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true.spoon posted:To some degree I do think that the reason China was blindsided, even after receiving US intelligence, is that the CCP does fundamentally not believe in good faith diplomacy (Russia is similar in that regard). Everything is always seen as a big power game, where you grab as much as you can and to that end you constantly hide your motives to trick the other side (not that the the West never uses such tactics but this is about fundamental assumptions). I think that's one element, but the thing that caught my eye was the implication/assumption in the article that the CCP was projecting onto Russia it's own military doctrine (win without fighting) and assumed that was what Russia was doing. Obviously it's much harder to tell what the policy community in China actually thinks or is saying behind closed doors within government, but the implication that China has no Michael Kofman or Fiona Hill or any of the other quite serious Russia watchers in the West who were sounding alarm bells feels odd.
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Mar 1, 2022 11:59
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true.spoon posted:Crosspost from the War thread: ...so, the entirely sensible and realistic worldview? Gee, you'd wonder why China doesn't consider Western nations to be paragons of acting in good faith, generous and trustworthy.
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Mar 1, 2022 12:33
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I'm really glad the world united to economically nuke Russia, because it has got to be making China nervous about their own eventual plans to try to annex Taiwan. I just wish we lent support to the latter now, as opposed to waiting until after the invasion happens.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:09
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As with Ukraine in much of the late 2000s/early 2010s, it was questionable how much they really wanted to align with the West in the long term. Only too imaginable to postulate a series of corrupt or mediocre leaderships discrediting Europhilia instead of reinforcing it. Putin has changed all that, but of course nobody saw that coming Ultimately it is on Taiwan to make a decisive break and bear the fallout; nobody else will do it for them. Ambiguity as ambiguous does. It may be just a few elections down the road for Taiwan - once-untouchable third rails can evaporate surprisingly quickly past critical electoral thresholds - but point is, those have to happen first.
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Mar 1, 2022 15:33
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I'm really glad the world united to economically nuke Russia, because it has got to be making China nervous about their own eventual plans to try to annex Taiwan. I just wish we lent support to the latter now, as opposed to waiting until after the invasion happens. Oh yeah. I imagine the alacrity with which Europe has united in opposition to Russia and the speed at which incredibly harsh sanctions have ramped up have got to have surprised some of the CCP planners. Everybody in East Asia is nervous as gently caress about Chinese imperial ambition, and I imagine they would unite against China just as quickly. My, how things can change in a day.
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Mar 1, 2022 18:12
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tractor fanatic posted:I don't think Falun Gong ever really saw any popular support in the US. They saw their big wave back in the early 2000s when China/US relations were much warmer and as far as I knew people who'd heard about them knew them as a weird cult that China didn't like. They reentered the news in recent years since they spread their creepy tendrils across far right US media, but I never really saw like, liberals support them. Actually their newspaper the Epoch Times has a considerable readership in the United States, especially digitally Their youtube channel "China Uncensored" also appears to have 1.7 million subscribers which is pretty big, and a considerable portion of that would have to be Americans If you want an example of something that even liberals accept, they're all over China Tribunal, which the liberal media cites for evidence that China is harvesting Falun Gong organs. Pretty much every organ harvesting claim that floats in the western media can be traced back to the falun gong Red and Black fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 21:07
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Red and Black posted:Actually their newspaper the Epoch Times has a considerable readership in the United States, especially digitally Those are what I'm referring to as far right US media.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:42
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https://twitter.com/vshih2/status/1498751082683502595 a 10,000 word love letter to the Shanghai Communique, ping-pong diplomacy, etc. is weirdly timed re: current events, but I suppose it's the anniversary quote:两个世界大国，有什么样的纠结，不能够在这样的相视一笑中得到化解呢？ quote:What kind of entanglement does the two world powers have that cannot be resolved by looking at each other and smiling? (don't get me wrong, Chinese media is explicitly still saying that the ...ongoing incident is caused by the United States)
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Mar 1, 2022 21:46
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I do wonder how Xi and co really feel about Russia atm. Alongside Russia, China has been the other major beneficiary of a pretty naïve European foreign policy consensus (Germany's 'engagement through trade' policy etc.). In the space of a week Russia has burned that, and there's a major risk to China that European nations will stop forgiving China's transgressions so easily as a result.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think it's much less direct support of them and more like they have been the source of a lot of information about things like chinese prison abuse and organ harvesting, and things like chinese monitoring and disappearances and are a big source of how the west hears about these things. Correct. A lot of bad china stories have their roots in Falun Gong propaganda. Remember the Three Gorges Dam hysteria last year? Tofu infrastructure? More recently the whole Covid lab theory was heavily pushed and often sourced from the Falun Gong.
