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So the Slaanesh roster will probably be this. Lords N'kari Exalted Keeper of Secrets Herald of Slaanesh Heroes Alluress Cultist of Slaanesh Infantry Daemonettes Exalted Daemonettes Marauders of Slaanesh (Hellspear and Scourge Variants) Calvary Hellstriders (Mortal Calvary. Hellspear and Scourge Variants) Seekers of Slaanesh Heartseekers of Slaanesh (Exalted version of the above) Others Fiends of Slaanesh Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh Hellflayer of Slaanesh (Different type of Chariot) Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh Soul Grinder Furies Keeper of Secrets MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 19:17
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 15:54 |
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:
Adding to Undivided isn't boring chat, the various warbands from AoS's skirmish spin-off Warcry all have God-agnostic views of Chaos and worship it in wildly different guises while being technically Chaos Undivided.  For example the Iron Golems worship Chaos as the Great Warbringer, and worship it by forging the finest weapons and armour they can for the mortal legions of Chaos.  Meanwhile the Corvus Cabal see Chaos as the ultimate scavenger, the thief that steals all things precious. Possessions, lives, everything, and worship it by emulating carrion birds and getting up to regular murder and thiefery.  Then we have the Unmade, whose obsession with pain and mutilation goes right into Slaanesh territory, but theirs is more as seeing Chaos as a Universal force of Agony, and worship it by spreading that agony to every living thing. Obviously this tends to get drowned out since Undivided's poster boys in Warhammer are the most snoresome examples (generic Warriors of Chaos and Black Legion) but there is a lot of potential in the concept they're teasing out.
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Dec 9, 2021 19:20
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Here Images to show off the three types of Slaanesh Chariot  
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Dec 9, 2021 19:22
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jokes posted:This post is weird The difference in perspective, I guess, is that I typically ignore the campaign goals and instead search for interesting fights. Sure, burning down the Empire is tedious. But with Chaos, you basically have the option to go anywhere. Travel along the north and gently caress with dark elves, sail to Ulthuan and fight high elves, set off along the eastern edge of the map and work your way down into the Badlands. It's like the old Beastmen campaigns, I never really got why people hated them so much. You could go anywhere! Fight anyone! If things got too hot or you got bored, go somewhere else! Sure, there would be tough moments. The start can be rough, when you're relying on Marauders. Once you get a developed army, though, you should be able to take all comers. And isn't that the pleasure of that faction? You get an expensive, powerful, super-elite army sitting in the middle of hostile territory while everyone throws their best shots at you.
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Dec 10, 2021 02:18
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The best part about Chaos and Beastmen is you go and get the Sword of Khaine and then power whoever has it up to the point that armies are merely moral support for your howling doombeast who ends empires single-handedly. Downsides are really only the monetary costs for Chaos, and next to nothing for Beastmen. Sometimes it's nice to play a faction whose entire thing is "gently caress all of this noise".
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Dec 10, 2021 02:26
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Gonkish posted:The best part about Chaos and Beastmen is you go and get the Sword of Khaine and then power whoever has it up to the point that armies are merely moral support for your howling doombeast who ends empires single-handedly. Downsides are really only the monetary costs for Chaos, and next to nothing for Beastmen. At this point there's literally no drawback for Beastmen -- no upkeep, no public order, no problem!
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Dec 10, 2021 03:12
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Muscle Tracer posted:At this point there's literally no drawback for Beastmen -- no upkeep, no public order, no problem! Watching Taurox or Archaon loving wreck an army single-handedly is great. Incredibly satisfying.
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Dec 10, 2021 04:43
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litany of gulps posted:The difference in perspective, I guess, is that I typically ignore the campaign goals and instead search for interesting fights. Sure, burning down the Empire is tedious. But with Chaos, you basically have the option to go anywhere. Travel along the north and gently caress with dark elves, sail to Ulthuan and fight high elves, set off along the eastern edge of the map and work your way down into the Badlands. Chaos can get pretty hard countered by certain factions and on higher difficulties the number of armies the AI can continually spam out will wear you down eventually. Chaos also suffers from not having a lot of map visibility so you occasionally get caught by annoying multi-stacks. Using the Dark Elves, black arks and the slave economy you can basically do the same thing except with 20 armies or more and just steamroll the entire world.
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Dec 10, 2021 04:51
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Muscle Tracer posted:At this point there's literally no drawback for Beastmen -- no upkeep, no public order, no problem! Case in point: the biggest drawback to playing Chaos in campaign is you don't have ambush stance so you have to position your armies carefully every turn. Meanwhile Beastmen have ambush-move and can stack up four armies to crack a siege no prob.
