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Nash
Aug 1, 2003

Sign my 'Bring Goldberg Back' Petition

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

I feel like the biggest troll I could do now is play the game on release and enjoy it

You sick son of a bitch. How dare you.

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Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

MonsterEnvy posted:

I don't see anything in the article about changing the recharge rate, could you point it out to me. Also Tzeentch at the very least wants more Wizards, cause the more spells you toss around the quicker you get your army abilities off.

Also Channeling stance in the article seems to give +10 not +4.

Sorry, I should have been clearer: the skill that used to give +15 (Magical Reserves) now appears to give +20% to gains. Including the 15 from Channeling Stance, that skill generated 4 reserve in the example presented. Without Channeling, it would have generated 1. It might also not give anything, and reserves might be capped at 100 anyway.

As for the fixed rate, you are right. It isnt in that article. I distinctly remember them discussing that before in other releases however. I'll try to find a source.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Ravenfood posted:

Sorry, I should have been clearer: the skill that used to give +15 (Magical Reserves) now appears to give +20% to gains. Including the 15 from Channeling Stance, that skill generated 4 reserve in the example presented. Without Channeling, it would have generated 1. It might also not give anything, and reserves might be capped at 100 anyway.

As for the fixed rate, you are right. It isnt in that article. I distinctly remember them discussing that before in other releases however. I'll try to find a source.

It generated 6, as 21 - 15 is 6.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

MonsterEnvy posted:

It generated 6, as 21 - 15 is 6.

Their math (or the bonuses from the skill) is wrong. First, they enter an area that gives +5. Then they enter channeling stance that gives +15. Then they have a hero that gives +20%. That somehow gives a total of 22 per their math. I chose instead to use 20% from the hero. 20*1.2 is 24. Either the skill gives 2 (what they state) or it gives 4 (what 20% represents of the total gains.) Either way it gives less than the 15 it does in WH2.

21 doesn't enter into it anywhere. Also their math doesn't add up which is why I took the +20% of gains at face value.

Dr Christmas
Apr 24, 2010

Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!
🔥😱🔥🔫👴🏻
Cathay is going to have a system called Elemental Winds, where the spell power is increased for each caster in the army. I don’t know if they’ve said exactly what that entails yet.

Maybe factions other than Tzeentch and Cathay will just have less incentive to stack casters, we’ll have to see if Nurgle and Slaanesh has heroes who aren’t casters. Kislev has the Ice Court mechanic, representing how each Ice Witch is a significant investment, so maybe they’ll have less of an incentive to stack casters.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Ravenfood posted:

Their math (or the bonuses from the skill) is wrong. First, they enter an area that gives +5. Then they enter channeling stance that gives +15. Then they have a hero that gives +20%. That somehow gives a total of 22 per their math. I chose instead to use 20% from the hero. 20*1.2 is 24. Either the skill gives 2 (what they state) or it gives 4 (what 20% represents of the total gains.) Either way it gives less than the 15 it does in WH2.

21 doesn't enter into it anywhere. Also their math doesn't add up which is why I took the +20% of gains at face value.

Yeah my mistake.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort

OwlFancier posted:

The dwarven answer to all magic is to throw a loving rock at it, possibly with a goblin tied to the rock.

Artillery is a loving lore of magic, do not @ me.
Now I want an artillery piece that fires barrels of Bugman's XXXXX that buff/heal friendlies and blind/poison enemies OR you can fire hardened barrles that wont explode and you can fire them behind enemy units to get your Dwarf Warriors to fight harder to go get/rescue the Bugmans.

Triskelli
Sep 27, 2011

I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


Still not sure how you brew beer six times (XXX XXX) but I know it’d be a good shoe polish.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





I mean, if the aussies can manage it four times, it should be easy for a dwarf

Gonkish
May 19, 2004

Dr Christmas posted:

Cathay is going to have a system called Elemental Winds, where the spell power is increased for each caster in the army. I don’t know if they’ve said exactly what that entails yet.

Maybe factions other than Tzeentch and Cathay will just have less incentive to stack casters, we’ll have to see if Nurgle and Slaanesh has heroes who aren’t casters. Kislev has the Ice Court mechanic, representing how each Ice Witch is a significant investment, so maybe they’ll have less of an incentive to stack casters.