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Mar 1, 2022 22:27
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The Epoch Times is consistently the most batshit thing that has pipelining attempts in my feed. At first I thought it was because I wrote some critical poo poo about Shen Yun in my social media and there was a some kind of marketing link, but as time goes on I think there's an ethnicity targeting effort. Like I don't even get Ben Shapiro or PragerU pipelining, and I saw Rogan maybe once.
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Mar 1, 2022 22:32
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Correct. A lot of bad china stories have their roots in Falun Gong propaganda. Remember the Three Gorges Dam hysteria last year? Tofu infrastructure? More recently the whole Covid lab theory was heavily pushed and often sourced from the Falun Gong. Yeah, they have such a weird mix of being a legitimately oppressed group that also has a bizarrely loose definition of reality. Like China really does donate executed prisoners organs, that is a real and actual difficult ethical issue, but Falun Gong made up a whole thing about a concentration camp in a specific public hospital holding thousands of prisoners and a bunch of Japanese reporters went and looked and it was ping pong pizza levels of “there is definitely not a concentration camp in this extremely normal regular hospital”. Like they are clearly a group that actually gets brutalized and has actual stories but they seem to love weird fantastical stuff better when talking about any of it. Like they have a story about a mother and baby tortured by being held upside down that seems like probably an actual story, but they keep rereleasing the story as happening in different places always with more additional more dramatic and unlikely sounding new parts. Like a hit story that gets sequels. In a way they must know people know they are making it up, but seem to not know that hurts the original story that was actually real.
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Mar 2, 2022 01:25
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Also every video on youtube hides how absurdly bonkers shen yun shows are
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Mar 2, 2022 01:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Also every video on youtube hides how absurdly bonkers shen yun shows are I'm morbidly curious now, since all I know about the shows are memes about the ubiquity of their advertising. What exactly do you mean by "bonkers?"
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Mar 2, 2022 02:03
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lightrook posted:I'm morbidly curious now, since all I know about the shows are memes about the ubiquity of their advertising. What exactly do you mean by "bonkers?" Evil Karl Marx cloud monster
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Mar 2, 2022 02:41
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lightrook posted:I'm morbidly curious now, since all I know about the shows are memes about the ubiquity of their advertising. What exactly do you mean by "bonkers?" Stepping Into the Uncanny, Unsettling World of Shen Yun quote:I felt my forehead. The dances continued, sleeves swirling, skirts rippling. A man came onstage to sing a song in Chinese, which was translated on the screen behind him. “We follow Dafa, the Great Way,” he began, singing about a Creator who saved mankind and made the world anew. “Atheism and evolution are deadly ideas. Modern trends destroy what makes us human,” he sang. At the end of the song, the row of older white people sitting behind me clapped fervently. In the final dance number, a group of Falun Dafa followers, who wore blue and yellow and clutched books of religious teachings, battled for space in a public square with corrupt youth. (Their corruption was evident because they were wearing black, looking at their cell phones, and, in the case of two men, holding hands.) Chairman Mao appeared, and the sky turned black; the city in the digital backdrop was obliterated by an earthquake, then finished off by a Communist tsunami. A red hammer and sickle glowed in the center of the wave. Dazed, I rubbed my eyes and saw a huge, bearded face disappearing in the water.
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Mar 2, 2022 02:45
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Red and Black posted:Actually their newspaper the Epoch Times has a considerable readership in the United States, especially digitally Organ harvesting comes from calling hospitals and the average time it takes to get said organ. You dont need any dumb falong gong poo poo to look at the chinese organ market and figure out something isnt right Despera fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 02:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Evil Karl Marx cloud monster OK I never actually was curious about seeing a Shen Yun show until now. That sounds delightful.
