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I mean, that's kinda like saying "isekai sounds lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of them?"
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Sep 12, 2021 08:46
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? Same reason there are a ton of isekai power fantasies. They've got an easy enough framework to replicate, mesh reasonably well with RPGs and other video games, and they let nerdy readers/writers dream about being Important.
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Sep 12, 2021 09:19
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? Sometimes you prefer a trashy takeout meal instead of a gourmet dinner. My favorite at the moment is 'I'm a Martial Art Villainess but I'm the Strongest!' Which combines cultivator, with isekai but with a female MC and some romance sprinkled in. https://mangadex.org/title/15d88ad6-19e7-48b6-b5db-8107fcccb220/i-m-a-martial-art-villainess-but-i-m-the-strongest
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Sep 12, 2021 09:20
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Been reading the Knights and Magic manga and it's really good. Just thought you guys should know that.
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Sep 12, 2021 09:42
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? There are many fantastic series, and some are very wholesome. It’s a genre.
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Sep 12, 2021 12:51
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? Humans suck.
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Sep 12, 2021 15:16
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? Because it's mostly a backdrop for these people to have incredibly stupid interpersonal problems. It's a soap opera backing that allows people to show up and exit and do extremely stupid things like having evil twins or being replaced by imposters.
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Sep 12, 2021 15:24
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"Cultivation" I think has kind of become a shorthand for a lot of works based on xianxia and seems to be mostly used as a genre name by western readers and writers? I've mostly stuck to danmei (BL) and a lot of those have a xianxia setting with characters who are cultivators but that don't follow that type of story structure at all. I think maybe the litRPG overlaps are mostly with the ones that are "progression" fantasies where the whole point is getting stronger rather than just being a setting that has cultivation as an element? It's like any genre where you're going to have various conventions and tropes and saying it's all "unwholesome" or some poo poo (what does that even mean lol) is pretty dismissive. I think it's helpful to know what kind of story or subgenre has tropes you dislike, but since "cultivation" just as a magic system or whatever is so broadly used hopefully you don't see that word and go NOPE based on assumptions. This blog has a pretty good glossary of some of the common terms you'd see in those genres which might be helpful. This blog post has a fairly simple breakdown of some of the common elements that's geared toward western readers. I just googled a bit to find these but you can find a lot of similar information and tons of reddit posts explaining stuff to people if you do the same.
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Sep 12, 2021 15:29
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Swilo posted:this whole setting sounds really lame and unwholesome, why are there a billion of these series? I think part of it is actually because of Chinese propaganda. Webnovels have tons of restrictions on what is acceptable. You can't have works that have supernatural elements unless it uses "science" to explain it. (psuedoscience bullshit is ok as long it has chinese origins though). Having a modern day setting is asking for trouble from the censors, and china has banned historical settings too. Having a setting full of Chinese culture stuff where there isn't a central government to oppose bypasses most of the censor issues. (Also, a lot of them are pro-genocide too, even supposedly characters that are pacifists will suddenly be completely ok with massacring a race of sentient people because they are the enemies of humanity.)
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Sep 12, 2021 17:27
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IShallRiseAgain posted:I think part of it is actually because of Chinese propaganda. Webnovels have tons of restrictions on what is acceptable. You can't have works that have supernatural elements unless it uses "science" to explain it. (psuedoscience bullshit is ok as long it has chinese origins though). Having a modern day setting is asking for trouble from the censors, and china has banned historical settings too. Just being pedantic, but that’s a result of Chinese censorship, not propaganda
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Sep 12, 2021 19:06
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thetoughestbean posted:Just being pedantic, but that’s a result of Chinese censorship, not propaganda No, promoting martial arts/chinese traditional medicine/etc. is part of their propoganda agenda to promote Chinese culture. Its why cultivation stuff gets a free pass.
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Sep 12, 2021 19:14
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Both are hand in hand.
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Sep 12, 2021 19:51
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thetoughestbean posted:So what is a cultivator? I don’t actually know the origin of the term/trope Here is an example of cultivator trash: quote:Chu Qing, a Swordsman, accidentally entered the Fairy Realm 300 years ago. During those 300 years, he began his cultivation journey. Upon reaching the Realm of Eternity, he unexpectedly opened the Hall of Time and Space and returned to the time he was 17 years old and lived on the Earth. But, it turned out that it wasn't the same Earth he once lived in. It was a reversed world where Women act like Men and vice-versa! And hence, his journey to conquer all the strong women of this 'Reverse World' and return to his previous world began. Still manages to be entertaining for the same reasons terrible Isekai is entertaining. Don't think too hard about it.
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Sep 12, 2021 20:28
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Is Second Coming of Gluttony a xianxia/cultivation story or is it an Isekai? That one wasn't bad and actually stuck the landing.
