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Like, do you understand how preposterous that sounds? That there is a massive, billion person tracking system that covers nearly the entirety of the largest country on earth and nobody can provide a single example of it. Not one score, not even the idea of what a score might look like. Is a high number good? Is a low number good? Is it a ranking system or a relative score? Even pizza gate had more specific information, an address that someone could check.
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Feb 6, 2022 13:16
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There was an explanation, I can't recall if it was from this thread or the Eurasia thread, that whatever system deemed 'social credit' was primarily used for rural areas to track & prevent scam artists, hustlers, thieves etc. from freely traveling from one town to the next to repeat their ploys (as China can be quite large, populous, and hard to govern). This seemed more likely than some extreme method of crushing & ostracizing dissent, seeing as rural territories tend to not [usually] be where uncontrollable mass dissent & riots break out; you'd presumably use such a system around population & intelligentsia hubs. IIRC that same post also said that it was poorly implemented due to being very decentralized & inconsistent, so I doubt whatever its current state is would be promoted nationwide. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Feb 6, 2022 |
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Feb 6, 2022 13:23
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What I remember of social credit in Beijing specifically, as of around 2017(?), was that there was an app which had approved articles on it and ordinary citizens got points for reading them and party members were required to read a certain number each week and got an automated reminder like if you’re at work and you put off sitting through a compliance video until they caught up, with penalties if you went too long without catching up.
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Feb 6, 2022 13:55
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An app sounds very difficult to implement in rural areas that don't have access to the internet. Edit: do you have any screenshots from the app?
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Feb 6, 2022 14:14
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I think China has made a point of having mobile data available all over the country, even in the most remote locations. My 4G data was faster in the remotest corner of Yunnan than it is in Hong Kong. China is good at infrastructure.
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Feb 6, 2022 14:21
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Yeah, I doubt there's many parts of China no matter how rural that lack internet access.
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Feb 6, 2022 15:40
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Link to the app?
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Feb 6, 2022 17:13
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How about a screenshot? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2022 17:49
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this thread descending into the pedanticism of "pics or it didn't happen" does nothing but make things more tedious for everyone involved. I appreciate beefeater posting a concrete example of how something related to social credit actually played out in practice, we don't need to demand an accompanying bibliography
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Feb 6, 2022 18:00
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Ok then, which rumor should I believe: 1. It's a rural pilot program meant to track grifters. 2. It's a reading app deployed in Beijing. 3. It's an all encompassing tracker covering a billion people. All of them are contradictory. A social credit system can't only exist in rural areas if it also only exists in Bejing and also is omnipresent within the PRC. None of these claims have any hard evidence, not a screenshot, not a single actual credit score. Why should I believe any of them over the other? Or at all? FFS people we have a media literacy thread for a reason.
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Feb 6, 2022 18:21
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Ok then, which rumor should I believe: Ha welcome to trying to study China. I recommend academic sources, not media. https://www.academia.edu/44049971/G...l_Credit_System Even then, from the abstract: "However, the relationship between liberal and socialist subjectivities and that between rationalization and moralization is by no means a coherent one. The assemblage of social credit government is characterized by contradictions and contestations." You don't need to know what biopolitics and governmentality are to get a full understanding of what we can know of the social credit system. Everything in this paper tracks with everything I've seen about the current state of the system.
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Feb 6, 2022 18:38
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A big flaming stink posted:this thread descending into the pedanticism of "pics or it didn't happen" does nothing but make things more tedious for everyone involved. I appreciate beefeater posting a concrete example of how something related to social credit actually played out in practice, we don't need to demand an accompanying bibliography China isn't an alien planet, people have way too much of a habit of half hearing a story about a thing that happened in china and spinning it into unbreakable faith that that is a core element of life in china. It's not pedantic that people want someone to actually provide minimal evidence of some wacky dystopian grand claim. Like noticed how when investigated the claim of a society wide social credit score seems to have revised down to being maybe something some rural areas briefly trialed a long time ago when someone actually pressed for details.
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Feb 6, 2022 18:39
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Ok then, which rumor should I believe: Posters have already responded to your repeated questions and demands, and in their replies have included things like translated government documents that: a) describe at length the purpose of, and b) request comments and feedback from the Chinese public about the very thing you are disputing the existence of. Going "OK then, why can't you show me the social credit score of a single individual, huh? HUH?!" is not the gotcha that you think it is. Maybe you have an axe to grind, but the way you go about engaging other posters in this thread in general and on this topic in particular has been incredibly tedious.