Although it has nothing to do with caster stacking, the changes to WoM make the Cathay wheel mechanic pretty interesting, in that you might have some amount of control over where the winds are directed and can funnel them on an ad hoc basis towards a front where you're fighting Ogres or Greenskins or whatever to help boost your casters against them, or AWAY from daemon armies to weaken the fuckers.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
I did not think of that, purposely weakening a region’s winds to weaken Deamon armies sounds like a good idea.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

At best, it's probably just a way to strengthen the winds of magic in an area, not weaken them below whatever the normalized map value currently is. And even then I'm a bit dubious if it will actually affect the winds of magic found in a region/battle, because directly moving winds of magic is explicitly called out as a Tzeentch campaign mechanic whereas everything in the Cathay section talking about it is also referring to the compass and the regional gauges - i.e. it may just be fluff.

More to the point, the Warpstone Desert active buff (that region has no fillable bar or passive buff) specifically mentions lowering in-battle Winds of Magic reserves for all enemy armies in Cathay, which would be much far valuable if you could just drain the magic out of a region by moving the compass. Plus the active buffs for the other three call out needing to fill the bar (and are quite strong), so I think the idea is that you need to leave it on a direction for a while before getting that buff, even if the winds of magic in that direction are already Tempestuous or whatever.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea
I've got 120 hours in this, and I feel like I know the basics of how to work the game, but I'm not good at it. I'm just going to post a huge wall of questions in the hope that someone's a huge nerd for this game like I am for Hearts of Iron 4. My most recent game is as Karaz A Karak, so I'll use that as an example.

First up - Settlement building strategy.

So as Karaz A Karak I beelined to take over my starting province. While I was doing that, I upgraded the capital settlement, set up the gems building in the capital, and upgraded the infantry building in the capital so I can get Quarrellers. I've found in previous games that the only settlements that don't get razed by random raiding enemy armies are ones with walls, so my next step is to try to get walls on the two minor settlements ASAP, which requires population, which means I need to maximise growth. To do this, I put barley fields in all three settlements, and use the commandment that increases growth. I then get the most exposed minor settlement to level 3, and give it the guard building which gives it walls, then move on to the other minor settlement and do the same there. The third slot on the minor settlements gets a toolmaker for money.

So at this point the starting province is two level 3 minor settlements with walls, toolmaker and barley field, and the capital is level 2 with an infantry building and gems building. Next step is to upgrade the capital as much as possible as fast as possible, and grab any unique buildings and any recruitment buildings I want (Grudge Throwers are an early priority). I'll also probably need to put a pub in the capital to keep order.

Finally, once my capital has hit max level I'll get rid of all the growth buildings. Maybe I'll put recruitment buildings that max out at level 3 in the minor settlements to make room for more high level buildings in the capital. What do other players initial provinces end up looking like when they're "maxed out"?

Is that pretty much what other players do? I wonder if I'm too walls-fixated. I've had a fair few bad experiences where a random army comes barrelling out of the fog of war and clowns on a settlement that took tons of money and time to build up, and walled settlements are the only ones that stand a chance in that scenario.

Army composition strategy.

Obviously this is going to vary heavily by faction. An average early army in my Karaz A Karak game is the general, a runesmith, an engineer, six Dwarf Warriors with shields for a frontline, four Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons (or Slayers if they're available) for flanking, four Quarrellers that mostly shoot at enemy archers, and three Grudge Throwers to force the enemy to come to me. This composition seems to do well against the early AI Greenskin and Skaven armies I've fought. The runesmith mostly spams runes of speed, with the occasional rune of slowness for enemy cavalry units. The engineer is mostly there for his army buffs, though restocking ammunition is nice in sieges or long battles.

The main issue I have playing Dwarfs against Greenskins and Skaven is enemy archer units - no cavalry means you basically have to outshoot them, and luckily Grudge Throwers and Quarrellers do that nicely.

As I get more advanced units I'll swap out like for like - so Dwarf Warriors will become Longbeards or Ironbreakers, Grudge Throwers become Organ guns, and flanking units might become gyrocopters or whatever.

Battle strategy

An average battle versus Greenskins and Skaven has me making a big line out of my melee troops - Warriors in the middle, two Great Weapon units on each end of the line. Then my three heroes behind the melee line, Quarrellers behind them, and Grudge Throwers behind them. If I'm fighting Skaven I'll put a high damage unit behind the Grudge Throwers to deal with the inevitable spawns of three clanrat units on top of the Grudge Throwers. I turn off skirmish mode on the Quarrellers and Engineer so they don't run to random places. I'll use Entrenchment from my engineer on one of my Grudge Thorwers.

