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Ihki posted:Agreed, that's why I'm trying to think around the issue of how the deck is stacked for Jorp exactly because he claims this ownership over the entire metaphysics of the history of human existence. And here some more serious critics of postmodern theorists are correct in how poststructuralists are perfectly capable of tearing down narratives, but not so great in creating new ones. To find empowerment from this -- and you can totally do that -- it really is a lot of hard, lonely, often frustrating work. You sort of need that five year plan of educating yourself beyond that, and there's not much of an effort in trying to make this stick with the coal miners. Totally agreed. I think Peterson generally falls into the category of easy answers for hard problems. like, to steal from wittgenstein, peterson is the perception that the sun is orbiting the earth (it just looks like that's what is happening) but, pomo is the realization that the earth is rotating, imho - but its loving hard to see. But yeah, not a perfect field and not a field that has all the answers but then again that's kind of The Point right. Criticizing the ambiguous field for being ambiguous, is tautological, really Ihki posted:Fair enough, though I was talking more broadly than about the forum thread. There's a lot more room for ambiguity, of course. My sister's husband went through the whole Rubin -> Peterson -> Pool (!) wringer, and, uhh, now while he's visibly embarrassed by that trajectory, now we're into Russell Brand. He sort of tried to get into philosophy channels, but they were too much work for not enough payoff for what he wanted (some brand of contrarian populism with an intellectual veneer). But I don't think he was ever committed to anything more than wanting to appear like he was doing the job of engaging with Ideas. Most people are just picking a few things up, seeing if something sticks, putting some other stuff down. But for this, also, I think a third way is hard to find in what a left intellectual culture that's accessible to a Youtube junkie actually looks like. For another example that appeared to do this successfully, one might look at how Zizek seemed to make a positive impression on Jorp fans. His dialectical highwire act was to use superficial agreements to reveal deeper contradictions between him/Peterson as well as Peterson's ideological brand. If he went in trying to own the idiot for not knowing a loving thing, nothing would've happened. I'm pro something happening as a theory and praxis, is the point, I suppose. Yeah but also he kind of did - he asked Peterson to name the active Marxists! And Peterson had no idea! So there's a gentle and a brutal way of doing this, its possible to do both, and here's hoping that some jorp fan reading this thinks a little more about poo poo just purely by reading this thread lol This thread is not for the coal miners. I can very much sympathize with the people who are Not Here and are slowly going through those pathways. I am very much LOL gently caress that guy here, but I'm addressing goons, and that's the language goons speak. Jorp is a clown man with clown ideas. But, when I've had earnest conversations with people who believe these things - and I grew up in a rural town so you know i gotta lol - I am, more sympathetic and patient. But really, here, people have no excuse.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:32
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BIG BABY JESUS posted:Yeah but also he kind of did - he asked Peterson to name the active Marxists! And Peterson had no idea! Yeah, besides talking a bit past each other in how I'm not really addressing the thread but some fantastical Zeitgeist of mine, sounds like we agree on the rest 
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Nov 15, 2021 01:46
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Zizek was pretty exasperated when jorp refused the question and he had to ask again with something like “but you say there are postmodern marxists working today. Just give me the name of one of them, maybe I have read them!” The vibe I got off jorp was clueless overconfidence, like he honestly had no idea there was anything more to marxism than the communist manifesto and that he was naturally Zizek’s equal because he was put in the gifted program back in high school. It’s been said before, but jorp really comes off like a precocious child in the nature of his unearned arrogance, like a 12-year-old who’s been labeled a prodigy and assumes he must be able to figure out the answer to every question because he’s taking math classes at the local university and all the adults around him tell him that he’s very smart. Like, he genuinely has no clue that he needs to read up on something before making pronouncements on it, or that someone before him might have said some version of the same thing.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:02