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Feb 6, 2022 18:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:FFS people we have a media literacy thread for a reason. People have provided direct evidence from Chinese government entities for the subject under examination multiple times, at length, with direct links and translations, with appropriate sourcing and context and caveats. The media literacy thread OP talks at length about not approaching sources of information based on your prior beliefs. You refusing to do so in the pursuit of making GBS threads up yet another thread is entirely on you .You don't have a media literacy problem, you're just plain illiterate. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2022 18:54
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Horatius Bonar posted:Ha welcome to trying to study China. I recommend academic sources, not media. So reading this article I think at this point we can all agree that there is no system in China run by the government that assigns a “social credit” number to each citizen. A number which will go up for socially desirable behavior and down for socially undesirable behavior. Since this is how a large swath of the media defined the “social credit system” it’s fair to say that this system does not exist as advertised. As for the SCS described in the article: quote:In Fujian Province, China, a bank loan program linked to tax records allowed small enterprises to obtain loans without collateral. In Shanghai, a housing project offered trustworthy (shouxin) youth with excellent records of volunteering a year of rent-free accommodation. A man in Nanjing who defaulted on his debts was banned from overseas travel for failing to comply with a court judgement, and two construction companies in Sichuan Province were placed on a blacklist for failing to pay back wages to migrant workers. These examples were among the nationwide “Top 10 Model Cases of Joint Rewards and Sanctions” selected by the National All of this seems extremely anodyne, and not unique to China. You can face punishment for not complying with court rulings everywhere, and the bank loan program sounds largely the same as how a normal credit score would function in the US. Hardly the Black Mirror esque dystopia we’ve been led believe exists
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Feb 7, 2022 00:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:China isn't an alien planet, people have way too much of a habit of half hearing a story about a thing that happened in china and spinning it into unbreakable faith that that is a core element of life in china. It's not pedantic that people want someone to actually provide minimal evidence of some wacky dystopian grand claim. Like noticed how when investigated the claim of a society wide social credit score seems to have revised down to being maybe something some rural areas briefly trialed a long time ago when someone actually pressed for details. Well when you make journalism a crime people might get stuff wrong
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Feb 7, 2022 00:06
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I do love the "screen shots of uigyer genocide or it didnt happen" defense.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:18
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Despera posted:I do love the "screen shots of uigyer genocide or it didnt happen" defense. Are you referring to the discussion about social credit? If so it's not really necessary and kinda unhelpful to invoke the Uighurs. I don't recall anyone making a claim like that about the Uighurs.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:29
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Fritz the Horse posted:Are you referring to the discussion about social credit? If so it's not really necessary and kinda unhelpful to invoke the Uighurs. I don't recall anyone making a claim like that about the Uighurs. Im just suprised the burden of proof for (corrrect) allegations is soo high. Harvest your organs, ok keep a file on you, woah no way.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:14
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Despera posted:Im just suprised the burden of proof for (corrrect) allegations is soo high. Harvest your organs, ok keep a file on you, woah no way. ??? What point are you trying to make? Do you believe my burden of proof for the existence of a social credit system too high?
