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So I heard back, they're not willing to budge on the starting salary, but they're going to provide me an additional $3,000 for moving expenses. I was already okay with the salary they were offering me, so this is a decent outcome. Not a bad return on investment for writing a few emails and keeping myself in suspense for 3~4 weeks.
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Jun 16, 2021 06:57
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Target Practice posted:Came back to me with a title change, salary, and 89k. Considering that a win. I went from 65k to 89k in three years so I feel like I've set myself up for future success. Now just imagine if it were a job at another company! If they raised to 90k, your probably worth more!
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Jun 16, 2021 11:12
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Gin_Rummy posted:Dealing with a recruiter right now who straight up ignored me on the first pass when I asked what the budgeted salary range would be ... Would it be too bridge burn-y to respond to “what is your salary expectation” with something along the lines of “every cent I’m worth, so tell me the budget or move along?” Eric the Mauve posted:"every cent I'm worth, so tell me the budget or move along" is pretty much exactly what I would tell them. Zero tolerance for lovely recruiters wasting your time. You should probably have already shitcanned this turd around the time your question was ignored. "Too bridge burn-y" isn't in your vocabulary right now, because the amount that you have continued talking to this recruiter is already too generous. You've folded for them once by allowing your important questions about the position to be ignored. You must not under any circumstances state a salary expectation. You must in all scenarios where the discussion proceeds secure the budget from the recruiter.
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Jun 16, 2021 13:35
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Recruiters are salespeople, trying to sell something to you so they can get a commission on the sale. Actually, even that is kind of a sideways way of looking at it. More to the point is this: recruiters are middlemen, trying to buy you so they can turn around and sell you to someone else for a profit. And the less money they can persuade you to sell yourself for, the more money they will get to keep for themselves on the resale. They try to frame their every interaction with you in such a way as to nonverbally communicate that you are not really worth much and they are doing you a favor by talking to you at all. But it's an illusion they're spinning. They need you more than you need them. You need to internalize that, all the way to the bottom of your soul. Do whatever it takes to set to the side your self-doubts and Impostor Syndrome, be an actor playing a role if you must, and the role is Supremely Valuable Person Everyone Wants A Piece Of. You have options. So many options. More options than there is time in the day to sort through. You control your interaction with these pissant middlemen. They had drat well better give you what you want, or you will not allow them to waste your time. Striking the right balance with this ultra confident demeanor and playing that role convincingly is a skill. You can, and should, practice it as often as you can. You don't need to be an rear end in a top hat (except to recruiters who are wasting your time). Quite the opposite, in fact, you should be polite and charming, but still at the same time 100% aware that, whoever the other party in the interaction is, they need you more than you need them. You know it and they know it and they know that you know it. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 13:49
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Yeah once I got over the hump of treating third party recruiters with zero respect my job hunt became way easier. Your bullshit threshold should be at or near zero when dealing with them.
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Jun 16, 2021 13:52
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Thank you, negotiation thread. You allowed me to get another $9k on top of a job offer and comp package beyond my wildest expectations.
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Jun 16, 2021 22:25
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Banzai 3 posted:Thank you, negotiation thread. You allowed me to get another $9k on top of a job offer and comp package beyond my wildest expectations. 
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Jun 16, 2021 22:27
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Does any of the recruiter advice change when I specify that this crappy recruiter is not third party, but that company's own internal recruiter?
Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 22:53
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Gin_Rummy posted:Does any of the recruiter advice change when I specify that this crappy recruiter is not third party, but that company's own internal recruiter? If that's the case it *really* depends on how badly you want/need the job. You should still have an extremely low bullshit threshold with any recruiter though, internal or external
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Jun 17, 2021 00:52
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PIZZA.BAT posted:If that's the case it *really* depends on how badly you want/need the job. You should still have an extremely low bullshit threshold with any recruiter though, internal or external I don't badly want or need it, based on what I've been told in my initial phone interview with the people I'd be working with. But if it paid pretty well (hint: it almost definitely won't) I wouldn't be running away from it or anything. In any case, I basically just ghosted the dude because I was so pissed off at the gall of his response to my last email. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jun 17, 2021 |
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Jun 17, 2021 00:54
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Gin_Rummy posted:I don't badly want or need it, based on what I've been told in my initial phone interview with the people I'd be working with. But if it paid pretty well (hint: it almost definitely won't) I wouldn't be running away from it or anything. In any case, I basically just ghosted the dude because I was so pissed off at the gall of his response to my last email. If this is how they treat people who they'd like to hire, imagine how working there will be like. These kind of red flags are great in eliminating toxic employers.