The enemy will approach the line since the Grudge Throwers will force them to, and once they're within bowshot, I'll pause the game. I'll individually target each enemy archer unit with a Quarreller unit, and each enemy melee unit in their frontline with a Dwarf Warrior unit. If they've a general out front I'll send my general to duel them. (often my general is the High King and he tends to win such duels) My flanking units will go to the flanks and try to charge the rear of the enemy melee line if I outnumber the enemy, or just charge the ends of the enemy line if not. I'll target any non-melee enemy units with Grudge Throwers to avoid friendly fire. I put Rune of Speed on the middle of the battle. Then I unpause the game, and hopefully my army wins. Mostly my time after the game unpauses is spent micromanaging Quarrellers to change target from a broken enemy archer unit to an unbroken one.

I wonder if there's a more elegant way to control the army than this. It seems like it'd be a big hurry to set off the initial charge in multiplayer.

World map strategy

So mostly my games go like this - I take over my initial region, build up a full stack army, and it goes off conquering, trying to get more full regions. I'll usually get to a point where I'm facing something like a full enemy stack inside an enemy castle, and I'll add a second army to my first one, which joins it conquering. Usually that wins against anything it actually faces.

Trouble is, this leaves my original regions quite unprotected, and they tend to get raided. What do people tend to do about this? I wonder if other players tend to have "guard armies" they leave at home to cover for problems like this.

Good co-op campaign matchups

I'm going to be starting an MP co-op campaign soon, which is what's prompted all these questions. I'm thinking Mortal Empires map. The other player has said they want to play Wood Elves. What's a good other side to go with them? We don't really want to fight each other, more of a "take on the bastards" campaign. I was thinking maybe Bretonnia would go well with one of the two Athel Loren Wood Elf factions.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

RE: your campaign strategy, are you just turtling in the silver road forever? The best defence against random razings is 1. control who you are at war with. Which is generally not that hard for dwarfs I think, your big issues are going to be orcs and you generally want to secure the northern province with gunbad in it, because gunbad has a gold mine and a brightstone mine which makes it produce a lot of money, then either karak kadrin will have gotten off its arse and cleared its area out, or you will have to do it yourself. The silver road is a good province to fortify as karaz a karak is very tough by itself, but your best way of doing that, I think, is with a second army, not walls. Walls have their use for sure but you want an army there to deal with incursions and retake anything you lose, and you can also use that army to fight stuff, get more lord levels and loot, and capture enemy settlements potentially too. Black Crag is also a very good place to capture because it's a big settlement with a gold mine in it. And 2. if you can't control who you are at war with, you need armies to be able to respond to attacks. Garrisons can help but they rarely hold a town by themselves because the enemy will just ignore anything it can't take and without an army to intercept it, it will sit and raid or wait for reinforcements or cruise past and find something else to destroy.

Essentially your primary goal is not, I think, to develop your starter province but to secure your northern border (you can't secure the south because it's orks and rats all the way to khemri) and then focus on kicking poo poo down south. The northern provinces and the silver road are your economic breadbasket and your focus should generally be on developing them economically, not fortifying them, because the more money you get the more armies you can raise and an army is better than a garrison.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Nov 3, 2021

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

I feel like the biggest troll I could do now is play the game on release and enjoy it
The madman! The lunatic! He has gone too far!!

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

OwlFancier posted:

RE: your campaign strategy, are you just turtling in the silver road forever? The best defence against random razings is 1. control who you are at war with. Which is generally not that hard for dwarfs I think, your big issues are going to be orcs and you generally want to secure the northern province with gunbad in it, because gunbad has a gold mine and a brightstone mine which makes it produce a lot of money, then either karak kadrin will have gotten off its arse and cleared its area out, or you will have to do it yourself. The silver road is a good province to fortify as karaz a karak is very tough by itself, but your best way of doing that, I think, is with a second army, not walls. Walls have their use for sure but you want an army there to deal with incursions and retake anything you lose, and you can also use that army to fight stuff, get more lord levels and loot, and capture enemy settlements potentially too. Black Crag is also a very good place to capture because it's a big settlement with a gold mine in it. And 2. if you can't control who you are at war with, you need armies to be able to respond to attacks. Garrisons can help but they rarely hold a town by themselves because the enemy will just ignore anything it can't take and without an army to intercept it, it will sit and raid or wait for reinforcements or cruise past and find something else to destroy.