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Feb 7, 2022 01:17
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Cpt_Obvious posted:??? i think he's trying to say that since china harvests organs, they're obviously doing many more bad things and so any specific bad news you read about china doesn't need much proof and can be assumed true
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Feb 7, 2022 01:35
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fart simpson posted:i think he's trying to say that since china harvests organs, they're obviously doing many more bad things and so any specific bad news you read about china doesn't need much proof and can be assumed true Wait, what? I must have missed this one.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:41
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Despera posted:Im just suprised the burden of proof for (corrrect) allegations is soo high. Harvest your organs, ok keep a file on you, woah no way. It's less that there's a specific point for burden of proof, and more that the goalposts constantly shift, because the rebuttal questions and arguments are made in questionable faith. Poster 1: "I don't believe this is true." Other posters: "Here are some news articles about it." Poster 1: "Well, I don't believe those, because :Western media:. Provide me with sources." Various Posters: "Ok, here's some academic research into it that has been verified." Other Various Posters: "And here's my personal anecode(s)." Poster 1: "Well, I still don't believe that, how about some pictures!" And around and around it goes. And it's allowed to continue under the auspices of "Well I'm being genuine! I'm just sparking discussion!", topic after topic.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:45
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SourKraut posted:Other Various Posters: "And here's my personal anecode(s)." The only personal anecdotes have been testimonies that these systems do not exist. For example: fart simpson posted:i live in mainland china and tbh i probably wouldn’t even know the system existed at all if not for western news reports
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Feb 7, 2022 01:57
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SourKraut posted:It's less that there's a specific point for burden of proof, and more that the goalposts constantly shift, because the rebuttal questions and arguments are made in questionable faith. Weird, because in the social credit conversation it seems like the goal posts shifted in the other direction. It started with multiple people confidently claiming it exists and is a major factor in chinese society prominently applying to every citizen and across the posting of several articles seems to have retracted over and over to "maybe it was trialed a decade ago in a few rural areas" and "a single city lets you earn points by biking"
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Feb 7, 2022 01:59
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Here's an interview about this very topic that recently dropped. I haven't listened to it yet, but the interviews I've heard on this podcast before are good. Edit, forgot the link: https://supchina.com/2022/02/03/how-chinas-laws-and-social-credit-system-actually-work-explained-by-jeremy-daum/Cpt_Obvious posted:??? Are you still arguing that it doesn't even exist? I'm pretty sure you're the only person in this entire exchange who is questioning its very existence. Go back to the start of this exchange. Being the masochistic idiot that I am, I just re-read it. It's only a few pages, so not that long. It started in response to your denial that Pooh was censored and CommieGIR’s mention of the social credit system in response. Subsequently, posters of every leaning acknowledge its existence and also question its portrayal as a universal, overbearing system. Posters with experience living in China (including me) chimed in saying they had no personal experience with it. Later someone even posted a link with screenshots of various apps that are part of the social credit ‘ecosystem’ (which suddenly strikes me as perhaps a better term for it), which seems like the very thing you’ve been looking for. It’s not even a critical article. Someone also posted a good SCMP overview that includes statements from Li Keqiang and the deputy director of the NDRC and statistics from PBOC and NDRC. There is overwhelming, credible evidence that this system exists and is not just some curiosity of a T4 local government. The lack of direct experience from goons is more a reminder that we have no mainland Chinese posters here (to my knowledge) and few posters with actual China experience, and thus a tiny, non-representative sample to work with. I'm not writing off their experience, because it's my experience, too. But I'll be the first to say that despite having never encountered this system personally, it's pretty obvious that it is a Thing. CommieGIR posted:This is a country who has enacted a Social Credit system that can be used to punish people who speak out mawarannahr posted:Do you know of cases where this has happened, or is there like a article about this topic showing how it has been used to do this? I’m curious, not doubtful. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Social credit system is up there with Winnie the Pooh for “a thing that was a real news story that Reddit has decided is a way bigger part of life in China than it ever was” MikeC posted:I think it is a bit more complicated than that. From what I understand, the system isn't universal and there is still some element of opt in. Goons actually living on the mainland will have more insight on exactly how much it affects them day to day but it hasn't become the all-pervasive big brother yet. SlothfulCobra posted:The social credit system hasn't produced many big stories, just some about people getting locked out of the mass transit system or about behaviors that lose people points that seem unfair or even racist. Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean more like..... the social credit system is a thing that exists in the world but is also an extremely overhyped meme in the anti-china reddit/twitter sphere. Where a lot of the stories are misinterpretations, not actual policies, relabeling some other sort of action as "the social credit score" or just plain fake. Like take anything you hear about it with a big grain of salt. (Oocc then seems to pivot to denying its existence, though, so I’m not sure what’s going on there.) Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why do you believe this system exists so much? Why does people telling you it doesn’t not change your opinions on if it does? Smeef fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 02:17
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But it hasn't yet become 'Skynet' in terms of its centrality and apparently, the labeling, enforcement, and consequences of a low social credit rating can be fragmented and largely up to the hands of local officials.
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Smeef posted:The lack of direct experience from goons is more a reminder that we have no mainland Chinese posters here (to my knowledge) There are some that post itt and it's impossible to know how many lurkers are on the mainland.
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Feb 7, 2022 02:28
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I'm actually genuinely surprised, now that I think about it, that we don't have any Chinese citizens posting here. You'd think in a nation of a billion + people there'd be a handful of goony people who would find their way here 
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Feb 7, 2022 02:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Weird, because in the social credit conversation it seems like the goal posts shifted in the other direction. See my post above. That's simply not how this discussion started, and I didn't see anyone subsequently asserting that it "is a major factor in chinese society prominently applying to every citizen."