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I think we mostly agree yeah, but I genuinely think a lot of the Answers to Peterson are already lying around on the floor. I didn't see this before and I think its a super interesting thing you said: Ihki posted:Yeah, I'm no more appreciative of Sokal than you are, even less of far-right grifters like Lindsay. Here, too, I nonetheless think trying too hard to put out their fires is never-ending series of bad plays. One of BoJo's wonderful contributions to public discourse is deadcatting: I think the really cool thing about the "sokal squared" deadcat is that I *want* to talk about it. Because like I said earlier is that it can actually open up a conversation that is pretty subversive when compared with its actual goal. Like arguably we can segue from sokal squared, to the replication crisis, to for-profit universities, to the influence of capitalism on science. These just get more and more departed from the intended goal of "sokal squared" as we go, and its a really entertaining discussion to have. I have found lots of people who think "sokal squared" has a legitimate point, super interested in this, particularly given that psychology and *economics* are two of the fields worst effected.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:08
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Zizek was pretty exasperated when jorp refused the question and he had to ask again with something like “but you say there are postmodern marxists working today. Just give me the name of one of them, maybe I have read them!” Yeah like big lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apNQDNKjWCI I think sometimes people see this stuff and it does make them think Hmmmmm my favourite intellectual struggles to name his favourite female author... lol
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Nov 15, 2021 02:13
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BIG BABY JESUS posted:I think we mostly agree yeah, but I genuinely think a lot of the Answers to Peterson are already lying around on the floor. quote:I think the really cool thing about the "sokal squared" deadcat is that I *want* to talk about it. Because like I said earlier is that it can actually open up a conversation that is pretty subversive when compared with its actual goal. Like arguably we can segue from sokal squared, to the replication crisis, to for-profit universities, to the influence of capitalism on science. These just get more and more departed from the intended goal of "sokal squared" as we go, and its a really entertaining discussion to have. I have found lots of people who think "sokal squared" has a legitimate point, super interested in this, particularly given that psychology and *economics* are two of the fields worst effected. A creative third way approach which seeks to reposition the entire problem instead of resigning to play defense/offense on a predetermined field? I'm all for it 
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Nov 15, 2021 02:44
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Ihki posted:Maybe this is true, I did bring out self-indulgent lists of names that could also speak to that effect. But those are the just the ideas, I don't think we have the people or the marketing. That's what the marketplace of ideas is about, not ideas. First I just need to gulag a couple million people to get philosophy degrees (including myself). Or find someone capable and willing of doing the dirty job of the public intellectual & idea merchant. Or to carry on with the metaphor, I can't really see the floor, and I've had to spend years learning to walk in the room without breaking anything. It could use some cleaning. I have a BA Phil and its fine, I guess. But increasingly people, particularly young people, at least in Australia, are talking about masculinity and gender in increasingly skeptical ways, and we have ad campaigns about being respectful to women, on TV and streaming sites, we have had extended discussions about the lives of women in politics - and how men alter those lives. These discussions are happening whether jorp wants them to or not, and as much as public figures talk about them there hasn't necessarily been a singular champion that has made them happen. There's really no need for Butler, Deleuze, Beauvoir, Foucault, Marx, whatever, to launch those discussions off. Can a bottom still be a strong man? Totally! Lil Nas X is speaking to that topic in a way that is perhaps even more effective than peterson would likely be negative about it. Like, thinking we need another public (pseudo)intellectual to counter peterson already strikes me as adversarial and defense/offense. The discussions we have with our friends and on forums, all change the landscape, one person at a time. But if someone considers peterson an intellectual heavyweight in the academic sphere, and hasn't explored the academic territory he claims to cover, well, they need to know that jorp is a clown man with clown ideas.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:58
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Is Lil Nas X actually converting anyone? Sure he's popular with people already on board, but he brings out the reactionaries too. L I agree the conversations are happening, and the pendulum is swinging, but I don't see Lil Nas X as a part of that, he's more a response to it if anything.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:19