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Mar 2, 2022 03:02
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How are u posted:OK I never actually was curious about seeing a Shen Yun show until now. That sounds delightful. I got a shen yun leaflet ad last week (in the UK). Not crazy enough to go though.
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Mar 2, 2022 03:06
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How are u posted:OK I never actually was curious about seeing a Shen Yun show until now. That sounds delightful. It’s too long and boring. It’s like 80% repetitive dull parts, 15% parts that are actually cool dancing and like 5% moments of extremely weird fever dream. I really wish there was a good video condensing down to the good parts, it’s too padded to be worth seeing in person but the good parts are wild. (Evil gay teens)
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Mar 2, 2022 03:22
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Correct. A lot of bad china stories have their roots in Falun Gong propaganda. Remember the Three Gorges Dam hysteria last year? Tofu infrastructure? More recently the whole Covid lab theory was heavily pushed and often sourced from the Falun Gong.  This is literally the Chinese version of Erdoğan's "all bad stories about Turkey are actually propaganda invented and spread by Fethullah Gülen and his cultists" and it's just as much of a no-brainer — as in, the only people who believe it are those with no brain. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 2, 2022 05:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Evil Karl Marx cloud monster I went to a Shen Yun show years ago because I thought "Chinese ballet? Sounds worth a look." Flipping through the program I realized it was sponsored by the Falun Gong, but they didn't do the Evil Karl Marx monster at the show I saw. I mean there was a flying Buddha-looking statue that knocked over some Chinese riot cops but I still feel profoundly ripped off.
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Mar 2, 2022 06:06
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How are u posted:OK I never actually was curious about seeing a Shen Yun show until now. That sounds delightful. You know when shows do parodies of dance routines or interpretive dance that's so over the top you could never understand it as anything but satire? Shen Yun does that where soon enough they have dancers holding up Ben Garrisonesque placards clearly labeling what they are referencing so you cannot possibly miss that the point of this part of it is Homosexuality Is A Cancer
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Mar 2, 2022 07:02
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Slow News Day posted:
It’s literally right out in the open, you don’t even have to do any digging. But maybe that requires too much brain power. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 2, 2022 07:45
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It's basically Chinese Qanon. For some reason the Chinese government doesn't like these guys? Weird.
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Mar 2, 2022 08:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's basically Chinese Qanon. For some reason the Chinese government doesn't like these guys? Weird. not sure that even qanon deserves to have their organs harvested
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Mar 2, 2022 09:12
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I went to a Shen Yun show years ago because I thought "Chinese ballet? Sounds worth a look." Apparently they workshop it for certain regions; quote:The vocal numbers, though, were different from the Houston production—instead of the song about atheism and evolution, a soprano in an evening gown sang a song that began, “Many today are far from the warmth of home / Separated by great distances from those they love.” It seemed likely that this was Shen Yun’s way of molding the production to local tastes; the other vocal number bemoaned the busyness of modern life. Similarly, a lot of past Shen Yun advertisement has danced around the concept, but now the climate in the US is such that "See China Before Communism" can be a draw in-of itself, without alienating too many people.
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Mar 2, 2022 09:15
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Well then, that's a little terrifying. Thanks for the help!
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Mar 2, 2022 09:18
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Despera posted:Organ harvesting comes from calling hospitals and the average time it takes to get said organ. Just so happens that all such efforts at accounting end up being connected to Falun Gong. Curious, that Red and Black fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 15:38
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Red and Black posted:Just so happens that all such efforts at accounting end up being connected to Falun Gong. Curious, that http://www.transplant-observatory.org/summary/ This is a Falun gong front? 
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Mar 2, 2022 15:52
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Horatius Bonar posted:http://www.transplant-observatory.org/summary/ is that saying that china does fewer organ transplants than the world average?