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Jun 17, 2021 13:24
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Gin_Rummy posted:Does any of the recruiter advice change when I specify that this crappy recruiter is not third party, but that company's own internal recruiter? No, though the activity certainly had the initial smell of 3rd party recruiter. That the internal recruiters conduct themselves so should be your hint about how to evaluate the opportunity. If you feel like it you could reopen the door on the condition that the position's budget is disclosed, otherwise I approve of ghosting. You got more important things to do with your time.
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Jun 17, 2021 16:44
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So I've collected three offers over the last few months. They all lie along the same lines of my current compensation so I didn't pull the trigger. It seems like an unnecessary risk to switch jobs with nothing to off set that risk. It is reassuring that I'm being paid what I should be, though, so this process hasn't been a total bust. Latest offer wants to set up a call and negotiate. In my mind, salary bump, pto bump, signing bonus, or combination of the three seems like the only way to make a jump into the unknown palatable. I guess what I'm asking is - I know they presented a reasonable offer, so how do I justify getting more? I'm thinking that it'd be best to cut myself off from that kind of thinking and just propose "This is what it would take to get me to leave my current position" Re: Recruiter chat. Good recruiters exist. They know about jobs that aren't listed, they know exactly who you'll interview with, what questions they'll ask, and which of your strengths to highlight. They are forthcoming about salary and who they are hiring for because they know the pay is competitive, and they aren't worried about you applying directly because they know the client so well that you're unlikely to get in without the recruiters help. They are also a very small minority of recruiters. If I engage with a recruiter, my first questions are who is the position with and what is the range. If they play coy I just move on.
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Jun 23, 2021 15:14
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Appreciate the recruiter chat! I went ahead and just applied directly, now I gotta figure out how to blow him off. He didn't respond on the pay scale question though, and had fluff to say when I asked him if he had the contract to fill the position.
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Jun 23, 2021 15:39
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You don't have to figure out a drat thing. You're done with him. Block his number and don't respond to his emails.
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Jun 23, 2021 15:42
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I believe the logic for justifying a number is to not justify it openly. You’re best off just telling them what it would take to get you to move. Do your calculation for what makes it work for you, then pitch the number and nothing more. (thread tell me if I’m wrong here)
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Jun 23, 2021 15:51
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Yeah you don't need to explain yourself. Just give the number you want (with another +10% added). I had a recruiter respond to that with, "Doesn't the prestige of working for our company add anything?" I almost laughed in her face.
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Jun 23, 2021 15:57
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bamhand posted:Yeah you don't need to explain yourself. Just give the number you want (with another +10% added). I had a recruiter respond to that with, "Doesn't the prestige of working for our company add anything?" I almost laughed in her face. "Prestige doesn't pay for my groceries or mortage"
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Jun 23, 2021 16:10
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Prestige sounds like the “exposure” of the business world.
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Jun 23, 2021 16:57
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In this case, she actually wasn't wrong. But I still wrangled an additional 10% out of the offer. It was big 4 consulting doing audit for financial intuitions. So name actually was pretty helpful for when I decided consulting wasn't for me and ended up back in industry. My new industry salary was 50% higher than when I left my industry job 18 months ago.
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Jun 23, 2021 17:34
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Got an offer where the bump in starting salary almost matches the salary at my first real job; kinda want to negotiate it up just to hit that. Real question: how do you evaluate stock options as part of your comp? This is a start-up, post-series A but profitable. I'd be giving up my options in my current place which is much closer to paying out around half a mil
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Jun 23, 2021 20:01
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Omne posted:Real question: how do you evaluate stock options as part of your comp? This is a start-up, post-series A but profitable. I'd be giving up my options in my current place which is much closer to paying out around half a mil If it's a start-up, even if it's passed some rounds of funding and is profitable, I would evaluate them about as much as Monopoly money.
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Jun 23, 2021 21:33
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I know some folks have asked for a signing bonus or similar to offset the loss of options; don't have a read on your situation specifically but may be worth an ask?
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Jun 24, 2021 00:16
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Omne posted:Got an offer where the bump in starting salary almost matches the salary at my first real job; kinda want to negotiate it up just to hit that. This is going to be completely dependent on your risk tolerance. I won't even work at a start-up at all with my tolerance level, for example, and I value bonuses / stock options at 0% of proposed value until they are dollars in my bank account. Someone more in experience in start-ups can give you a less cynical answer, hopefully.
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Jun 24, 2021 00:51
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Omne posted:Got an offer where the bump in starting salary almost matches the salary at my first real job; kinda want to negotiate it up just to hit that. they are worth $0 until a liquidity event and that is the best way to think of them.