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Feb 7, 2022 02:33
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How are u posted:I'm actually genuinely surprised, now that I think about it, that we don't have any Chinese citizens posting here. You'd think in a nation of a billion + people there'd be a handful of goony people who would find their way here My wife and I are Chinese, we just don’t post here anymore because apparently Chinese opinions don’t matter here. See examples above. Posters and their spouses who are Chinese citizens are dismissed because apparently they live in a Urban Bubble. Nevermind that most Chinese living in citizens are like first generation urbanites who have close ties to their rural families. GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 03:42
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How are u posted:I'm actually genuinely surprised, now that I think about it, that we don't have any Chinese citizens posting here. You'd think in a nation of a billion + people there'd be a handful of goony people who would find their way here there are a few chinese posters in the cspam eurasia thread, you can try your luck there
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Feb 7, 2022 03:50
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GlassEye-Boy posted:My wife and I are Chinese, we just don’t post here anymore because apparently Chinese opinions don’t matter here. You mean opinions like this? GlassEye-Boy posted:What makes you think Uighir and Tibetan language and religion arent protected? As long as they're not dissenting against the gov't that is. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 7, 2022 04:05
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Lord of Lies posted:You mean opinions like this? yeah, thats a great example of what he's talking about. thanks for finding it.
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Feb 7, 2022 04:10
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Lord of Lies posted:You mean opinions like this? Lol sure, everything you quoted is factual.
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Feb 7, 2022 04:16
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Despera posted:Im just suprised the burden of proof for (corrrect) allegations is soo high. Harvest your organs, ok keep a file on you, woah no way. You are not obligated to meet Cpt_Obvious or anyone's burden of proof. Your last several posts have made strong claims about China and other posters (making journalism a crime, "screenshots of Uighur genocide or it didn't happen" as an argument, organ harvesting). You may argue any position you like in D&D, but are expected to provide some evidence or reasoning, please make an attempt to do so in the future.
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Feb 7, 2022 04:24
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GlassEye-Boy posted:My wife and I are Chinese, we just don’t post here anymore because apparently Chinese opinions don’t matter here. Well, I hope you keep posting in this thread anyway, because the thread benefits from more perspectives, and right now there is probably no greater marginal value to this thread than actual Chinese posters.
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Feb 7, 2022 04:42
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So, GlassEye-Boy, can you tell us what you know about this social credit system we've heard so much about?
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Feb 7, 2022 05:24
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GlassEye-Boy posted:My wife and I are Chinese, we just don’t post here anymore because apparently Chinese opinions don’t matter here. I was the one who made the suggestion that the China posters itt probably live in an "affluent urban bubble" (myself included) and I'm sorry if you took that to mean I was dismissing your opinions. It definitely doesn't mean that "Chinese opinions don't matter". I was primarily referring with that comment to the two posters who identified as living in China and suggested that because they had personally never experienced the social credit system, it therefore did not exist. I merely meant to point out that the rural experience in mainland China is very different from the urban one. It's a facile point as you note (as most Chinese do have connections to the countryside). I was also thinking about how a poster had previously commented that high property prices in China were arguably a good thing and that wages were high, which is definitely not something that gels with much of the rural experience, especially in places like Guizhou and Yunnan where I regularly travel for work. Anyway, please don't leave the thread on account of one superficial remark!
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Feb 7, 2022 05:28
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Cpt_Obvious posted:So, GlassEye-Boy, can you tell us what you know about this social credit system we've heard so much about? It would be more productive for thread discussion if you would either engage with responses to your posts or offer your own positive arguments and information regarding social credit systems in China, rather than simply asking for proof from others. That said, GlassEye-Boy and others are of course welcome to share whatever they care to.
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Feb 7, 2022 05:44
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I find it hard to believe that the social credit system is entirely localized to the Zhengzhou - Kaifeng high speed rail line. You get on the train and the little intercom message says the whole "dont smoke dont spit otherwise you will be punished and it'll affect your social credit score" thing, which is fine because really don't smoke or spit on the train. But for what it's worth I have never accosted a train attendant for details or written a letter to Beijing demanding my personal score on a signed and stamped paper.
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Feb 7, 2022 05:53
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