Essentially your primary goal is not, I think, to develop your starter province but to secure your northern border (you can't secure the south because it's orks and rats all the way to khemri) and then focus on kicking poo poo down south. The northern provinces and the silver road are your economic breadbasket and your focus should generally be on developing them economically, not fortifying them, because the more money you get the more armies you can raise and an army is better than a garrison.

Oh yeah, I don't turtle really. In this particular game my main army went north and captured the Gunbad province, then turned south and captured Black Crag, then carried on South East and took another province there, then went East and is now fighting Clan Eshin. I have a second army which is in the north-west fighting undead 'cause Zhufbar pulled me into their war and I want to confederate them.

Legendary Ptarmigan
Sep 21, 2007

Need a light?
Given the insane growth requirements now in the base game and dwarfs slow overall growth rates, it's very fair to put walls on everything all the time because losing a t3 settlement sets you back so far in terms of getting your capital to t4-t5.

So in the Silver Road, for instance, I will have growth and income buildings plus walls in the middle settlement and barracks and growth plus walls at mount squighorn. When everything is maxed I will swap them for a trading post and income buildings, respectively. I feel it's important to get the artillery building right away at karaz-a-karak because grudge throwers are so strong against t2-3 orcs and skaven, so I get it right away and demolish the barracks there as soon as I have secured the province.

Regarding your battle layer strategy, that army composition is pretty much what dwarfs do. I tend to leave my front line still in guard mode and let the enemy come to me rather than counter charging at the last minute. Dunno if this is actually better though.

I can tell you that you want to use your quarrlers slightly differently. Number one is to always focus fire as much as possible (all your units targeting one of theirs until it routs) rather than have different individual targets. This will more rapidly decrease the fire coming in towards your guys. The other thing I would say is to fire on enemy infantry until they engage your front line (big 'uns, black orcs, or stormvermin, particularly those without shields). That gives your warriors/Longbeards a better shot at holding until your ranged and artillery clean up. Then when the front lines meet you can switch to targeting the enemy ranged troops.

Once the enemies start bringing their own artillery, you need to target it first and take it out with your own grudge throwers. Their longer range for counter battery fire means I will keep two in dwarf stacks through the whole campaign. Dwarfs without an artillery advantage lose hard because of their slow movement. If the enemy can make you come to them, you've probably lost (outside of an Ungrim stack with 10+ slayers).

Once you start seeing higher tiers of stuff, you'll need to target cavalry and monsters with your ranged first (in lieu of denting the incoming infantry) Araknarok Spiders, Giants, Boar Boys, and things like Hellpit Abominations and Rat Ogres need to be dealt with quickly because for some insane reason dwarfs haven't invented spears/pikes despite these being seemingly ideal weapons for those of small stature.

Legendary Ptarmigan fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Nov 3, 2021

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.
Just take a full stack of slayers with Ungrim imo.

Smiling Knight
May 31, 2011

Gort posted:

I've got 120 hours in this, and I feel like I know the basics of how to work the game, but I'm not good at it. I'm just going to post a huge wall of questions in the hope that someone's a huge nerd for this game like I am for Hearts of Iron 4. My most recent game is as Karaz A Karak, so I'll use that as an example.

First up - Settlement building strategy.

So as Karaz A Karak I beelined to take over my starting province. While I was doing that, I upgraded the capital settlement, set up the gems building in the capital, and upgraded the infantry building in the capital so I can get Quarrellers. I've found in previous games that the only settlements that don't get razed by random raiding enemy armies are ones with walls, so my next step is to try to get walls on the two minor settlements ASAP, which requires population, which means I need to maximise growth. To do this, I put barley fields in all three settlements, and use the commandment that increases growth. I then get the most exposed minor settlement to level 3, and give it the guard building which gives it walls, then move on to the other minor settlement and do the same there. The third slot on the minor settlements gets a toolmaker for money.

So at this point the starting province is two level 3 minor settlements with walls, toolmaker and barley field, and the capital is level 2 with an infantry building and gems building. Next step is to upgrade the capital as much as possible as fast as possible, and grab any unique buildings and any recruitment buildings I want (Grudge Throwers are an early priority). I'll also probably need to put a pub in the capital to keep order.

