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zoux posted:So was old Valryia just dudes riding dragons all over the place? Taking a dragon two blocks to pick up a sandwich instead of walking? Because the Targaryens, who apparently weren't even that big time, have a fuckload of dragons. Take it with a grain of salt but history basically says: Valryia was a huge empire with many cities that later became the Free Cities you always hear being mentioned, and with trading posts that extended all the way to Dragonstone. The actual capitol, the "Freehold of Valryia", was a massive metropolis that was supposedly built over 14 active volcanoes and had a huge population. A part of the population were "Dragonlords" which were the families that exercised control of dragons. These families apparently competed with each other constantly, but unlike normal families that settle feuds with marriages, the Dragonlords never married outside the family because they need to keep their family magic pure. Dragons weren't the only wild thing about Valryia, though. Supposedly all kinds of magic was practiced using the power of the volcanoes (*cough* technology powered by geothermal energy), and some of this magic may have been what triggered the Doom and left the area cursed (radioactive) for the last couple of centuries. stephenthinkpad posted:If you subscribe to the idea that only Targs can bind to dragons and they are some kind of magical beings in this fantasy world, then you don't have to feel sorry about teenager targs getting swallowed by dragons. They are not normal teenagers anyway. I mean, if you want to go down a fun rabbit hole. The Starks might not be entirely human either.
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Oct 27, 2022 20:57
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Pentos used to be part of the Valyrian empire?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:13
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zoux posted:Pentos used to be part of the Valyrian empire? quote:Pentos was founded by merchants, traders, seafarers, and farmers from the Valyrian Freehold as a trading outpost. Many were smallfolk who bred with local Andals, so the Pentoshi are less protective of Valyrian blood than other Free Cities.[3] There are some who claim Pentos existed before the colonization and that the original inhabitants decided to pay homage to the Freehold, citing Gessio Haratis's Before the Dragons as their source.[14] The only Free City that was not Valyrian was Braavos, which was a hidden city founded by escaped slaves hiding from Valyria.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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LOL at the idea that you're going to walk to pick up a sandwich when you can fly there on a dragon.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:43
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I get on my dragon to fly down the driveway to pick up my mail. No I don't know why we call it the driveway.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:44
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Pattonesque posted:Darkstar cut a kid's face up though, so he's one up on Aemond there Wouldn't turning a kid into salsa beat that though?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:46
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Take it with a grain of salt but history basically says: The guy in Braavos who runs the Faceless Men tells Arya of their origins. They were slaves in Valyria who started feeding other slaves to the volcanos to give them the release they prayed for. Arya says they should have thrown the masters in the volcanos and they guy says something like "Oh yeah, we did that eventually, but it's best if we don't talk too much about that." So one of the theories is that the Targs hired a Faceless Man to kill one of the mages keeping one of the volcanos at bay, and that caused a chain reaction in all the volcanos that was the Doom. Valyria apparently knew of the Lannisters' wealth but never traded with them because there was a prophecy that Lannister gold would doom Valyria, so part of the theory is that the Targs borrowed Lannister money to hire the assassin because Faceless Men cost as much as armies.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:56
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Typo posted:man I love Rhys Ifans as Otto Hightower, loved that the show lifted the lines about Aegon holding every symbol of legitimacy from F&B even tho it was just the maester's commentaries and not spoken by any character It was kind of a "no poo poo" speech since they were all sitting on a table in the Red Keep and the kid didn't have permission, he just grabbed all the loot (figuratively, since it was Otto who physically grabbed it) and declared bankruptcy like a blonde Michael Scott. Succession doesn't work like calling shotgun for a car ride, which is what Otto reduced it to.
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Oct 27, 2022 22:03
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It's said more than once that if Ned Stark had sat on the throne instead of Robert he'd've been king. Jaime Lannister was lounging on the throne when Ned walked into the room, the mad king dead at his feet, and Ned's first reaction was that Jaime was claiming kingship. The accoutrements matter, Otto is correct about that.
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Oct 27, 2022 22:07
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WTF, Valyria sound like GURM is hiding a scifi twist.