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Sep 12, 2021 20:32
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It's Korean so it's more rooted in MMO grinding than anything else. I only read it up to the point where he actually goes to other world before getting bored but it certainly fit that trend. Sindai fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 12, 2021 21:02
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it has an interesting idea in that despite the incomplete regression that cured the mc of his gambling addiction, he is still the same person with the the same personality flaws. the result of that is that he takes insane risks with his life but because he survives each time he gets strong at a ridiculous rate. unfortunately there is also the rest of it, which is sort of dull.
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Sep 12, 2021 21:42
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MMO grinding and cultivation have a lot in common and a lot of modern works link the two.
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Sep 13, 2021 00:32
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Describing cultivation as an MMO pyramid scheme is pretty much right on the money. Its Free-to-play we swear! Immortality guaranteed!
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Sep 13, 2021 02:25
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Everything Burrito posted:It's like any genre where you're going to have various conventions and tropes and saying it's all "unwholesome" or some poo poo (what does that even mean lol) is pretty dismissive. I think it's helpful to know what kind of story or subgenre has tropes you dislike, but since "cultivation" just as a magic system or whatever is so broadly used hopefully you don't see that word and go NOPE based on assumptions. By unwholesome I meant all the aspects of pyramid schemes, focusing on getting stronger to the exclusion of all else, hoarding resources and backstabbing, etc that people were bringing up. I didn't mean to imply every story is the same but even following a character who eschews all those mechanics of the world it would be a hard sell to me if that stuff exists as anything but the butt of jokes or a system to be dismantled  I appreciate all the discussion, I'm obviously coming to this from a naive view. IShallRiseAgain posted:I think part of it is actually because of Chinese propaganda. Webnovels have tons of restrictions on what is acceptable. You can't have works that have supernatural elements unless it uses "science" to explain it. (psuedoscience bullshit is ok as long it has chinese origins though). Having a modern day setting is asking for trouble from the censors, and china has banned historical settings too. 
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Sep 13, 2021 05:06
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doomrider7 posted:Been reading the Knights and Magic manga and it's really good. Just thought you guys should know that. Is this the mech one, because it’s translated by CR and I really like it as well.
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Sep 13, 2021 05:51
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M_Gargantua posted:Describing cultivation as an MMO pyramid scheme is pretty much right on the money. Its Free-to-play we swear! Immortality guaranteed! the hit spiritual journey now with free trial up to level 60
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Sep 13, 2021 06:36
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as far as ethics and culture goes, cultivators are basically post-apocalyptic raiders with motorcycles and neon mohawks. unfortunately, there is no end of the century savior to be found so their only opponents are other raiders.
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Sep 13, 2021 06:55
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Is that post-apocalypse reference literal? I see that in a lot of Chinese titles.
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Sep 13, 2021 08:12
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LorneReams posted:Is this the mech one, because it’s translated by CR and I really like it as well. It is. It's the one where the guy gets reincarnated into a pseudo-medieval world, but with mechs and magic. Mucho Good.
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Sep 13, 2021 09:25
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Swilo posted:By unwholesome I meant all the aspects of pyramid schemes, focusing on getting stronger to the exclusion of all else, hoarding resources and backstabbing, etc that people were bringing up. I didn't mean to imply every story is the same but even following a character who eschews all those mechanics of the world it would be a hard sell to me if that stuff exists as anything but the butt of jokes or a system to be dismantled I'm in the same boat as you tbh, and I think that despite being written by a guy who likes the genre enough to write 167 chapters of it in 8 months, beware of chicken does too. the mc is a dude who reincarnates and runs far away from all that, and then the story makes it clear that it's better to improve yourself through productive work, and building up connections with each other than it is to take weird drugs and beat up people weaker than each other. one of the characters is someone who has been struggling to "break through" to the next level of power for months/years, and what finally does it is the main character showing her kindness, and feeding her a good meal
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Sep 13, 2021 11:36
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doomrider7 posted:It is. It's the one where the guy gets reincarnated into a pseudo-medieval world, but with mechs and magic. Mucho Good. It's dumb as poo poo, but I happen to love it and wish they would continue the Anime although they went in a widely different direction at the end so I don't know how possible it would be to course correct.