Finally, once my capital has hit max level I'll get rid of all the growth buildings. Maybe I'll put recruitment buildings that max out at level 3 in the minor settlements to make room for more high level buildings in the capital. What do other players initial provinces end up looking like when they're "maxed out"?

Is that pretty much what other players do? I wonder if I'm too walls-fixated. I've had a fair few bad experiences where a random army comes barrelling out of the fog of war and clowns on a settlement that took tons of money and time to build up, and walled settlements are the only ones that stand a chance in that scenario.

Army composition strategy.

Obviously this is going to vary heavily by faction. An average early army in my Karaz A Karak game is the general, a runesmith, an engineer, six Dwarf Warriors with shields for a frontline, four Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons (or Slayers if they're available) for flanking, four Quarrellers that mostly shoot at enemy archers, and three Grudge Throwers to force the enemy to come to me. This composition seems to do well against the early AI Greenskin and Skaven armies I've fought. The runesmith mostly spams runes of speed, with the occasional rune of slowness for enemy cavalry units. The engineer is mostly there for his army buffs, though restocking ammunition is nice in sieges or long battles.

The main issue I have playing Dwarfs against Greenskins and Skaven is enemy archer units - no cavalry means you basically have to outshoot them, and luckily Grudge Throwers and Quarrellers do that nicely.

As I get more advanced units I'll swap out like for like - so Dwarf Warriors will become Longbeards or Ironbreakers, Grudge Throwers become Organ guns, and flanking units might become gyrocopters or whatever.

Battle strategy

An average battle versus Greenskins and Skaven has me making a big line out of my melee troops - Warriors in the middle, two Great Weapon units on each end of the line. Then my three heroes behind the melee line, Quarrellers behind them, and Grudge Throwers behind them. If I'm fighting Skaven I'll put a high damage unit behind the Grudge Throwers to deal with the inevitable spawns of three clanrat units on top of the Grudge Throwers. I turn off skirmish mode on the Quarrellers and Engineer so they don't run to random places. I'll use Entrenchment from my engineer on one of my Grudge Thorwers.

The enemy will approach the line since the Grudge Throwers will force them to, and once they're within bowshot, I'll pause the game. I'll individually target each enemy archer unit with a Quarreller unit, and each enemy melee unit in their frontline with a Dwarf Warrior unit. If they've a general out front I'll send my general to duel them. (often my general is the High King and he tends to win such duels) My flanking units will go to the flanks and try to charge the rear of the enemy melee line if I outnumber the enemy, or just charge the ends of the enemy line if not. I'll target any non-melee enemy units with Grudge Throwers to avoid friendly fire. I put Rune of Speed on the middle of the battle. Then I unpause the game, and hopefully my army wins. Mostly my time after the game unpauses is spent micromanaging Quarrellers to change target from a broken enemy archer unit to an unbroken one.

I wonder if there's a more elegant way to control the army than this. It seems like it'd be a big hurry to set off the initial charge in multiplayer.

World map strategy

So mostly my games go like this - I take over my initial region, build up a full stack army, and it goes off conquering, trying to get more full regions. I'll usually get to a point where I'm facing something like a full enemy stack inside an enemy castle, and I'll add a second army to my first one, which joins it conquering. Usually that wins against anything it actually faces.

Trouble is, this leaves my original regions quite unprotected, and they tend to get raided. What do people tend to do about this? I wonder if other players tend to have "guard armies" they leave at home to cover for problems like this.

Good co-op campaign matchups

I'm going to be starting an MP co-op campaign soon, which is what's prompted all these questions. I'm thinking Mortal Empires map. The other player has said they want to play Wood Elves. What's a good other side to go with them? We don't really want to fight each other, more of a "take on the bastards" campaign. I was thinking maybe Bretonnia would go well with one of the two Athel Loren Wood Elf factions.

Great Weapon Warriors are absolute trash, take a look at their melee attack/defense stats — they aren’t going to kill anything, and will take unreasonable casualties from enemy archers and even basic Boyz. My number one tip is to replace them with Quarrellers; my early game dwarf armies usually have a 1-1 infantry/ranged ratio.