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Oct 27, 2022 22:09
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zoux posted:I get on my dragon to fly down the driveway to pick up my mail. No I don't know why we call it the driveway. You can drive animals though
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Oct 27, 2022 22:16
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stephenthinkpad posted:WTF, Valyria sound like GURM is hiding a scifi twist. I think it’s more fun if he just leaves these somewhat obvious hints about his world being the remains of a high-tech civilization like A Canticle for Leibowitz, but then never engages them or makes them relevant to the story. Asshai also pretty obviously sounds like a modern city that was hit by atomic bombs. There are also hints at some kind of Lovecraft mythos with the oily black thrones that predate humanity and have some connection to things living deep underwater, but it’s probably just a wink.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:11
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theflyingexecutive posted:You can drive animals though But we park on a the flyway... I AM GRANDO posted:I think it’s more fun if he just leaves these somewhat obvious hints about his world being the remains of a high-tech civilization like A Canticle for Leibowitz, but then never engages them or makes them relevant to the story. Asshai also pretty obviously sounds like a modern city that was hit by atomic bombs. Is this from the main series? I don't remember any of that - which doesn't mean it isn't in there I'm not the worlds closest reader.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:13
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Infinite Karma posted:It was kind of a "no poo poo" speech since they were all sitting on a table in the Red Keep and the kid didn't have permission, he just grabbed all the loot (figuratively, since it was Otto who physically grabbed it) and declared bankruptcy like a blonde Michael Scott. Succession doesn't work like calling shotgun for a car ride, which is what Otto reduced it to. Prior to his shotgun coronation, the population was kind of ambivalent about which silver-haired weirdo ruled them. The night market/brothel scene earlier in the season showed that misogyny isn't the exclusive province of the nobility, and now that a Septon has publicly anointed Aegon, most people would probably be fine with it. I'm not sure how important the sword/crown are, but validation by the religions authorities is probably a Big Deal. It is wild they didn't have any dragons present though, Vhagar being on someone's "side" is probably worth an ocean of holy oil.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:24
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zoux posted:So was old Valryia just dudes riding dragons all over the place? Taking a dragon two blocks to pick up a sandwich instead of walking? Because the Targaryens, who apparently weren't even that big time, have a fuckload of dragons. This is my own conjecture, but I assume old Valyria and its Freehold are analogous to classical Greece and/or the Roman Republic. The architecture of traditional Valyrian structures, like the Dragon Pit, are a big hint. If so, the the Targs, who were Freehold gentry, would have been part of the equivalent aristocratic equestrian class. Rural landed lords that produce the knights, basically. Not impressive as kings and oligarchs, but with enough resources to raise, train, and equip war horses and their armored riders. That is incredibly resource intensive in the real world. Now imagine the same scenario but it’s dragons instead of horses. So “lesser house” is a relative term. If Old Valyria was anything like our historical Athens or Rome, then it would have been the cultural, financial, and political center of their world. All the actual oligarchs and cultural leaders would have been vaporized when the Doom happened. So, it does make since that the “lesser houses” out in the Freehold are the survivors. Now for gold fish bowl conjecture: maybe population density and resource allocation are what control dragon size. There’s only so much protein to go around. In my theory, you’d have all the freehold lords with their stables of dragons. The actual limit on territory a lord has limited their maximum dragon size because they could only raise so much protein so fast. So, the more power the lord, the more land you have, the more you can feed your personal WMD. All the super loving big dragons would have been owned by the oldest houses with ‘squadrons’ of smaller dragons from their vassals lords when needed.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:42
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zoux posted:But we park on a the flyway... Yeah the Greyjoy chapters mention the Cthulhu poo poo several times throughout the series.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:54
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I’d love for a show based in GoT’s world where it’s just archipelagoic kingdoms and their version of dragons is giant sea monsters.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:56
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stephenthinkpad posted:WTF, Valyria sound like GURM is hiding a scifi twist. Richard K. Morgan’s “The Steel Remains” is very much this. I don’t want to spoil anything, but forewarned it is grimdark as gently caress if that matters to you.
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Oct 28, 2022 00:01
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Yeah it's been stated that the Doom is supposed to be their version of Atlantis mixed with the fall of Rome. On the one hand a dash of mysticism and advanced knowledge, on the other a very real empire whose dissolution was both total and also never really happened. Just like the Roman Empire didn't just blip out of existence, vast swaths of Valyria and it's empire just....kept on trucking. In reality most of what they knew in did is probably still known and done, but the mythology of lost Valyria is more impactful than the reality. The core died, but the outer limbs just....did their own thing. The "Not quite mainland Europe" of Essos has it's location as smack dab in "Not Italy", to really drive it home.