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Dec 10, 2021 04:54
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nvidiagouge posted:Chaos can get pretty hard countered by certain factions and on higher difficulties the number of armies the AI can continually spam out will wear you down eventually. Chaos also suffers from not having a lot of map visibility so you occasionally get caught by annoying multi-stacks. Using the Dark Elves, black arks and the slave economy you can basically do the same thing except with 20 armies or more and just steamroll the entire world. Yeah, but when you get worn down by constant fighting, that's when you quit and start a different campaign. When you get bored, you should stop and do something else. Just like when you've got 20 armies with your dark elves and you're autoresolving every fight, nobody actually steamrolls the entire world. Why would you? What even would be the point? You quit and start a new game. Or you quit and don't start a new game, you play something else for a while. That's the entire point. The point isn't to paint the map or achieve some arbitrary campaign goals. The point is to fight interesting battles. If your campaign no longer is giving your interesting battles, why are you still playing it?
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Dec 10, 2021 05:04
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Thing about horde factions is you don’t get to just sit there and say “I don’t care if I lose 3 full armies it’ll take me like 5 turns to rebuild all those units and they’ll probably be better because I can get recruitment bonuses” like other normal factions because losing the momentum as a horde faction is just an awful slog. However other horde factions get awesome momentum things like Taurox’s movement poo poo so you steamroll everything. Chaos doesn’t. Still, very good army roster.
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Dec 10, 2021 05:09
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litany of gulps posted:Yeah, but when you get worn down by constant fighting, that's when you quit and start a different campaign. When you get bored, you should stop and do something else. The entire concept of TW is the strategic layer and the battle layer both exist and are fun. That's why people wanted TW: Warhammer not EU: Warhammer or Ultimate General: Middenland. If one layer has terrible mechanics and is a slog, that's a problem. Completing campaigns is fun and satisfying. It should be something you can do while having fun.
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Dec 10, 2021 05:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The entire concept of TW is the strategic layer and the battle layer both exist and are fun. That's why people wanted TW: Warhammer not EU: Warhammer or Ultimate General: Middenland. If one layer has terrible mechanics and is a slog, that's a problem. Completing campaigns is fun and satisfying. It should be something you can do while having fun. I didn't claim that the strategic layer of certain horde factions wasn't fun. I said that whatever arbitrary goals set to accomplish the campaign victory weren't necessarily fun. There's a thrill to being hunted by powerful, established factions on the world map when you play as Chaos or Beastmen. There's a thrill to setting up camp in the middle of a powerful faction's territory and loving them up. When I play a Chaos campaign, I don't much care about burning down the Empire, usually. I can... burn down any faction I want. That isn't discarding the strategic layer, that's discarding the irrelevant and tedious goals of the campaign. There's a difference. I've been playing a Norsca campaign right now. I've got an army on Ulthuan. I've got an army in the north, fighting against Naggarond. I've barely touched the Empire. I haven't consolidated the North. I took Altdorf, but I haven't wiped out Reikland. The game on the strategic layer isn't necessarily about some weird whack-a-mole game with capturing provinces from certain factions.
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Dec 10, 2021 05:40
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litany of gulps posted:I didn't claim that the strategic layer of certain horde factions wasn't fun. I said that whatever arbitrary goals set to accomplish the campaign victory weren't necessarily fun. There's a thrill to being hunted by powerful, established factions on the world map when you play as Chaos or Beastmen. There's a thrill to setting up camp in the middle of a powerful faction's territory and loving them up. When I play a Chaos campaign, I don't much care about burning down the Empire, usually. I can... burn down any faction I want. That isn't discarding the strategic layer, that's discarding the irrelevant and tedious goals of the campaign. There's a difference.  like after a certain point of familiarity with the game you're kinda just trying to make weird poo poo happen. last time I played Nakai, I went south immediately and beat up brettonia. went further south and met up with TikTaq and Kroq-Gar. I got to confederate Last Defenders and replaced a mid-level horde army with our boy Kroq for like 17 gold saurus; when stacking all the upkeep reductions. that's loving hilarious yo
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Dec 10, 2021 08:17
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jokes posted:Thing about horde factions is you don’t get to just sit there and say “I don’t care if I lose 3 full armies it’ll take me like 5 turns to rebuild all those units and they’ll probably be better because I can get recruitment bonuses” like other normal factions because losing the momentum as a horde faction is just an awful slog. However other horde factions get awesome momentum things like Taurox’s movement poo poo so you steamroll everything. Chaos doesn’t. Did they ever change the horde factions like beastmen so if their immortal lord dies and comes back it doesn't lose every single upgrade in their horde buildings and starts from scratch? Even vampirates don't have to rebuild after a loss.