I would also prioritize getting KaK to tier 3 before getting the minor settlements there. It’s a good economic boost that also gives you a lot more military options; eg if Grimgor is giving you a lot of trouble you can add in a couple thunderers. Defend the minor settlements by proactively clearing space around them and being aggressive.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011

Gort posted:

Questions

Regarding your battle tactics: those are pretty fine for normal fights against weaker/even foes with relatively few high-impact units. There are some small changes to your plan that will help a lot.
1) when you draw your front line, space out the units by anywhere from 1/3 of a unit length to 4/3 of a unit length. Less space prevents anything from moving through the front line, but that makes flanking harder. More space give you more room to work with but also means units are more able to slip through lines, especially lords and heroes.
2) A checkerboard formation with a good bit of spread will allow you to have a group of longbeards get attacked by (high value melee enemy unit) and before they engage, the longbeards pull back to allow two units of quarrellers to pincushion the enemy from the flanks. This is a little more work, but supremely effective against the AI.
3) Speaking of ranged, while you’re not wrong to target enemy archers, the goal should be to rout them with the most ammo left. This means focus fire on one at a time to get them leadership maluses for losing the fight and taking lots of damage recently. I also tend to play dawi with a front line designed to hold, not to kill, so my ranged is often much superior to the enemy.
At some point you’ll either start doing cheese strats or develop silly things like a “triple oblique order” to try and win impossible fights, where your own micro ability is your biggest issue. These tips should help you on your way.

Scott Forstall
Aug 16, 2003

MMM THAT FAUX LEATHER
Draw your line out as thin as possible, but then press control + down arrow a few times to square them back up with good space between.

Also, apparently kairos mechanics today.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
I'm going to disagree and say that walls are definitely worth building almost everywhere. More armies are good but a garrison building costs you 3k once. A decent basic army costs you at least 2.5k every turn in upkeep. And while that army can earn money in terms of sacking and battles, it can't do that if it is sitting in your own territory guarding things. I think owlfancier is right in that you will need more armies and to push outward, because turtling in the Silver Road is a way to get overwhelmed, but I just don't see the money gains from a money building (750 at t3 iirc) to be worth skipping a wall. Maybe in some circumstances, and at lower difficulties where the upkeep penalties aren't too harsh.

Your battle strategy and composition isn't too bad. The main thing I think is that you don't have enough ranged units and you aren't using them as effectively as you could be. Ranged units' key strength is the ability to focus fire on a single unit without needing to move. Instead of having each of your quarrelers firing on enemy archers individually, you should focus all of your quarrelers on one archer unit. Wipe them out until they flee, then move down the line to the next one. A fleeing or dead unit can't hurt you and causes morale impacts to every unit around it. That focus fire is ranged, especially arcing ranged, key advantage. Also you don't have enough of them. A 1:1 infantry:ranged ratio as a rule of thumb is probably fairly decent for campaign (not counting artillery, and this will get you wrecked in MP) and you could push that higher in favor of ranged units later depending on faction, enemy, skill, etc. Especially dwarfs, whose ranged units won't instantly fold in melee, which means if you do get your quarrelers charged, they can turn and focus fire on whatever made it around your lines.

Melee units in WH just don't effectively do the damage ranged units do. Flanking slayers are good to have, and they should be used as the closest thing you have to cavalry. Artillery is good, and your idea to swap out a grudge thrower or two in favor of organ guns is also a good one. Your infantry is there to die more slowly than the other guys while your ranged units and artillery kill them.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.
Or you can go with 16 Thunderers and a couple heroes to tarpit the enemy with. This works as well, especially with proper redline buffs on your lord.

Worth trying on at least one army IMO. It’s like you’re suddenly playing Fall of the Samurai.

You can throw in a cannon or Gyro for counterbattery but you generally won’t need it unless you run into like 3+ hellcannons.

Mazz fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 3, 2021

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
Having just wrapped up a Thogrim game on normal a small while ago, some less obvious things also:

Growth/development is good and needed, but getting a quick tech building that unlocks something strong can float you a long way before you need to invest in tech again. For Silver Road, I demolish the barracks in the main settlement to rebuild it in a small one (since it's only ever gonna need 3 tiers), and replace it with the ranged barracks asap. Faster you get grudge throwers for everyone, the faster any given stack becomes a real army.

I agree 100% with stopping backbiter arseholes by spamming walls everywhere, but for dwarves its both less needed and less effective early game. If you take your Thogrim stack up north asap and build walls, what I find is that some jerk comes in, sees the walls, and just raids the province then walks off. Normally no biggie, except dwarves get grudges and if the RNG says that one random lord now wonders off across the map, that's gonna suck. Building a second stack just with warriors/quarrels/grudgethrowers, even if it's not fullsize, can chase raiders while holding the province. The AI maphacks horribly and knows exactly which provinces are undefended, but will refuse to suicide attack into one if it means your larger stack will catch up to it. The wall spam comes later imo, especially when expanding into orc territory.

