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Cessna posted:TCs in my day would wear a flak jacket and a comm helmet. The comm helmet was/is useless for protection, Including protection from the press.  (Image searching that fed me an article on that whole debacle which I'd never seen before:) https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2013/11/dukakis-and-the-tank-099119/
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Sep 13, 2021 19:32
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Have you tried not getting shot at
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Sep 13, 2021 19:32
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:didn't soviet tankers wear basically soft bump cap looking things because the main mode of head injury was bashing your head against something inside the turret? Yeah, the typical Soviet AFV crew helmet looks a bit like a boxer's practice headgear:  These are terrible head protection; they're padded, but soft, so they won't dissipate any sort of impact* like a hard shell would. *Edit: I'm not talking about a bullet or the like; these won't protect you from banging your head against a bulkhead, which happens often. Cessna fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 19:32
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Put a tank on your tank so you can be outside of your tank while enjoying the safety of being in a tank
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Sep 13, 2021 19:33
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Cessna posted:Yeah, the typical Soviet AFV crew helmet looks a bit like a boxer's practice headgear: interesting I always assumed the ridged bits were stronger, like the foam on a bike helmet or something of that nature what are they for
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Sep 13, 2021 19:45
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Cessna posted:TCs in my day would wear a flak jacket and a comm helmet Is a comm helmet different than a CVC helmet?
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Sep 13, 2021 20:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:interesting I always assumed the ridged bits were stronger, like the foam on a bike helmet or something of that nature They're just padding. I'm not sure exactly what material they're stuffed with, but it's soft, like a dense fabric. Scratch Monkey posted:Is a comm helmet different than a CVC helmet? No, sorry if that was confusing. It's just just different terminology to refer to the same thing.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:22
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Phanatic posted:Including protection from the press. I read (past tense) a lot of lovely politics books from the 90's and every one of them brought up this photo at every opportunity. How stupid and childish he looked! Like he was playing dress-up! How silly! When I finally saw the picture though I don't get it and never have. It's a tanker's helmet? That's how it looks? It's a piece of setting-appropriate PPE, being worn properly? The photo is credited with sinking his campaign. But it's the same helmet that anyone manning that position would wear. Does that picture look silly to you, fellow posters? To me it looks a little silly, but no more silly than anyone wearing a large helmet does.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:28
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Xiahou Dun posted:Tank commanders wearing weird armored diving bell things. This is what I yearn to see. How bullet resistant is the polycarbonate they make fighter aircraft canopies out of?
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Sep 13, 2021 20:30
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Uncle Enzo posted:I read (past tense) a lot of lovely politics books from the 90's and every one of them brought up this photo at every opportunity. How stupid and childish he looked! Like he was playing dress-up! How silly! It's not that the helmet looked especially silly, it's that he wasn't "in" enough for the news to stop talking about how silly he looked.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:33
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Uncle Enzo posted:I read (past tense) a lot of lovely politics books from the 90's and every one of them brought up this photo at every opportunity. How stupid and childish he looked! Like he was playing dress-up! How silly! 