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Dec 10, 2021 11:04
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I think I might have preferred beastmen before the update, there's no challenge to them at all anymore /hipster
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Dec 10, 2021 12:10
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Communist Thoughts posted:I think I might have preferred beastmen before the update, there's no challenge to them at all anymore I love the new beastman mechanics in general but yeah they're definitely too strong. It's funny to steamroll the planet in two turns as Taurox there's not much to go back to once you've done it once.
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Dec 10, 2021 12:36
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litany of gulps posted:Yeah, but when you get worn down by constant fighting, that's when you quit and start a different campaign. When you get bored, you should stop and do something else. I find that to maintain momentum in the later game when other factions have consolidated and have high level lords and units you actually have to fight most of your battles. With the Dark Elves in particular, there's a huge swath of land in the old world between the badlands and khemri that's all inhospitable terrain that presents a fairly good challenge to conquer and keep hold of after you've bulldozed the easier provinces.
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Dec 10, 2021 15:19
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Communist Thoughts posted:I think I might have preferred beastmen before the update, there's no challenge to them at all anymore I honestly felt this way with Taurox too. Felt like I could do anything I wanted and the AI could never, ever even come close to stopping me straight from Turn 1. They can't even keep up most of the time. TBF this is still better than pre-rework Beastmen so...
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Dec 10, 2021 17:48
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I always thought they were already very strong with ambush attack and hidden encampments making them way better than almost any faction at picking their fights. Plus great campaign buffs and gorebulls I don't pay any attention to campaign objectives though so maybe that's why people didn't like them.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:24
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Hidden camps were less fun when Karl, Boris, Louen, Grimgor, and Wurrzag, with 25 of their closest friends, were all chasing you around the map by turn 3 despite being "hidden." Stealth as much as you want, woops, somehow Karl's stack is here and he gives 0 poo poo about the 12 norscan and orc stacks in Reikland.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:39
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They’ve turned bestial rage into a nothing mechanic. There’s no real penalty for failing to maintain it. It’s nice to benefit it, but you’ve gotten a horde’s main building to tier 5, there’s no point to it. Despite that, there’s still a whole set of post-victory options where you forgo other rewards in exchange for it.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:49
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The two biggest achievements of the Beastmen rework are herdstones/slaughter grounds(a fantastic solution to the abysmal game of resettlement whack-a-mole that every horde faction struggles with) and their new economy, which feels a lot better and more sensible than them just using money normally and having an economy that is poo poo early game and becomes trivial once you can knock over a couple of faction capitals. Their unit cap implementation is just a refined version of the TK one but it's also way better and the game would benefit if they gave a system like it to everyone.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:53
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The slaughter ground garrisons are honestly maybe a bit too powerful what with the ability to cause plagues and to brutalize stamina for any army on approach.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:25
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The actual values in-game are absolutely too strong, but the core idea of "i put down a disposable settlement here whose primary purpose is to lock out enemy resettlement in an area until they root it out" is sublime.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:34
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Unit caps for high end units in every faction wouldn't really work out balance wise because of how good some early game units are for some factions. Elven archers, darkshards, quarrelers, etc. can all do really good damage to late game units with a cheap chaff screening unit like spearmen in front of them. Bringing a lot of the late game stuff to bear, especially single or low entity count units, requires pressuring with them in multiple areas. It's a big reason why the dread saurians aren't that great.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:49
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Kanos posted:The actual values in-game are absolutely too strong, but the core idea of "i put down a disposable settlement here whose primary purpose is to lock out enemy resettlement in an area until they root it out" is sublime. Yeah, and Warriors of Chaos would really benefit from having this mechanic as well, I think.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:08
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I think you should be “forced” to use 10 core units for every race and they should all be roughly balanced with one another.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:08
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nvidiagouge posted:Unit caps for high end units in every faction wouldn't really work out balance wise because of how good some early game units are for some factions. Elven archers, darkshards, quarrelers, etc. can all do really good damage to late game units with a cheap chaff screening unit like spearmen in front of them. Bringing a lot of the late game stuff to bear, especially single or low entity count units, requires pressuring with them in multiple areas. It's a big reason why the dread saurians aren't that great. You can put unit caps on archer units so you can't stick 15 of them in every stack; there's nothing that says that missile units have to be uncapped core units. Tomb Kings already do this - if you want to spam archers everywhere you have to build a bunch of barracks, which is absolutely a choice you can make if you want but it's an investment you're making, as opposed to elves where you can poo poo out infinity darkshards/shades/archers/sisters the nanosecond you have the building and your economy can support it(which, well, you're elves, so it can support it). Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 20:18
