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John Snow tells his brothers he's "workshopping an eighth kingdom" but really he's drinking himself to death.
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Jun 17, 2022 17:19
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:John Snow is swallowed by a giant weirwood tree and experiences an entire lifetime of him being raised by rhaegar and lyanna, living a happy self-actualized life, eventually marrying margaery tyrell and having many beautiful children who themselves grow up to be movers and shakers of the realm. Then the weirwood spits him out and he has to be the bastard again. Wouldn't hate this, tbh. Easy way to bring back all the fan favorites in their idealized form, delve into the lore stuff that is most interesting, etc. They could even work something in where Bran/Bloodraven is loving with the vision somehow for his own reasons. Honestly Jon Snow is the character that out of all of them people would likely be interested to see his story get a proper conclusion. A mini-series that acts as a coda could do well, but there's no way HBO doesn't try to make this into the kickoff/hook for the expanded GOT universe. Feel kinda bad for Harington too - the guy obviously took it hard when the show botched the last 2-3 seasons and he is so tightly bound up with it that it will be hard to ever break away from that role. He'd be better off taking a bunch of small roles in different stuff that give him a chance to develop as an actor, but maybe those opportunities just aren't there so back to spending 6 months a year in loving Dubrovnik or Belfast it is.
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Jun 17, 2022 17:29
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Mat Cauthon posted:Feel kinda bad for Harington too - the guy obviously took it hard when the show botched the last 2-3 seasons and he is so tightly bound up with it that it will be hard to ever break away from that role. Yeah, like, this is the guy who compared looking back on the end to looking back on a painful relationship, who ended up in mental health treatment where he all but said "I learned to be proud of my work regardless of the stuff that was beyond my control," who admitted a few months ago he still hadn't watched the final season. So hopefully he's doing this because there's something about it he really wants to do, and not just because he thinks "I can't pass up this opportunity."
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Jun 17, 2022 18:14
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He ain’t a great actor, to be honest
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Jun 17, 2022 18:16
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think it's really funny and probably misguided HBO are trying to make GoT into a Star Wars, given that it's already regarded as a very mixed bag with the terribleness of the last season being a meme, Star Wars had 30 years of nostalgia working in its favor following the extremely positively received original trilogy (cause I guess people back in the 80s were less sensitive to things like 'hey, the third movie is actually poo poo'), people were willing to overlook a lot of cruminess due to nostalgia, with GoT people already figured out it was mostly poo poo as it happens, will people really stick around for "Borgias - Platinum Blonde Fantasy Edition" or whatever it is the new show is meant to be if it isn't genuinely good? and what are the odds any of it is good it's not like GRRM's fake histories were really all the compelling, everyone who read them was just skimming for clues on the main series. I don't know thread. Yeah, even during the post-RoJ drought, or the sequel/postquel valleys, there were usually books, comics, shows, and video games to keep the interest in Star Wars alive. And even during other low points, the original trilogy was extremely good and rewatchable. ASOIAF has an unfinished book series, an unfinished lore series, unfinished side-stories spread out all of the place, unfinished comics, an infamously half-good half-awful show, and pretty much nothing but the most mediocre-to-awful video games. There are like eight dead show pilots and something like three more that are basically going to get axed if House of the Dragon tanks. Mat Cauthon posted:Wouldn't hate this, tbh. Easy way to bring back all the fan favorites in their idealized form, delve into the lore stuff that is most interesting, etc. They could even work something in where Bran/Bloodraven is loving with the vision somehow for his own reasons. Honestly Jon Snow is the character that out of all of them people would likely be interested to see his story get a proper conclusion. A mini-series that acts as a coda could do well, but there's no way HBO doesn't try to make this into the kickoff/hook for the expanded GOT universe. I remember when the show ended, a rumor came out that the final scene was supposed to have Jon walking around past the wall and finding a fresh White Walker symbol on the ground. Even when everyone was ragging on every little bit of the last season, a lot of people thought that it would have been at least something decent to see and could have recontextualized the ending to have something resembling mystery to it. I wouldn't mind seeing Kit working with some decent writing. His acting early on wasn't great because he was a 20-something actor being forced to deliver a 15 year-old boy's lines, so he just looked awkward. That, and they inexplicably took out a lot of Jon's sharper dialogue from the book where he sassed Thorne, Slynt, and some of the other older Night's Watch men. There were pockets