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Sep 13, 2021 20:39
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Cessna posted:Done: It's also part of the reasoning behind the TC's hatch design on the Panzer V, though as demonstrated by Nicholas Moran it wasn't great when the tank is on fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB-Rt0GRipo For extra fun there's a blooper at the end where the crank handle for the hatch falls off
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Sep 13, 2021 20:44
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My understanding is that Dukakis had pushed to defund the m1 tank so him riding in one was fairly hypocritical and ironic.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:45
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wiegieman posted:It's not that the helmet looked especially silly, it's that he wasn't "in" enough for the news to stop talking about how silly he looked. Its a bunch of things, the "MICHAEL DUKAKIS" sticker on the front of the CVC, the suit and tie under grey coveralls, the dorky finger point. It was just goofy all around. It also highlights how little it used to take to sink a political candidates chances.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:54
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Cessna posted:They're just padding. I'm not sure exactly what material they're stuffed with, but it's soft, like a dense fabric. I loved the Soviet sausage caps, owe my life to one too. The aberrations we had in FDF Were the Soviet tanker caps with a new german intercom with bulging earpieces stuffed in. Personally can attest 1 1LT, 1 CPT and myself beibg saved by them- the others had hatch-related oofs and I had a loose track pad hit me in the dome at the ebd of Its flight arc. The societ throat mikes on their old stuff suck though, saw mt-LB crews use those.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:57
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The Dukakis pic was also low key about throwing shade at his military career vs. Bush's. Basically he spent a couple of years in a non-wartime Korea, while Bush got shot down in combat. In the Clinton years you'd hear the same kinds of people who would gripe about him being a draft dodger talk about Dukakis more or less the same way, conveniently ignoring the fact that he actually joined the military and served. The thing that really sank him, though, was Willie Horton. The tank thing was good for some cheap laughs, but Horton went straight to the core of the late 80's crime panic. It also had much more long lasting repercussions. Much to the chagrin of a fair number of politicians who are still active today, it is not hard at all to find clips of democrats tripping over themselves in the early 90s to show how tough on crime they were, and a lot of that comes back to Dukakis, criminal justice reform, Willie Horton, and the massive election-year shitstorm that caused. edit: here's the ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9j6Wfdq3o Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 20:58
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It's really funny to juxtapose something like Dean scream and Trump mimicking a disabled guy on stage
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Sep 13, 2021 21:48
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Valtonen posted:I loved the Soviet sausage caps, owe my life to one too. The aberrations we had in FDF Were the Soviet tanker caps with a new german intercom with bulging earpieces stuffed in. Personally can attest 1 1LT, 1 CPT and myself beibg saved by them- the others had hatch-related oofs and I had a loose track pad hit me in the dome at the ebd of Its flight arc. I'll take a hard shell CVC any time.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:11
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Nessus posted:Had he been a Republican, I imagine it would have been completely unremarked-upon, perhaps considered mildly laudatory. But at a certain point this veers away from milhist as such Arguably "Mission Accomplished" was a rough equivalent.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:07
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aphid_licker posted:It's really funny to juxtapose something like Dean scream and Trump mimicking a disabled guy on stage To bring this around to military history we will probably never have a Vietnam that as president of the United States. Though the fact that our presidents are now being elected close to their '80s may leave room for some.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:26
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Cessna posted:I'll take a hard shell CVC any time. It all depends on the type of impact you want to protect against. Hard shells are there to prevent things from touching your skull but don't do anything about brain damage from your brain bouncing around your skull. Most of the protection is performed by the soft(er) padding under the hard part (of a hard shell helmet). If the main surfaces your head could hit are smooth then the hard shell isn't going to do much, it is only against pointy parts that the hard shell will help spread the load over more padding to help slow the deceleration of your brain against your skull (yes I know deceleration isn't technically correct). Also if the bumps are low energy then the soft padding will be plenty. As an example the hard outer shell of a motorcycle helmet is there to protect against sharp points like kerbs and to protect the expanded polystyrene soft(er) inner layer from the weather and the abrasion of the road. It is the polystyrene that does the actual protection of the skull and brain but has to be pretty rigid to work at 70+mph.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:27
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Foxtrot_13 posted:It all depends on the type of impact you want to protect against. There are plenty of pointy parts - edges - inside an AFV. I stand by my choice.