Of compositions: Everything dwarves fight for the first two thirds of the game has zero armour. Maybe the occasional snotwagon chariot, but basically Orcs, Beastmen, and Undead don't do armour, especially not low-tech. So keep the frontline with shields, and quarrelers never go obsolete. Like really, go ham on those quarrelers.

Someone wrote a good effortpost on it before, but basically the smartest way to play the ME campaign is to manage who your neighbors are. If they can't see you, they don't hate you and can't wardec. Don't ally with anyone, ever, for any reason, and use friendly neighbors as buffers between people who'll get bored and attack you, aka Vampires. Non-aggression pack every non-orc, get military access, get trade agreements, tell them to go gently caress themselves when they want defensive pacts since they'll just suck you into their own wars. Be careful with confederations, as it removes a buffer and will get you new foes. Only ever confed when A) they're at risk of dying, and B) they have Legendary Lords you want. Otherwise, who cares? You can confed freely lategame once you're so impossibly ahead having new enemies isn't a problem.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Well alliances have uses. The only alliance anyone should ever get into is a defensive alliance with a neighboring trade partner who you can’t confederate and have no intention of conquering ever. Usually this means people who gently caress with different climates. Since there is never an obligation to actually defend your allies, you never have to actually help them. You do, however, get to force them to help you with war coordination. Never under any circumstances get into a military alliance.

For example, Empire should ally with the dwarfs nearby because developing those regions yourself loving sucks because of the climate penalties, they always keep a full stack sitting in their main province, and they are huge trade partners. So when you get attacked by a vampire you can have your dwarf buddies send a stack of dudes right at an army you don’t want to fight via war coordination and they just do it, no questions asked. If you have the region trading mod you can have them fight your war for you and conquer regions and then just buy their regions out from under them later.

The AI gets a ton of bonuses, you should have them work for you.

Also, with dudes who like you, when you have multiple alliances with dudes they get rep buffs with each other. If I’m allied (friends?) with dwarfs and Bretonnia, Bretonnia and dwarfs are less likely to hate each other and will end up friends. This really strengthens your area against whatever looming invader is coming (note: it is funner to be the only good guy left at the end of the game and have other people constantly trying to destroy your empire).

Triskelli
Sep 27, 2011

I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


Cavalry Patch is live

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
I'm out of the loop; are they talking about infantry that lacks 'charge defence vs large'? Since I'd have assumed that CDvL removes the charge bonus entirely, hence collision damage etc. So it's a balance patch for people who where counter-charging with (eg) GW infantry?

Also noob question: What's the best way to bloody well make sure you're bracing? Right click the unit to attack, then press backspace when they're close?

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

jokes posted:

The AI gets a ton of bonuses, you should have them work for you.

That's interesting - what bonuses do AIs get on normal?

Googling around I found a reddit post but it's like four years old

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

If you had greatswords or halberds counter charge against heavy cavalry, they’d sometimes out-damage the heavy cavalry which doesn’t make any sense.

These changes seem pretty great it was always annoying as poo poo losing one or two cavalry each charge because it got stuck behind a single spearman or whatever, hopefully that changes. 59 reiksguard are standing behind the walls, one of them is getting clawed by zombies, the whole unit is “in combat” gently caress off.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort

I wish they could just copy/paste 3K's cavalry effectiveness into Total Warhammer....

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Gort posted:

That's interesting - what bonuses do AIs get on normal?

Googling around I found a reddit post but it's like four years old

They get maphack, bonus money, bonus public order/growth, AR bonuses, etc.

All those hacky things that are necessary for an AI to pose some semblance of a challenge for a human player that we aren’t normally aware of.

Aren’t you ever curious how an AI can have a single minor province, a full late-game stack, and 6 agents running around, while their province has a barracks, a public order building, and an undemolished pile of poop

Doomykins
Jun 28, 2008

Didn't you mean to ask about flowers?

Serephina posted:

Also noob question: What's the best way to bloody well make sure you're bracing? Right click the unit to attack, then press backspace when they're close?

Bracing means waiting to take, not right clicking to charge. If you click to attack and interrupt it like that you'll get counter charged without your charge and without the brace.