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Tirranek posted:Yeah, and Warriors of Chaos would really benefit from having this mechanic as well, I think. Absolutely. This is what I meant when I talked about not back-porting new horde mechanics to WoC making them feel not so great to play on campaign
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Dec 10, 2021 20:27
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Kanos posted:The actual values in-game are absolutely too strong, but the core idea of "i put down a disposable settlement here whose primary purpose is to lock out enemy resettlement in an area until they root it out" is sublime. Yeah it's such a great idea. I'm excited to see if ogre camps work as well as I think about basically letting you walk deep into an enemy area and set up a kind of raiding camp.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:30
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nvidiagouge posted:Unit caps for high end units in every faction wouldn't really work out balance wise because of how good some early game units are for some factions. Elven archers, darkshards, quarrelers, etc. can all do really good damage to late game units with a cheap chaff screening unit like spearmen in front of them. Bringing a lot of the late game stuff to bear, especially single or low entity count units, requires pressuring with them in multiple areas. It's a big reason why the dread saurians aren't that great.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:07
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I mean I totally agree but there's some unit cap mods that seem alright to me? Pretty customizable too I think, haven't actually played in a bit
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Dec 10, 2021 21:09
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Kanos posted:You can put unit caps on archer units so you can't stick 15 of them in every stack; there's nothing that says that missile units have to be uncapped core units. Tomb Kings already do this - if you want to spam archers everywhere you have to build a bunch of barracks, which is absolutely a choice you can make if you want but it's an investment you're making, as opposed to elves where you can poo poo out infinity darkshards/shades/archers/sisters the nanosecond you have the building and your economy can support it(which, well, you're elves, so it can support it). Yeah but now you're dealing with the fact that on higher difficulties melee units are objectively awful for the player to use because of the buffs the AI gets. Even if you're using a higher tier, better unit, the AI is going to win in straight up fights most of the time. I guess you could make single entity units even stronger to compensate the unit cap? EDIT: Most of the mods that put in units caps effectively and have the game still be fun are part of a larger overhaul of units in general. Yes, I will take less shades and dark shards if I can now get cold one knights that don't rampage and also cause fear and poison instead to fill some of those slots. nvidiagouge fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 21:21
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nvidiagouge posted:Yeah but now you're dealing with the fact that on higher difficulties melee units are objectively awful for the player to use because of the buffs the AI gets. Even if you're using a higher tier, better unit, the AI is going to win in straight up fights most of the time. I guess you could make single entity units even stronger to compensate the unit cap? The current bonuses the AI gets in higher battle difficulties are pretty much unsustainable in terms of encouraging the usage of a lot of units on the player's side(lol @ very hard AI goblins fighting until the last man), so they probably should be completely thrown out and different bonuses that don't wildly skew individual unit viability so hard instituted; vigor reduction or something? A higher unit per army cap? I'm not sure, but those bonuses are part of the problem. You could absolutely afford to make single entities even stronger if you instituted unit caps. I think an environment where you're fielding like 3 super powerful shitwrecker monsters is way more interesting than fielding 19 middling monsters.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:30
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Maybe even something like tier 1 units refusing to fight or breaking super quick on those entities. Would make later tier infantry more viable too if they were the only ones who could effectively tar pit a dragon instead of your unit of drafted spearmen.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:36
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rideANDxORdie posted:Absolutely. This is what I meant when I talked about not back-porting new horde mechanics to WoC making them feel not so great to play on campaign Yeah and honestly I think them having this would fix most of their issues. They'd still be a bit one-note, but at least they could do what they're supposed to do. The only other 'fix' I thought might be good is tying habitability to chaos corruption. At 90-100% it's uncolonizeble, 70-80 it's red, and so on. I imagine a change like that is harder than it sounds, though.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:13
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Kanos posted:The current bonuses the AI gets in higher battle difficulties are pretty much unsustainable in terms of encouraging the usage of a lot of units on the player's side(lol @ very hard AI goblins fighting until the last man), so they probably should be completely thrown out and different bonuses that don't wildly skew individual unit viability so hard instituted; vigor reduction or something? A higher unit per army cap? I'm not sure, but those bonuses are part of the problem. Thing is poo poo like berzerker goblins doesn't actually happen on VH. VH at best can make the AI's troops equivalent to what they would be if their lords took red buffs instead +5 interception chance. Never mind that most people reporting ranged supremacy are on normal. Ranged are superior because of the battle engine and because losing some ammo means nothing while losing troops can delay you.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:23
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Tirranek posted:Yeah and honestly I think them having this would fix most of their issues. They'd still be a bit one-note, but at least they could do what they're supposed to do. I'd imagine the major problem with that is it's tough to influence corruption of unowned settlements.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ranged are superior because of the battle engine and because losing some ammo means nothing while losing troops can delay you. And because of arcing fire! 
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Dec 10, 2021 22:36
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