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Sep 14, 2021 00:24
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I suspect that this is one of those porque no los dos moments. I doubt the hard US helmet is just a bunch of steel with no internal padding. If we can make a motorcycle helmet that combines rigid with having effective force-dissipating soft internal padding I'm going to assume that the military can devise a tank helmet that does the same. Either that or we should just start mailing tankers motorcycle helmets.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:00
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Foxtrot_13 posted:It all depends on the type of impact you want to protect against. I drew a lovely mspaint why i think this is wrong  as you can see (maybe) a greater area of padding is involved when the user's head is protected by a rigid helmet. This is because when a round object meets a flat plane, the point of impact is always a point; more padding will be engaged than if the user's head is contacting a pointy object but a rigid helmet that is also round will engage even more padding than that. More padding crushed = more deceleration before impact = less trauma. As an aside I would not have wanted to do humvee rollover training, which is the closest I ever got to vehicular combat, without some type of hard padded helmet. A soft helmet might be ok for getting bounced around on a bumpy road but in a crash, rollover, or combat event I would definitely want the hard helmet.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:22
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Cyrano4747 posted:I doubt the hard US helmet is just a bunch of steel with no internal padding. It has as much padding as a Russian tanker's helmet, plus a hard shell over that.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:30
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Yeah is there any evidence of people actually wearing helmets without some kind of soft padding inside ever in history? Many modern cloth hats have liners or soft sweatbands to protect our delicate heads, so I doubt there were lots of ancient Sumerian soldiers rocking a bronze skullcap by itself. Obviously it's hard to prove a negative especially because anything you'd make padding out of isn't going to do as well on an archaeological timescale as a metal helmet.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:31
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yeah is there any evidence of people actually wearing helmets without some kind of soft padding inside ever in history? Many modern cloth hats have liners or soft sweatbands to protect our delicate heads, so I doubt there were lots of ancient Sumerian soldiers rocking a bronze skullcap by itself. Obviously it's hard to prove a negative especially because anything you'd make padding out of isn't going to do as well on an archaeological timescale as a metal helmet. Well, it depends on how you define soft padding. I don't know about centurion helmets or whatever, but a lot of WW2-ish era helmets have a liner that's more or less supported on the head by a ring of plastic or cloth or whatever that in turn is held onto the helmet by straps and rivets. It basically ends up acting like a kind of suspension that holds the helmet up off your head, and gives you a bit of bump protection, but isn't quite what you'd think of as padding. There's sometimes a bit of fabric wadded up back there to give a little bit, but in aggregate we're talking less than what you'd get with a couple of balled up handkerchiefs. edit: East German helmets have some actual foam padding, but again it's not much. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 01:47
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This is the inside of a ca-1940-50ish Swiss helmet for example. 
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Sep 14, 2021 01:53
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Ah, that's a good question that actually helps me define exactly what I meant : I said "padding" but what I meant is "anything to stop the helmet from smacking you in the dome", so something like a modern construction hardhat would count by my definition that I just made up based on tummy feels. I was thinking about it via analogies with stuff more people put on our heads regularly hence the comment about hats. But even like a fencing mask has padding or something, you don't just plop in on your head ; and while I don't know much about operating tanks, I'm guessing you can get hit harder by a tank than in a fencing match. And I do longsword so that's up there in terms of recreational head-smacking.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:Ah, that's a good question that actually helps me define exactly what I meant : I said "padding" but what I meant is "anything to stop the helmet from smacking you in the dome", so something like a modern construction hardhat would count by my definition that I just made up based on tummy feels. Most military helmets in the WW1-WW2 era are basically glorified hard hats. They're not there to stop a bullet, they're there to stop low velocity debris that got kicked loose by some high explosive somewhere.
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Sep 14, 2021 01:58
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In all of antiquity, there is at least one idiot wearing a hard helmet without anything soft underneath. This person convinced everyone present to put something underneath it.
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Sep 14, 2021 03:04
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Unconnected fact I just learned : The word "pintle" is from the Old English word for "penis". Gives a new meaning to "pintle-mounted". Finally, I got to contribute rather than just lurk and ask dumb questions.
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Sep 14, 2021 04:59
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Jobbo_Fett posted:In the spring of 1938, our Government reorganized 5,000 Chinese Communist remnants in Kiangsi, Fukien and the border area of Hupei and Anhwei into the New 4th Corps which commanded 4 columns. Subordinated to the 3rd War Area, it was stationed in Tung-ling, Fan-chang, Nan-ling and Ching Hsien in southern Anhwei. IT was directed to conduct guerilla operations in Kiangsu and Anhwei south of the Yangtze River. In order to facilitate its operations, the Government designated the area between Tung-ling and Fan-chang for it to garrison. Yet it made use of the slogan of "national united front against Japan" by deceiving youts, expanding its organizations, threatening the able-bodied males and developing rebellious forces. It scored no achievement insofar as operations against the Japanese were concerned. 