For a brace you just want the unit standing still and meeting the enemy head on. If the enemy attacks your front while you're holding perfectly still(so just drag the unit into position well in advance, guard mode not needed) they'll do charge animation but it'll all be handled in the background: they won't get extra benefit. If they circle to your flanks or back you have to rotate to meet but if you form a ring of steel with loads of spearmen the enemy AI cavalry will get really reluctant and you'll know you're braced and airtight.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

jokes posted:

They get maphack, bonus money, bonus public order/growth, AR bonuses, etc.

All those hacky things that are necessary for an AI to pose some semblance of a challenge for a human player that we aren’t normally aware of.

Aren’t you ever curious how an AI can have a single minor province, a full late-game stack, and 6 agents running around, while their province has a barracks, a public order building, and an undemolished pile of poop

I knew they got bonuses, I was interested in exactly what bonuses

Like there's a big difference between "20% extra income" and "2,000 gold extra per turn" and "10,000 gold if their gold ever goes negative" but they're all "bonus money"

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007


Copied from a guide, legendary is in the left, easy on the right:

Player controlled Lords and Heroes gets 10%/10%/+12%/+14%/+16% additional replenishment rate.

AI controlled Lords and Heroes gets +16%/+14%/+12%/+10%/+10% additional replenishment rate.

Players Campaign Line of Sight is NA/+40%/+70%/+100%/+120% 

AI can see all of the Campaign map except armies that are hidden (like in Beastmen Encampment or Ambush Stance).

All player controlled units have +10%/+0%/+0%/+0%/-10% upkeep.

All AI controlled units have -20%/-15%/-10%/+0%/+0% upkeep 

All player controlled settlements have -8/-4/-2/+0/+1 public order from difficulty per turn.

AI suffers -80%/-70%/-60%/-50%/-30% casualties from all attrition (AI is always immune to attrition from horde infighting).

Plagues has -30%/-20%/-10%/+0%/+10% duration and chance of spreading for the AI 

AI every turn generates +12/+10/+8/+6/+4 ritual resource in Vortex Campaign (such as Scrolls of Hekarti).

AI gets -80%/-60%/-40%/-30%/-20% public order penalty from slaves (Dark Elves).

Slave decline rate is always -60% for AI compared to Player (Dark Elves).

Casting rites doesn't cost slaves for AI (Dark Elves).

AI gains +10 influence per turn (High Elves).

AI units gains +500/+250/+100/+0/+0 xp per turn.

AI construction costs are modified by -80%/-70%/-60%/-50%/+0% for all buildings.

AI never pays for colonisation.

Resistance to occupation for AI is +70%/+60%/+50%/+40%/+10 meanwhile it is NA/NA/NA/NA/+10% for player 

AI recruitment costs are modified by -70%/-60%/-50%/-30%/+0% for everything.

AI casualty replenishment rate is modified by +9%/+7%/+5%/+4%/+3%.

AI has +6/+5/+4/+3/+2 default global recruitment and +3/+3/+3/+2/+2 default local recruitment capacity.

Player's default global recruitment capacity is always +3 and default local recruitment capacity is always +2.

AI settlements have +125/+100/+60/+40/+20 growth.

AI hordes have +9/+8/+7/+6/+5 growth.

The Chad Jihad fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Nov 3, 2021

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007


So on normal it's relatively even, the attrition and free colonization are probably what will be most noticable

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
I dno man, -50% buildings, -30% recruit, and a free +40 growth is a heck of a lot even for normal, attrition and colonization don't sound like much compared to that.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
You say that but without it you'd just be utterly clowning the AI every time.

Dr Christmas
Apr 24, 2010

Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!
🔥😱🔥🔫👴🏻
Did we manage to find out what the Lore of Ice’s passive attribute was back when streamers got to play with Katarin during the survival battle?

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007


I'm speaking mainly on 'visibility', but imo: Recruit is nothing (upkeep is what's important) and buildings only get real expensive late-game, growth is nice but the AI doesnt go growth all the time and 40 is not huge on its own. Meanwhile just getting tickled by attrition is pretty visible and can really gently caress with certain races defenses and free colonization is also pretty blatant

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William Bear
Oct 26, 2012

"That's what they all say!"
Kairos mechanics released.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-kairos-mechanics/

Heavily involved with a reinforcement mechanic overhaul, which is surprising and welcome. Plus he gets to customize his spell selection.

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