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Oct 28, 2022 00:06
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Mulva posted:Yeah it's been stated that the Doom is supposed to be their version of Atlantis mixed with the fall of Rome. On the one hand a dash of mysticism and advanced knowledge, on the other a very real empire whose dissolution was both total and also never really happened. Just like the Roman Empire didn't just blip out of existence, vast swaths of Valyria and it's empire just....kept on trucking. In reality most of what they knew in did is probably still known and done, but the mythology of lost Valyria is more impactful than the reality. The core died, but the outer limbs just....did their own thing. The "Not quite mainland Europe" of Essos has it's location as smack dab in "Not Italy", to really drive it home. Hopefully the Arya as Magellan series reaches the unknown shores of Valyrian refuge “Not Jersey”. mweber fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 00:18
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Baronash posted:I think you're taking these lines far too literally. "When dragons flew to war, everything burned" is Rhaenyra's line from this episode, but it's meant to be taken just as much as a metaphor as a literal recounting of the past. Dragons caused great destruction when Aegon the Conqueror arrived, but they did it at the behest of the Targaryens that rode them. It's just a reframing of the concept of war being a destructive force, and Rhaenyra is looking for opportunities to avoid that. Is that what she said? I thought it was something about dragons fighting each other. I still don't know if I am reading to much into it when both riders explicitly stated that they had lost control of their dragons and there was a whole, season-long plot line about Dany losing control of her's... Those horses never bolt with their riders and eat sheep/children for months at a time. 
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Oct 28, 2022 00:21
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Mulva posted:Yeah it's been stated that the Doom is supposed to be their version of Atlantis mixed with the fall of Rome. On the one hand a dash of mysticism and advanced knowledge, on the other a very real empire whose dissolution was both total and also never really happened. Just like the Roman Empire didn't just blip out of existence, vast swaths of Valyria and it's empire just....kept on trucking. In reality most of what they knew in did is probably still known and done, but the mythology of lost Valyria is more impactful than the reality. The core died, but the outer limbs just....did their own thing. The "Not quite mainland Europe" of Essos has it's location as smack dab in "Not Italy", to really drive it home. We’re obviously both putting more thought into the campaign world than the Dungeon Master, did. I’m listening to a ton of lectures and books on the Bronze Age Mediterranean and Mesopotamia, so my interpretation is colored by that. In my head, the Doom of Valyria and its aftermath are modeled on the Bronze Age Collapse and not the Fall of the Roman Empire. The Bronze Collapse is the iconic “something so bad happened that we forgot how to read for 300 years and that’s why everything is now a legend that happened thousands of years ago”.
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Oct 28, 2022 00:30
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Well the Bronze age collapse was supposed to have caused by a series of climate change events. So if the Others are analog of climate change in the Asoiaf world, then the Others should also be the main cause of the collapse of Valyria.
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Oct 28, 2022 03:26
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yeah the Greyjoy chapters mention the Cthulhu poo poo several times throughout the series. Deep Ones vs dragons? I’m down
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Oct 28, 2022 03:43
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yeah the Greyjoy chapters mention the Cthulhu poo poo several times throughout the series. The show really did Euron dirty. He's loving horrifying in the books.
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Oct 28, 2022 03:48
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I AM GRANDO posted:I think it’s more fun if he just leaves these somewhat obvious hints about his world being the remains of a high-tech civilization like A Canticle for Leibowitz, but then never engages them or makes them relevant to the story. Asshai also pretty obviously sounds like a modern city that was hit by atomic bombs. I don't have too strong an argument, but if you put together the little snippets we get about Asshai and then you imagine what a post nuclear-war-but-worse Korean peninsula would like... I'm only saying what I'm saying but it paints a picture, you know?
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Oct 28, 2022 04:17
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I've just finished the final episode. I was going to quit after the first and I'm now glad that I didn't. I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said, but that final scene is just so perfect. The subtle body language in what is basically silhouette says so much. The up-swell in the music, and the turn toward camera. Wonderful. edit: are spoilers still required?
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Oct 28, 2022 04:29
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stephenthinkpad posted:Well the Bronze age collapse was supposed to have caused by a series of climate change events. So if the Others are analog of climate change in the Asoiaf world, then the Others should also be the main cause of the collapse of Valyria. Wait a minute! The Sea Peoples were also said to be part of the collapse. You don't think... The Others, they couldn't be...real...right?