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Sep 14, 2021 05:56
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Valtonen posted:
I bought an used sausage hat and a friend modified the cables so that I can use it as a headset for my computer. The speakers in the headphones are rear end and make all music sound like it's made by robots, but the throat mike works suprisingly well.
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Sep 14, 2021 10:02
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Xiahou Dun posted:Unconnected fact I just learned : Pizzle mounted
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Sep 14, 2021 11:53
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Foxtrot_13 posted:It all depends on the type of impact you want to protect against. my guess is that based on recent helmet research that the soviet style helmets do gently caress all to prevent brain injuries from your brain bouncing around in your head because most helmets do gently caress all to prevent brain injuries from your brain bouncing around in your head
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Sep 14, 2021 12:49
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Clearly the solution is a quited shako. Inside a shako. With a plume. Scratch Monkey posted:Pizzle mounted My nickname for the 2nd World War 2 Pounder AT gun, the Pizzler.
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Sep 14, 2021 14:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:my guess is that based on recent helmet research that the soviet style helmets do gently caress all to prevent brain injuries from your brain bouncing around in your head because most helmets do gently caress all to prevent brain injuries from your brain bouncing around in your head pretty much this Between military and hockey and cycling I've spent a surprising amount of my life helmeted and got to watch them evolve pretty quickly from the "we don't care much about concussions" era to the "holy poo poo concussions are bad" era. They tried EVERYTHING to try and reduce the concussion risk, and...haven't really succeeded yet, to my knowledge. Basically, concussions and subconcussive brain injuries are caused by external acceleration moving your brain inside your skull such that it mushes itself against the skull and gets bruised/damaged/whatever. The ONLY way to really prevent this is to slow down the acceleration so much that the brain movement isn't as violent. Padding can do a little bit, but ultimately, you need to flatten that acceleration much more than any modern padding ever could, at least a level practical to actually wear. So, in hockey for instance, while direct head contact is the worst, you can still get concussion symptoms from just being hit really hard, which puts those forces on your head and creates the same effects. They used to think that a hard shell plus decent padding could prevent or mitigate these kinds of injuries, but since the mechanism is actually inside your skull, there isn't a whole hell of a lot any helmet can really do to prevent them. Now, that being said, helmets can still do a lot to prevent trauma to the skull itself which is very worthwhile, but that's mainly from the shell absorbing the force of the impact. Anecdote: I lived through the transition from the old kevlar helmet with webbing and leather headband to the new ACH helmets with gel pads. The old kevlars were basically just a WWII helmet made with kevlar instead of steel. They weren't terribly comfortable and didn't provide much impact protection, and they always left a dumb looking little ring in your hair from where the webbing came together at the top. I always wondered why the hell they didn't adopt something like a hockey helmet, which was WAY more comfortable and provided much better protection for all those times you bang your head on stuff (which for me was pretty frequently). I will NEVER forget the first time I put on the ACH. It was in theater, and I was sweaty as hell and my head hurt from the dumbass kevlar. Taking the kevlar off and putting the ACH on was like...getting into a bubble bath or something. The gel pads just sort of caressed my head and the helmet felt like it was a fraction of the weight because its balance was so much better. I was pissed off for a while wondering why it took them so long to figure out this new helmet (which was nothing special technologically) while making me wear that old piece of poo poo all those years.
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Sep 14, 2021 14:28
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The solution is to breed mankind into having a smaller brain inside a bigger skull so there is enough space for sudden movements. I will donate sperm to this noble purpose, PM me.
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Sep 14, 2021 14:33
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bewbies posted:Anecdote: I lived through the transition from the old kevlar helmet with webbing and leather headband to the new ACH helmets with gel pads. The old kevlars were basically just a WWII helmet made with kevlar instead of steel. They weren't terribly comfortable and didn't provide much impact protection, and they always left a dumb looking little ring in your hair from where the webbing came together at the top. I always wondered why the hell they didn't adopt something like a hockey helmet, which was WAY more comfortable and provided much better protection for all those times you bang your head on stuff (which for me was pretty frequently). Isn't that why Delta Force circa Black Hawk Down era adopted hockey/skateboard helmets?
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Sep 14, 2021 14:34
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