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BIG BABY JESUS posted:I have a BA Phil and its fine, I guess. But increasingly people, particularly young people, at least in Australia, are talking about masculinity and gender in increasingly skeptical ways, and we have ad campaigns about being respectful to women, on TV and streaming sites, we have had extended discussions about the lives of women in politics - and how men alter those lives. These discussions are happening whether jorp wants them to or not, and as much as public figures talk about them there hasn't necessarily been a singular champion that has made them happen. There's really no need for Butler, Deleuze, Beauvoir, Foucault, Marx, whatever, to launch those discussions off. Can a bottom still be a strong man? Totally! Lil Nas X is speaking to that topic in a way that is perhaps even more effective than peterson would likely be negative about it. Like, thinking we need another public (pseudo)intellectual to counter peterson already strikes me as adversarial and defense/offense. The discussions we have with our friends and on forums, all change the landscape, one person at a time. I'm not looking for nations of philosopher kings here either, honestly, I'd rather not gulag most people. My scope has been pretty limited here to the whole online culture war business where only the other team seems to have captains. And that absolutely does have an impact, even if it might be easy to overstate the importance of the IDW's effective monopoly on the public intellectual culture industry. If you deal with living breathing humans in local politics, most things change, even when these guys come up. Kind of like you said about your small town scene. Maybe you're right. The inverse might be in how widely I've seen US or my national medias starting to take more anti-woke stances in recent months. Reasons wary. Politics of gender and sex are one crucial part of politics of emancipation, but when they are spearheaded by FAANGs just as much as Lil Nas X, my question is what the subversive left politics actually is. It's not my HR department torturing themselves over finding one Black programmer in my city to employ (I know the guy, he's not interested). This is performativity, too. Suffice to say I don't mean to draw battle lines between myself and anyone else here, far from it, and it'd be at least a thousand words to get into the whole universal/particular line dance on how I view identity questions, but that's not really so topical anymore. I think identity politics is all well and good, basically, but in Zizek's words, it's not that it's too radical, but not radical enough. There might be a productive disagreement there, but for now, it's getting late!
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Nov 15, 2021 03:28
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eSporks posted:Is Lil Nas X actually converting anyone? Sure he's popular with people already on board, but he brings out the reactionaries too. L maybe nobody is citing lil nas x in their conversion/journey but the conversations do happen, surrounding him, and conversations do change minds like is it possible to be a masculine and successful man and be a bottom? lil nas x answers that question to an extent, and that answer probably answers some people's questions to me the idea we need another intellectual to quote and cite in our particular journeys/conversions, is already a reactionary impulse
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Nov 15, 2021 03:31
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Ihki posted:I'm not looking for nations of philosopher kings here either, honestly, I'd rather not gulag most people. My scope has been pretty limited here to the whole online culture war business where only the other team seems to have captains. And that absolutely does have an impact, even if it might be easy to overstate the importance of the IDW's effective monopoly on the public intellectual culture industry. If you deal with living breathing humans in local politics, most things change, even when these guys come up. Kind of like you said about your small town scene. Night! this is another funny one to me - that we can look at HR departments as criticizeable under jorp's model, and his criticisms are mostly along the lines of postmodern neo-marxism. AHhhhhh yes, those hotbeds of marxist postmodernism, corporate HR departments! This theory of everything, is incomprehensible. its really a sign of how unpopular racism and sexism have become, that companies have decided under capitalism to spend Money on at least, being perceived to be anti-racist and anti-sexist. And yeah, on the left there are plenty of critiques of this lip-service paid to diversity, the pinkwashing, and the one month of rainbow corporate pride. But to jorp, the left is a monolith of thought, there's no nuance there, so corporate HR departments and philosophy students with pink hair are one and the same. Laughable!!! subversive left politics are as centrally defined as the right's are - and on the right I see disagreements and arguments over who the captain is, regularly. If gender studies departments had as much power as jorp said, they wouldn't have been widely defunded and defanged since '08. They can't even convince universities to keep themselves funded!!! And yeah, on the left there is skepticism about universities, even, skepticism that may perhaps surprise some people who see universities as beholden to Da Left! During COVID these departments were further dismantled and I've seen a lot of angry and impotent Discourse about it. Oh, how the all powerful have fallen!!!