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Oct 28, 2022 04:50
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deoju posted:The show really did Euron dirty. He's loving horrifying in the books. I think the actor himself was disappointed how he was used in the show.
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Oct 28, 2022 04:53
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bobjr posted:I think the actor himself was disappointed how he was used in the show. I kind of always expected him to start singing Linkin Park in a pirate voice.
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Oct 28, 2022 04:56
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I am very sorry for starting a “what caused the Bronze Age Collapse and who the gently caress were the Sea Peoples, anyway?” discussion. The Collapse was brought on by a bunch of disasters in a short period of time and the established empires were past their zenith and become ponderous. So, yes, there was climate change at the time. So, yes, there was a series of earthquakes in mainland Greece. I think that the Sea Peoples were disenfranchised commoners who banded together in reaction to the massive wealth disparity inherent in oligarchies. The Bronze Age kingdoms were rich as gently caress, but that wealth was held completely by the ruling oligarchs and kings. Internal trade was basically elaborate gifts sent between kingdoms and it was all made by slave and serf labor. So, even if the first push of the Sea Peoples may have been the Sardinians, but, they gained local fighters from every port and city they raided. It was a massive campaign, yes, but it was also an uprising against the ruling elite. The climate and earthquakes had already softened them up.What is my proof? Not a lot, but I will point out that Greece fell into a 3 century dark age because everybody who knew how to read got murdered. Back then, only the elite could read.
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Oct 28, 2022 05:15
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Another factor is no one knew about crop rotation so over time yields diminished in almost every society except for Egypt, who got annual floods to keep them going. Also some of the Sea Peoples may have been from the collapse of whatever culture built Stonehenge and inhabited the Atlantic coast and Britain during the Bronze Age! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Britain#Disruption_of_cultural_patterns In any event, I am pretty sure GRRM has explicitly stated it is an Atlantis/Fall or Rome analogy. I don't think the evidence and theories behind the Bronze Age Collapse were widespread in the early 90s but everyone sure had a copy of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire on their bookshelf.
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Oct 28, 2022 05:45
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:In any event, I am pretty sure GRRM has explicitly stated it is an Atlantis/Fall or Rome analogy. I don't think the evidence and theories behind the Bronze Age Collapse were widespread in the early 90s but everyone sure had a copy of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire on their bookshelf.
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Oct 28, 2022 06:07
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Marsupial Ape posted:Richard K. Morgan’s “The Steel Remains” is very much this. I don’t want to spoil anything, but forewarned it is grimdark as gently caress if that matters to you. And much better written.
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Oct 28, 2022 09:01
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A Buttery Pastry posted:These two theories can be unified by the Bronze Age Collapse of the Minoan civilization. I don’t want to “well actually you”, but the Minoans’ sea empire got conquered by the main land Mycenaeans like years before the Bronze Age Collapse. The Minoans were indeed weakened by a series of earth quakes and a volcanic island to their north exploding and half the island got hit by tsunami. Point being, the Minoan civilization was really loving old. They ruled the Aegean from 2000 BC to about 1550 BC, were the foundation for a lot of later Greek culture, and we don’t even know what they called themselves. The classic Greeks of 500 BC didn’t either and wondered about Mycenaean and Minoan ruins and artifacts in the same manner that we marvel and the ruins of their civilization, now. That blows my mind. The lesson? GRRM makes his walls too tall, his continents too long, and his time way too goddam deep.
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Oct 28, 2022 09:45
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Torquemada posted:And much better written. The quality and quantity of third person perspective narration of graphic gay sex is better, at least.
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Oct 28, 2022 09:52
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MLSM posted:Deep Ones vs dragons? I’m down
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Oct 28, 2022 10:34
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Marsupial Ape posted:The quality and quantity of third person perspective narration of graphic gay sex is better, at least. It’s a nice litmus test for prejudice too! I’m going to have to reread those again, so good.
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Oct 28, 2022 11:11
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show mid
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Oct 28, 2022 12:23
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I still don't know if I am reading to much into it when both riders explicitly stated that they had lost control of their dragons and there was a whole, season-long plot line about Dany losing control of her's... They lost control of their dragons because they are sentient fighter jets and Aemond tried to use his for schoolyard bullying. I don't know what to tell you, we've had tons of onscreen and implied moments of dragons obeying their riders, so they are clearly not uncontrollable. If you're moving goalposts to "sometimes they don't do exactly what the riders want," then... duh?
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Oct 28, 2022 13:45
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