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Mar 2, 2022 15:57
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fart simpson posted:is that saying that china does fewer organ transplants than the world average? That is what it seems. But then who knows, smarter people than me have doubts about the data. https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6 quote:COTRS data conforms almost precisely to a mathematical formula (which first appeared to be a general quadratic, but with further confirmatory data was discovered to be a simpler one-parameter quadratic) while Central Red Cross data mirrors it, albeit imperfectly. The analysis of both datasets suggests human-directed data manufacture and manipulation. Contradictory, implausible, or anomalous data artefacts were found in five provincial datasets, suggesting that these data may have been manipulated to enforce conformity with central quotas. A number of the distinctive features of China’s current organ procurement and allocation system are discussed, including apparent misclassification of nonvoluntary donors as voluntary.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:53
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That's genuinely the first time I've ever seen someone argue that data is fake because it fits a polynomial curve And wow the Red Cross data mirrors it? How unexpected given they're measuring the same thing
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Mar 2, 2022 20:16
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Red and Black posted:That's genuinely the first time I've ever seen someone argue that data is fake because it fits a polynomial curve Yeah I guess Falun gong doesn't have the best data scientists.
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Mar 2, 2022 20:34
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Horatius Bonar posted:Yeah I guess Falun gong doesn't have the best data scientists.   Yeah I guess not
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Mar 2, 2022 20:46
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I feel like this is why Falun gong is so frustrating, they make a bunch of claims, where some are real and some aren't in a weird gish gallop. Like what are people debating is or isn't true? That organs from executed prisoners is Chinese policy? it is. That Falun Gong members have been sentenced to death? some have. or are people asking if the weird fantastical extremely high numbers that don't even make sense might be real? or the claims of a concentration camp located in a very normal public place that was easily debunked by someone looking and seeing it was physically impossible to be there and also definitely not there. Like Falun gong seems to so frequently throw out like 900 claims that range from absolutely true, to actual news, to clearly made up nonsense, nonstop, and that seems so weird, like just say the real parts. Why weaken the case by also saying super fake things too?
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Mar 2, 2022 21:02
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I heard that China was harvesting the adrenochrome of children in secret underground tunnels.
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Mar 2, 2022 21:40
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I mean, even best case scenario, China was harvesting organs from dead prisoners until 2015. Which leaves us with the knowledge that they were harvesting organs until then. This covers the prime years of Falun gong activity and imprisonment on the mainland. Unless you're sitting on data that every Falun gong member who died in prison made it out with all their organs I'm not sure what needs to be said. http://m.xinhuanet.com/2017-02/15/c_1120467933.htm quote:People are asking a lot of questions about my shirt that says "no longer harvesting organs from prisoners" that are already answered by my shirt.
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Mar 2, 2022 21:55
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Horatius Bonar posted:I mean, even best case scenario, China was harvesting organs from dead prisoners until 2015. Which leaves us with the knowledge that they were harvesting organs until then. This covers the prime years of Falun gong activity and imprisonment on the mainland. Unless you're sitting on data that every Falun gong member who died in prison made it out with all their organs I'm not sure what needs to be said. That is it. That is why Falun Gong is so weirdly frustrating. It seems absolutely clear they are targeted, it seems like they have an actual iron clad actual documented proof real things are happening. Then they weirdly undercut it by making up weirdly easily disprovable things about it. Like they are running a disinfo campaign against their own actually true stuff. Like they will release important news one day then the next release very clearly fake and extremely made up fake facts about the exact same topic. It never feels clear what they get out of doing that. Are they trying to emphasize the importance by inflating things but don't really get how to use hyperbole correctly? Are they mixing real news with more fictionalized stories for religious recruitment? Like what do they get out of saying a real thing then adding a bunch of details that are verifiably untrue about everything. Just stay on the real part!
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Mar 3, 2022 01:29
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Horatius Bonar posted:I mean, even best case scenario, China was harvesting organs from dead prisoners until 2015. Which leaves us with the knowledge that they were harvesting organs until then. This covers the prime years of Falun gong activity and imprisonment on the mainland. Unless you're sitting on data that every Falun gong member who died in prison made it out with all their organs I'm not sure what needs to be said. The original Falun Gong claim was that political prisoners were being killed on demand for their organs: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-carrying-out-millions-of-illegal-organ-transplants-annually-report-finds-a7107091.html I believe this was later found to be false, and consequently dropped as an issue by the western press. Starks fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 01:48
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