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Nov 15, 2021 03:58
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Harald posted:well i've never been through benzo withdrawals, but I know I just don't want this post to be buried in the serious intellectual discussion because it tickled my fancy
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Nov 15, 2021 04:30
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Cite this: jordan petersons an dick (austin 3:16)
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Nov 15, 2021 05:39
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My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1995/4/26/jordan-peterson-pharvard-students-may-know/ I always found this article interesting. I hate leftists who just say "oh lol Peterson is for dumb people lol (not like me I'm so smart I have an undergraduate degree in philosophy!)". Way to be loving insufferable nerds. Peterson's credibility is so simple to temper yet almost all the criticisms I see are absolute loving bullshit garbage which seem hell bent on demonstrating how educated the person criticizing him is while completely ignoring the obvious fact that he offers something which strongly resonates with people across many different demographics! All that does is that just make him more appealing! It's not like you can even claim the moral high ground because you haven't demonstrated that you have it! Oh great you're not superficially poo poo to minorities, wow congratulations. That such is even considered an achievement worthy of veneration is truly evidence of how low we all are.
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Nov 15, 2021 06:51
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Lol they just keep coming
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Nov 15, 2021 07:01
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Powerful Katrinka posted:That seems to be a common issue with that type: they don't understand that many people aren't 100% consumed with passion about Thing one way or the other. It has to be an obsessive hatred or pure adulation, there can never be casual interest, or using Thing as a springboard for a conversation or enjoying others' company. Like this thread: I read and participate in it because it's interesting to me and funny, I've learned some cool things, and get to talk about some niche, supremely dorky things with people who also want to talk about niche, supremely dorky things. It's an easy conversation that can be put down and picked up at leisure, people can read and respond as they choose between doing other things because it's just one of the many things that can hold their interest throughout the day. Reading this really opened me up to a realization into a personal relationship I had. Thanks for this.
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Nov 15, 2021 07:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Lol they just keep coming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3BFzSD6YY&t=22s
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Nov 15, 2021 07:22
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. All peterson does is attempt to demonstrate he's educated and, he fooled you Oolb posted:It's not like you can even claim the moral high ground because you haven't demonstrated that you have it! Oh great you're not superficially poo poo to minorities, wow congratulations. That such is even considered an achievement worthy of veneration is truly evidence of how low we all are. who's trying to claim the moral high ground here? Your hero is a clown.
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Nov 15, 2021 07:35
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. Are you on meds you shouldnt be taking? Or off meds you should be taking?
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Nov 15, 2021 07:46
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'You're so proud of pretending not to be racist' is pretty lol
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Nov 15, 2021 07:47
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. Most psychologists tend to disagree with that take, IME.
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Nov 15, 2021 07:50
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BIG BABY JESUS posted:He's an unironic Jungian psychoanalyst in the year of our lord 2021 which is funny as hell
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Nov 15, 2021 07:58
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. He ate so meat he went into a meat sweat coma and was sent to a special Russian meat sweats hospital where his daughter performed a ritual forbidden in the psychologist world for over 300 years. She now puppetiers Jordan’s soulless husk, her astral fist jammed right up his psycho-colon. Now she preaches to her choir who slowly succumb to the words. They will know her, they will become her. Peterson will enter us all.
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Nov 15, 2021 08:04
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I just can't fathom seeing this and saying to yourself, yes this is a smart person. Pinnochio clip.
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Nov 15, 2021 08:20
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A Jorp supporter admitting Jorp might just be uneducated on a lot of things is a new one, yet they still like him anyway because apparently that's an endearing trait--he's like Kanye!
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Nov 15, 2021 09:04
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I'm a leftist so uneducated that I've dropped out of school twice and still don't have a degree at 28. I've never cracked a book of philosophy, I prefer rereading LotR. jorp's philosophy is dumb as hell.