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Sep 13, 2021 17:16
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egg tats posted:I'm in the same boat as you tbh, and I think that despite being written by a guy who likes the genre enough to write 167 chapters of it in 8 months, beware of chicken does too. the mc is a dude who reincarnates and runs far away from all that, and then the story makes it clear that it's better to improve yourself through productive work, and building up connections with each other than it is to take weird drugs and beat up people weaker than each other. it's somewhat betrayed by how the mc lives his life as a farmer as he pleases, but that also results in the accumulation of power. why don't all the cultivators just act like human beings for once? well that's because if they showed weakness/had anything of value they would be immediately torn apart by a pack of feral peers.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:27
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:it's somewhat betrayed by how the mc lives his life as a farmer as he pleases, but that also results in the accumulation of power. why don't all the cultivators just act like human beings for once? well that's because if they showed weakness/had anything of value they would be immediately torn apart by a pack of feral peers. The entire point of cultivation is choosing a path to walk down and following it. The MC choosing the path of chill farm life, doing right by the people around him and building a family is cultivation. Self actualisation is the peak of cultivation. Just most people want to self-actualise into Literal Godhood in these stories
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Sep 13, 2021 21:05
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One simple trick! Cultivators hate him
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Sep 13, 2021 21:08
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The entire point of cultivation is choosing a path to walk down and following it. The MC choosing the path of chill farm life, doing right by the people around him and building a family is cultivation. Self actualisation is the peak of cultivation. Just most people want to self-actualise into Literal Godhood in these stories It should be noted that in actual real world practice of neidan, which cultivation stories are based on, the ultimate goal is immortality by total immersion of the self into the universe such that there is distinction between the two. Which is neat! (And requires a hell of a lot of training and growth of one’s internal spiritual landscape.)
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Sep 13, 2021 21:27
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The entire point of cultivation is choosing a path to walk down and following it. The MC choosing the path of chill farm life, doing right by the people around him and building a family is cultivation. Self actualisation is the peak of cultivation. Just most people want to self-actualise into Literal Godhood in these stories except there are also a whole lot of regular farmers who do not automatically acquire magical powers via farming.
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Sep 13, 2021 21:31
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:except there are also a whole lot of regular farmers who do not automatically acquire magical powers via farming. I thought the whole point was that he was in the Cultivation school and then paid his dues and dropped out? So maybe doing a few months of work is a limit breaker and you can continue to grow by throwing yourself into something you enjoy, like farming or blacksmithing or cooking or whatever and everyone else hasn't noticed because the world's full of Vergils from the Devil May Cry Series.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:16
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it's just a flaw of the premise. self-actualization isn't really a path to power, or else cultivators would randomly spring up all over the place. infusing qi into everything is the actual secret to his success. well that, and being a frankenstein's monster of two dead men roughly fused together.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:27
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RareAcumen posted:I thought the whole point was that he was in the Cultivation school and then paid his dues and dropped out? Two side characters "awakened" without having to go through any procedures, though they were still basically cultivating. Just a different kind.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:51
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Cultivation isn't purely Chinese either. There is a lot of Korean cultivation web novels, and they've even grown more popular on Japanese web novel sites, to the point where they are starting to get as big as isekai. Korean ones tend to be lower power level, things like Mount Hua Reincarnation/Volcanic Age or Descent of the Demonic Master or that Heavenly Demon series that got real popular for awhile. But at their core they still have 'I cultivate energy inside of my body that gives me super powers'. Even something like Nano Machine is a cultivation series. Beware of Chicken is 100% a parody of the norms of these settings, but yeah it kinda lost me for the same reasons as it lost God drat candy. It tries to set up the cultivators of the world as insane idiot madmen murderers, but them no one cares about this random guy making ultra magic progress, and every cultivator who comes into his story is either weaker than him or his allies or reasonable and not the insane idiot madmen murderers, and thus becomes an ally. It's still a funny comedy series, but it never tries to answer the question of 'so why isn't anyone kicking over his sandcastle'
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Sep 13, 2021 22:57
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the korean murim stuff is still basically cultivation, but it is amped up martial arts instead of tapping into the magic of the universe. they are both still mostly about number going up and fighting. however, one key difference is that no one is living for thousands of years in most murim settings.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:02
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Yeah, they keep a lot of the same set dressing (pills, cultivating internal energy, martial art clans and lineages) but someone who is 200 years old is an amazing post peak shocking person rather than there being a council of 100 2000 year old dudes who run the world.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:24
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If you haven't been keeping up with BoC it seems like it's soon going to reach the point where the farm gang aren't flying under everyone's radars. I suppose I'm mostly reading to find out what happens then.
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Sep 14, 2021 00:32
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Yeah, Beware of Chicken is definitely laying the groundwork for poo poo to hit the fan in a bunch of ways. You have multiple 'disciples' out in the world now spreading the word and there are 3 different groups of people looking for the MC for various reasons and closing in on the farm. We'll see how it ultimately plays out, but right now there is definitely looking to be some serious conflict brewing between farm gang and a bunch of much stronger people who's interest has been piqued.
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Sep 14, 2021 00:41
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I guess the issue of the setup is that the only reason MC seems so overpowered is that he moved to the single most Qi-starved region of the nation, so even the local cultivators are completely outclassed. Which raises more questions than it answers. How does anyone non-cultivator live a normal life elsewhere? Wouldn't the Azure Hills cultivators essentially live in fear and subservience to cultivators from other regions? What's the economic difference, shouldn't everywhere else be significantly more technologically and economically advanced? Oh well. This is just a silly story. And don't rule out some power scaling shenanigans in the future, as it turns out Jin is a very special boy.
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Sep 14, 2021 00:56
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