of decent writing where he got to act out decent scenes, and I think he was the best physical actor in the series when it came to things like fight scenes. I guess I just want to see things leave on a better note, too. So I mentioned that I was rewatching the series.One of the things I never did during my original watch was that I never watched any of the behind-the-scenes footage. The only knowledge I have is of the memeable quotes like "She just kinda forgot." This time, I'm watching the bts commentary and something really struck me: David Benioff comes off as not very smart. I don't like to engage in that sort of mean, unspecific language, but there's no way around it. Either he's not great at interviews or he tries to hard to create sound bites, but it's impossible to listen to some of the nonsensical things he says and not see it reflected in the degradation of character logic and dialogue. He inserts cliches into everything he talks about and they don't make sense, and I feel like I can now see that so many characters from the show sound dumber over time as they talk more like him. It's at the point where I really see that a good deal of characters talk like him. Weiss, on the other hand comes off as a bit more thoughtful in some of his interviews and has written more projects that I actually enjoy.
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Jun 17, 2022 18:48
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Weiss is a lackey, Benioff is an arrogant garbage person who got so carried away by the success of the show he convinced himself he's a rockstar genius TV showrunner who can do no wrong and that everyone who criticizes any of his choices is just a crybaby nerd who's jelly he's not the creator of biggest show on television, doesn't matter if it was an actor, fans or grrm himself. The first season had a very different dynamic to it and it's telling, HBO actually got Benioff to rewrite, reshoot and edit the poo poo out of it, the more Benioff was left to his own devices the more obviously poo poo everything quickly became, going from 'play with her arse' being a throwaway line during a hammy political monologue we go to 'you need the bad pussy' being the culmination of an arc that spans multiple scenes and eventually goes nowhere, at least pay homage to your own terribleness and have Bronn quip about how it's a shame he never got to sample the Bad Pussy as he's leaving the great council in the finale. No artistry whatsoever.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:17
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Elias_Maluco posted:He ain’t a great actor, to be honest he is very good at portraying clueless idiots though.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:38
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disaster pastor posted:Yeah, like, this is the guy who compared looking back on the end to looking back on a painful relationship, who ended up in mental health treatment where he all but said "I learned to be proud of my work regardless of the stuff that was beyond my control," who admitted a few months ago he still hadn't watched the final season. So hopefully he's doing this because there's something about it he really wants to do, and not just because he thinks "I can't pass up this opportunity." Well he met his wife through the show so it worked out in the aggregate.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:47
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The awful thing is that I really, sincerely thought that Benioff had a lot of potential as a writer before he even touched Game of Thrones. Like, he wrote the script for the Spike Lee-directed film "The 25th Hour" (and he wrote the novel it was based on) and I gotta be honest - I loving loved that film and probably saw it no less than half a dozen times over the course of the Bush Administration. I thought it was totally brilliant, and if I recall correctly it was one of the first films to come out following 9/11 that seemed to take those events into its cultural awareness/perspective as a film. It's probably still one of the best "9/11 films" ever made, probably, not that that's a particularly high bar to clear. Pretty sure this is the scene that everyone remembers when they think about the writing in this flick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmr2Kn3TlEE And even with how awful Game of Thrones ended up being, I still think that's one HELL of a monologue. Obviously the power of the scene isn't just the writing (Ed Norton's delivery and Spike Lee's witty direction do plenty of heavy lifting) but the overall concept and execution of the monologue from a writing perspective is just amazing, both on its own and within the greater context of the film.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:49
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Elias_Maluco posted:He ain’t a great actor, to be honest A lot of the actors in the show aren't great, they more or less rise to the level of the material. So if it is good they can lend enough shine or resonance to it to make it effective but if it is bad then it makes their limitations as performers all the more apparent. Alternatively you have people like Charles Dance, Alfie Allen, Lena Headley, etc that elevated even bad stuff (as much as any of them could). Harington in particular was doing okay, even great at points, up until Jon Snow got shanked at the end of S5. After that they really didn't give him much to flex in, so between that and the internal demoralization that Harington was dealing with the whole performance faltered a bit. Agree that he was definitely one of the main cast members who could do justice to the battle scenes and fights and what not, which went a long way.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:15