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Jun 24, 2021 01:48
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JohnCompany posted:I know some folks have asked for a signing bonus or similar to offset the loss of options; don't have a read on your situation specifically but may be worth an ask? This is my best course of action, though I highly doubt I'm getting a signing bonus anywhere close to what my options are currently valued at. Sundae posted:This is going to be completely dependent on your risk tolerance. I won't even work at a start-up at all with my tolerance level, for example, and I value bonuses / stock options at 0% of proposed value until they are dollars in my bank account. I hear ya. I look at whether they're profitable, if they hit the rule of 40, etc. to gauge how risky it is. I also look at if they're achieved product-market fit and the caliber of their investors. If you get a good enough read on things from there, it should give a sense of how strong the company is. Nothing's guaranteed, of course. I guess I'm trying to see if I can exchange one lottery ticket for another of equal value.
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Jun 24, 2021 01:49
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Omne posted:This is my best course of action, though I highly doubt I'm getting a signing bonus anywhere close to what my options are currently valued at. Ask them for a signing bonus that allows you to exercise options that you have vested in your current place, if you believe in your current place, and ask them for more options. They're not going to pay you real money for potential upside you have at the current place.
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Jun 24, 2021 02:08
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To highlight the importance of negotiating. I negotiated an offer I was already happy with and got bumped up a level for an extra 25k a year. Even if you're happy with the offer, negotiate.
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Jun 24, 2021 18:01
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Omne posted:Got an offer where the bump in starting salary almost matches the salary at my first real job; kinda want to negotiate it up just to hit that. take this from someone who took options from a company that was looking really successful and had major investors: it's to be treated as monopoly money until you can actually sell it on a market signed, a guy who wound up with a pile of monopoly money
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Jun 25, 2021 01:05
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PIZZA.BAT posted:take this from someone who took options from a company that was looking really successful and had major investors: it's to be treated as monopoly money until you can actually sell it on a market I used to work with a few folks that worked at Motive Inc in the mid 2000’s, and for a brief moment in time some of them were fairly wealthy on paper. Their options didn’t survive the lockup period in the money. I made a little money over a decade ago on a small number of options I was granted, but I never counted on them ever being worth something.
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Jun 25, 2021 01:42
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I had options go from a life changing amount to zero before any of them vested
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Jun 25, 2021 06:48
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Yeah the correct answer to "how much are my pre IPO options worth?" the practical answer is, "zero". That's the sober truth. I recently exercised $15,000 worth of options @ about $4.50 each, with a potential $60-100/share value. Post tax depending on your meet and valuation, that's $200-650,000 after tax. Assuming Biden didn't neuter long term capital gains taxes But we merged/got aquired by a slightly larger company. After meeting their engineers, I'm pretty certain they'll never go public, and I just lost a 2018 Honda Civic worth of money I'll probably never recover, and this kind of loss isn't tax deductible So don't bet on your options. Always optimize for salary if you can
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Jun 25, 2021 07:07
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What is the rationale for looking for a job, in a field where equity compensation is the norm, at a non-public company if you're going to value non-liquid equity at zero? The company certainly doesn't value it at zero and will include the expected value in the total compensation they're targeting. It would seem that by doing this you'rr setting yourself up to be under compensated and would be better served by targeting companies that have liquid equity.
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Jun 25, 2021 09:27
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I mean you're not going to get away from it in certain industries. Leaving a job paying 100k/year and taking a job at 60k with 40k shares is probably a bad idea (financially). If it's great for your career and you don't mind the pay cut go for it. But you can't look at those shares and value them at anything but 0. They're worth nothing until they're worth something, and in a lot of industries they could turn back into nothing overnight. Edit: rationale really depends on person, their goals, etc. It's possible to get a raise and then get equity on top. Mr Newsman fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 11:29
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Does the value of options and RSUs change at publicly traded companies?
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Jun 25, 2021 13:00
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Very much so. RSUs are basically just cash, but at a varying amount based on the market when they vest. Options are still who knows, but instead of them being worthless nearly all the time, it's more like...most of the time.
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Jun 25, 2021 13:16
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99.997% of the time. They are worth $0. Anyone who tries to persuade you to take less salary and replace it with shares (that you can't actually convert to cash by any means short of an actual IPO) is trying to rip you off.
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Jun 25, 2021 13:35
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Yes. What I mean is, if you work for a public company, and they give you options that vest, they have a higher chance of being convertible at first opportunity to cash than non public companies. Never take options instead of salary, and RSUs are risky.
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Jun 25, 2021 13:51
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Mine are going to be a very small portion of compensation, and I gave a value of very little (1/2 a percent of total comp maybe?) during negotiation. I had multiple offers, but the other wasn't really competitive in salary. So there was no need to even compare them for compensation purposes. It'll be nice to see how they work tho, especially with not much value expected and small tax costs.
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Jun 25, 2021 14:22
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Important to note in my circumstance that I'm not taking less salary for options; my salary will be increasing 25%. What I was trying to compare was options in a late-stage, $2B company that at most recent 409A are valued at $250k vs. options in a post-series A-but-profitable company.
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Jun 25, 2021 14:49
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