon Gnop, scientist is taken by a strange mood. Gonna have a real bad time if you don't have that dark matter needed for a legendary captains chair.
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Jun 12, 2021 04:06
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Yep - this is how you get an early admiral edge - any fleet that reduces piracy gives admiral xp. It's not as good as a real fight, but it's absolutely something.
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Jun 12, 2021 04:13
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Anias posted:Yep - this is how you get an early admiral edge - any fleet that reduces piracy gives admiral xp. It's not as good as a real fight, but it's absolutely something. Today I learned
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Jun 12, 2021 11:38
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What if instead of manually setting patrol routes you could just click "patrol" as ship behavior and it would follow your trade routes around themselves. Or assign them to a starbase and it would patrol the route between the starbase and the planet automatically. Or there were non-trade uses for patrols so the whole trade piracy thing wasn't a chain of otherwise unintegrated mechanics.
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Jun 12, 2021 11:47
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