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Mat Cauthon posted:A lot of the actors in the show aren't great, they more or less rise to the level of the material. So if it is good they can lend enough shine or resonance to it to make it effective but if it is bad then it makes their limitations as performers all the more apparent. Alternatively you have people like Charles Dance, Alfie Allen, Lena Headley, etc that elevated even bad stuff (as much as any of them could). Agree. And he is not awful either, just not great. And kinda worked for the character, for the most of it
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Jun 17, 2022 20:18
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He was funny in Modern Love.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:29
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I liked Kit in 7 Days In Hell. He does, in fact, play a great dumbass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25RCRGesX0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxl0VbGLmfw Edit: What I'm saying is please put Kit Harrington in more weird comedies
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Jun 17, 2022 21:53
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If they can manage to buy a little effort into the script and not let a couple of trust fund kids go hog wild with it, a good GoT spinoff will launch the property off again. It’s doubtful but it’s a blank fantasy slate you could do anything with.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:18
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Elias_Maluco posted:He ain’t a great actor, to be honest kaworu posted:The awful thing is that I really, sincerely thought that Benioff had a lot of potential as a writer before he even touched Game of Thrones. And let's not forget that movie has a prominent subplot about Phillip Seymour Hoffman playing an English teacher who really wants to gently caress his student, and that plotline ends up going nowhere and feeling really creepy and vestigial.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:42
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The 25th Hour comparison explains so much. Late-stage GoT loves monologues, especially when those monologues are split between two characters who are talking nonsense at one another. Except the person writing them is also directing and running the show so nobody could call them out on being awful.Happy Landfill posted:I liked Kit in 7 Days In Hell. He does, in fact, play a great dumbass I think Kit could be a great comedy actor. He seems self-aware enough. I've heard he's good on stage, too. Maybe explains why his physicality is good as well. I haven't made my mind up about Emilia Clarke. I don't know if I've seen enough that she's been involved in. She also just got absolutely the worst material of any actor in GoT from the word "go" to be fair. Dany diverges from the books starting in Season 1 and diverges harder in Season 2. All of her scenes have her either speaking fictional languages, interacting with CGI, acting off of characters who got their personalities cut out, and lots of other curveballs. She's usually also naked or delivering lines that are just her character externalizing her feelings or what activity she's going to do before she does it. She's a trooper at the very least. Hey, what's everyone's opinion on the single dumbest line in the show? After my rewatch, "Only a King can talk to a Queen" is an underrated one that nobody really brings up. Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 23:03
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mind the walrus posted:Oh yeah this explains a lot. 25th Hour wasn't bad but you're right that Spike Lee's direction and an absolute murder's row of great actors do all the heavy lifting. Even that monologue-- which hit loving hard back in the day do not get me wrong-- was still a heavy on-the-nose "I just spent an afternoon at my local library researching stereotypes about NYC neighborhoods" piece of hack work. Oh poo poo, I had actually totally forgotten about the subplot with Philip Seymour Hoffman's character, but that absolutely presages all the rapey creepiness in GoT. What's even worse, out of the three main characters in the film/book (all of whom were the same approximate age as Benioff when he wrote it) Hoffman's character is the one closest to Benioff and is almost certainly a thinly veiled self-portrait - at the time Benioff had spent most of his life studying/working within the academic world, and in fact was an English teacher at a prep school in Brooklyn for a couple years. I have no doubt he drew heavily from real-life experiences, and not just because I don't really think he's creative enough to come up with much of anything truly original 
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Jun 18, 2022 15:39
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Mat Cauthon posted:https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1537619000858918918?t=bMxSPQiNqDXFYl6BpYjmig&s=19 Honestly, just make a show about exploring the frozen north and finding all kinda of ancient ruins and the barrows that Mande disturbed when searching for the horn and freeing the white walkers in the process, and ice spiders and so forth and it might be neat as long as none of the final season GoT writers are allowed near it. Except this is HBO so it’ll focus on tons of spearwives throwing themselves at Jon because he is the literal savior of the wildings.