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Nov 15, 2021 09:55
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jorp's philosophy has no meaningful connection to objective reality (hehe). the best way to understand it is to treat it as ravings of an incredibly troubled man with severe mental health issues. a troubled man who yearns for some sort of a tether but cannot find one, and lashes out at perceived Others who supposedly took it away from him. not realising that the culprit is him, only him and no one else he is in a hell of his own making, but something compells him to drag anyone who would listen to him down into this hell of his. which is unfortunately a great number of young impressionable people, as we all know nurmie fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 10:28
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hehe
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Nov 15, 2021 10:34
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Oolb posted:It's not like you can even claim the moral high ground because you haven't demonstrated that you have it! Oh great you're not superficially poo poo to minorities, wow congratulations. That such is even considered an achievement worthy of veneration is truly evidence of how low we all are. Oh I agree, that’s a real low bar and clearing it is not an achievement. No one should be proud of not being a bigot; not being a bigot should be the absolute least you expect from people you respect. What does it say about Jorp that he can’t even clear that bar?
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Nov 15, 2021 10:47
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Oolb posted:It's not like you can even claim the moral high ground because you haven't demonstrated that you have it! Oh great you're not superficially poo poo to minorities, wow congratulations. That such is even considered an achievement worthy of veneration is truly evidence of how low we all are. Some of us are actually minorities, so gently caress off on that idiot lol
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Nov 15, 2021 10:54
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'You're so proud of pretending not to be racist' is pretty lol It's always projection. "I am a turd who never helps other people without reward, therefore everyone kind and generous is actually getting paid off, somehow."
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Nov 15, 2021 11:09
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. What your opinion on granny pubes and Russian comas?
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Nov 15, 2021 12:26
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Peterson, Jordan
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Nov 15, 2021 12:40
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I love people that say Jordo speaks on a level that really resonates with certain people (white dudes) like it's super profound and world view altering and then you click on a random video of his and you see a jaundiced scarecrow with Kermit's voice ugly crying about Frozen
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Nov 15, 2021 13:41
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Only an incomprehensibly titanic intellectual heavyweight could come up with the phrase "postmodern neo-Marxism". No, he'll never explain what that is you're too stupid to understand it just be in awe of his astonishing intellect. No no stop trying to define words to figure out what they mean he's just smart you're not he used big words you dumb-head.
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Nov 15, 2021 13:50
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology. It's his cadence and passion and the information here is I think generally good. I think he's a lot like Kanye emotionally. He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! To me he just seems like a respectable conservative, but I think that's only because on the left and right there's no spiritual or moral core. Why do people keep coming into this thread, not reading anything anyone has written, writing up a big argumentative post based off of what they think people think, posting it and then never coming back to this thread because they won’t actually discuss things The gently caress
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Nov 15, 2021 13:52
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rotinaj posted:Why do people keep coming into this thread, not reading anything anyone has written, writing up a big argumentative post based off of what they think people think, posting it and then never coming back to this thread because they won’t actually discuss things Because that is what Peterson stans do everywhere. it's loving exhausting because the moment you verbally club one into submission, the next one shows up with exactly the same drivel. I think this is called "destroying the libs with logic" Dongsturm fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 13:58
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Oolb posted:My Take 1) Do you think women wear lipstick to signal that they want to be raped? 2) How would you describe your grandmother's pubes?
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Nov 15, 2021 14:02
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With arms wide open - Creed
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Nov 15, 2021 14:04
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I sort of just spent a page and a half building a semi-contrarian anti-Jorp position which was looking at the material and ideological practicality of people who genuinely like the guy for substantive reasons, and I thought I conceded there's quite a bit more to it than how he makes you feel fuzzy and academic words (unless used by Peterson) make you scared and insecure. My generous reasoning for this would include something like how Jordan is a Christian conservative response to the anglophone death of metaphysics, celebrated too soon by scientism. What does seem to be true is how any criticism of the guy quickly becomes loving bullshit garbage. I guess the funny part is, I really don't see any other objections you've made other than how Jorp makes you feel fuzzy, and academic words make you feel scared and insecure. It's like you're afraid the world is trying to stop you from cumming. Sometimes it is just that simple. It's interesting.
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Nov 15, 2021 14:09
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