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Jun 18, 2022 19:59
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Evil Fluffy posted:Honestly, just make a show about exploring the frozen north and finding all kinda of ancient ruins and the barrows that Mande disturbed when searching for the horn and freeing the white walkers in the process, and ice spiders and so forth and it might be neat as long as none of the final season GoT writers are allowed near it. Jon Snow the fighter, Sam party wizard, a Red Priest, Wilding Ranger, and ex-Night Watch Rogue. Let's full on D&D this.
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Jun 18, 2022 21:43
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Deptfordx posted:Jon Snow the fighter, Sam party wizard, a Red Priest, Wilding Ranger, and ex-Night Watch Rogue. Let's full on D&D this. Is the Red Priest the healer? I think we need a faceless in that party too
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Jun 18, 2022 21:46
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okay, okay, how about, the party meets a white walker that somehow survived, and he's a good guy, and his name is drizzt do'urden
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Jun 18, 2022 22:17
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Elias_Maluco posted:Is the Red Priest the healer? I think we need a faceless in that party too drat, how did I miss a faceless for Rogue.
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Jun 18, 2022 22:47
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kaworu posted:Oh poo poo, I had actually totally forgotten about the subplot with Philip Seymour Hoffman's character, but that absolutely presages all the rapey creepiness in GoT.  Jazerus posted:okay, okay, how about, the party meets a white walker that somehow survived, and he's a good guy, and his name is drizzt do'urden
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Jun 19, 2022 00:02
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It would be kind of nice to just have a fantasy show that's about a guy or group going on adventures. The best parts of the Witcher series were when Geralt just went on adventures and palled around with people.
Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jun 19, 2022 |
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Jun 19, 2022 00:44
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Deptfordx posted:drat, how did I miss a faceless for Rogue. Uh it’s a prestige class.
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Jun 19, 2022 01:19
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:It would be kind of nice to just have a fantasy show that's about a guy or group going on adventures. The best parts of the Witcher series were when Geralt just went on adventures and palled around with people. Yeah! Slaying dragons and solving some local lord's emotional problems is fun enough for a few seasons, you don't always need to escalate to world changing plots immediately. Even the fans like it, as evidenced by all the fanworks that are "slice of life" type stuff. Though GoT already started off strong with continent spanning politics and two potential end of the world threats (each eliminated by a Stark sibling with a knife).
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Jun 19, 2022 07:49
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So, part of my rewatch is that I had the idea in my head that I wanted to start a long form review series to try to examine the show from a writing standpoint, instead of just going "D&D are bad writers and shortsighted starfuckers" like every other analysis I've heard. I had ideas for taking excerpts from books on writing and quotes from writers to break down what went wrong without having to resort to namecalling. To do this, I realize I'd have to see how the show was made, so I finally started watching BtS material, cast/crew interviews, and listening to DVD commentary and I may just end up axing my idea for a review series because it really does just seem like Dave and Dan (with my suspicions leaning mainly towards Dave) are bad writers and shortsighted starfuckers. Once my rewatch got to Season 4, I started seeing more and more interviews with the cast and crew where they are just bewildered at the direction of the show while carefully trying to point the blame at D&D. At different points, cast members are genuinely lost as to what their characters are supposed to be thinking or what their motivations or goals are because D&D actively start writing the show as an avenue for character reaction shots. I'm not even reaching with this- both of them admit to doing so, and I think if you made a compilation of every time after Season 3 the show zooms in on an actor showing intense emotion while the music swells, you may have at least a half hour video. The crew also tend to have thinly-veiled complaints. Miguel Sapochnik, who was one of the many replacement directors who started showing up in Season 4 and is now the showrunner/EP for HotD, talked about how The Battle of the Bastards was supposed to be way different. Basically, D&D had way more planned and scripted for the battle and that they had something like a dozen days scheduled to shoot the battle scene. Sapochnik said that to include everything they wanted, he would need 40-ish days of continuous shooting. D&D's response sounds like the type of middle-manager bullshit response of: "you're a rockstar, you can make it happen!" Long story short, huge chunks of the story got cut with the rest re-written, which probably explains the Deus-ex-Sansa at the end. There are also theories that the Season 5 Dorne storyline was such a mess because they just sort of barged into a world heritage site without realizing that there may be restrictions on what they could do to use it as a film set.
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Jun 20, 2022 01:23
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The actors started getting a ton of acting awards so they starting rewriting storylines with that in mind. I know they said parts of Robb's story were rewritten, like, they keep going on about of good an actor's facial expressions are, as though that's the only thing that goes in to acting. It's like once they started writing characters with the intention of awards baiting the character writing got worse.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:14
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Thinking about it.. what are the actors of Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Bronn etc even doing right now? If they did a straight sequel with actual good showrunners I think I'd like it a lot. But just Jon? lmao no
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Jun 20, 2022 02:25
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Hard to tell what some peoples' careers are like since GoT ended the year before covid hit. Jerome did John Wick 3 and Kit did The Eternals so bleh. Emilia and Sophie Turner have actually been in a lot of stuff. Also, English actors tend not to hold out for the big AAA-list parts like a lot of American actors do when they get big.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:47
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Sophie Turner married a Jonas brother so she could not work for a long time if she feels like it
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Jun 20, 2022 02:55
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This is always the risk in getting your start in a project that takes up a decade of your life. The money is loving sweet by the end but after it’s over you’re kind of trapped in that role.
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Jun 20, 2022 03:01
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Bronn's actor is working in British TV which is basically where most British Actors stay because it pays well and they aren't away from home.
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Jun 20, 2022 03:04
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Barreft posted:Thinking about it.. what are the actors of Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Bronn etc even doing right now? Most of them went back to being jobbing actors but with more financial security (at least for the long term recurring cast).The guy who played Davos has been in a ton of direct to video, TV movie, etc type stuff for example.
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Jun 20, 2022 03:16
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algebra testes posted:Bronn's actor is working in British TV which is basically where most British Actors stay because it pays well and they aren't away from home. Most of the older actors already had careers. I mean the younger ones.
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Jun 20, 2022 03:55
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Mat Cauthon posted:Most of them went back to being jobbing actors but with more financial security (at least for the long term recurring cast).The guy who played Davos has been in a ton of direct to video, TV movie, etc type stuff for example. Yeah, Liam Cunningham strikes me as one of those actors who has realized he just really loves to act and cares more about what he can do in a role than about the role's prestige or whatever.
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Jun 20, 2022 13:45
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Arya is weird cause the actress was doing pretty well before Braavos. But as soon as she got there, she became terrible. The writing got very bad too
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Jun 20, 2022 13:54
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I think Arya, and similarly Bran and Sansa, just reached a point where the writers didn't really know what to do with them or where their plots were going (and GRRM was hanging them out to dry). So they probably had a lot of "look mysterious and say / do something inexplicable" type instructions. Can't really blame the actors for not making it work.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:04
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When Maisie was a child actress she stole the show cause you know, that's what child actors do, as her character was no longer a feisty little girl it quickly became apparent that Maisie is not so much a good actor as much as she was a good match for child Arya, when she was a child. Everyone loved the little Mormont girl in the latter seasons and she's also probably a more talented actress, but it's still this thing where everyone loves little girls who kick rear end.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:06
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I mean Maisie isn't a generational talent (who is?) but let's not hang her that hard out to dry when the material already did that. It's hard enough to follow up Arya's plot as-is, let alone with all the nonsense the showrunners gave her.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:45
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