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Ignatius M. Meen posted:That's right, you should see them activating the ninja if it requires declaring that. But it's still driving me a bit nuts about this only proving monathin didn't use any kill-related actions those nights, or that his ninja is naturally applied and the NK is considered different from a standard night action, and that's making it hard to feel like monathin is cleared the way I'd really like to see it. Scum having both a ninja and a jugg is a big oof, though But it would fit with having two town roleblockers and an action cop or whatever HCT is claiming I guess I'll consider that possibility
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Nov 17, 2022 17:09
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Monathin posted:I will at least cop that a bulletproof potato goon makes as much sense as a bulletproof potato townie. If you don't believe the night action results, Meen, all I can do is point to my record of attempting to solve the game. Have I been good at it? No. Not really even a little. But I feel like I've been pretty earnest in a way that shows that I'm not one of the two scum left. I think one of the other problems is I know the other folks at least a little insofar as town behavior but I don't know you. I've been fooled before by earnestly pushing scum, and I was cooling on Hal until that got pressed so even that kinda knowledge isn't the safest. I don't know if you remember or have met Yami but he is very happy to act as confidently wrong town as scum and fearsome for it. You are, for better or worse, a giant as gently caress question mark and being associated with lunches that were not implausible but felt kinda bad all the same for what turned out to be good reason isn't helping that.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:13
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FWIW, monathin, if you're just an Inverse Cop naturally I will definitely remember that and not sus you in future games over it (though I WILL remind you of how this game turned out and I'd like to think I'd push you to consider other options if I think you're wrong).
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Nov 17, 2022 17:20
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If I'm wrong on Iggy, I'm wrong. But I'm not in a space where I have an easy time thinking of Iggy as being scum. If I'm wrong on b, I'm wrong. But, again, assuming that the whole "masonize the dead" thing is the truth, b's role just.... doesn't feel like a scum role. Also b is putting in active effort that I'm not used to seeing from scum b. If I'm wrong on HCT.... I could believe it. I don't feel like Crab is being quite as evasive as I've seen before when he was scum, but Crab is also really good scum so.... that's a hard read. Everyone keeps telling me I should be suspicious of Windward, up to and including Windward. I haven't been, and it doesn't feel like anyone else is at the moment either? But here at the last day, with the list of suspects dwindling, I'm wondering if that should change? Monathin.... like Iggy said, Monathin has been a question mark since D1. And out of everyone I feel like I have the least quibbles about voting for Monathin today. If we lose based on that? I'm really not certain how much better we could have done. No matter who wins or loses this game, my hat is off to remaining scum. gg;wp
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Nov 17, 2022 17:26
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lmao, entirely fair. I think the roleblock plan is a good one. I can say with 100% certainty if we do hit scum that they can't kill me - my bulletproof is currently charged and without a jugg they have no way of forcing the issue. I don't know that the BP has been spent, however, so I can't confirm if I've been hit or not, but scum wouldn't want to waste a night hitting my BP at this stage regardless. That does bring up who to lunch, though. The only people really needed for that plan are myself and MSSR: It leaves HCT, binus, and windward in the open. There's two scum left and I don't think MSSR or you are scum, and I obviously know I'm town, so I feel like our odds there are good. The question becomes: who to lunch? Of the options I think windward is the safest bet - they're claiming they've become a full VT with Lotus' death, and I still don't trust that there wasn't some function to the empower. And, in the off chance that HCT is in fact telling the truth about their role, they get another night to search. Though I think the targets presented should be declared in thread and agree that any deviation in the plan at this stage means a lunch.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:28
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:FWIW, monathin, if you're just an Inverse Cop naturally I will definitely remember that and not sus you in future games over it (though I WILL remind you of how this game turned out and I'd like to think I'd push you to consider other options if I think you're wrong). What's an inverse cop?
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Nov 17, 2022 17:29
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WindwardAway posted:What's an inverse cop? aka insane cop - iggy is saying he'll trust my reads to be the exact opposite of what they've been in this game in the future. fwiw I do feel usually confident about hitting scum but this game has been pretty hard to find scum in. As MSSR said: no matter who wins scum played a good game.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:30
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Monathin posted:aka insane cop - iggy is saying he'll trust my reads to be the exact opposite of what they've been in this game in the future. Ah ok, now I get what he means lol
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Nov 17, 2022 17:40
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WindwardAway posted:Ah ok, now I get what he means lol Yeah the terminology is a little fucky with sanities - I think Inverse is a lot clearer than Insane because otherwise you have to distinguish that potentially from Random (i.e. a coin is flipped to figure out what your cop result is, vs. Naive always getting Town or Cynical/Paranoid always getting Scum), but that's just my personal quibble zone.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:55
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Monathin posted:That does bring up who to lunch, though. The more I think about this and the more people's reads keep moving around, the more I'm starting to feel like we really should just play it safe and no-lunch. It's already MYLO, we can't afford a single mislunch and need to hit scum two days in a row, or we just lose. That's not going to change if we no-lunch today; tomorrow will just be LYLO instead. But it'll give us information we don't have today. And we're guaranteed to have another 48 hours to think about this. Anyway, we're not in any rush. We still have another 24 hours before deadline to decide what to do here.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:55
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I gotta be honest, I don't think another 48 hours to think about things is going to help me out here. Like, I'm not opposed, I just... don't think it will be of any help to me personally at all.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:57
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You can use your roleblock tonight though, right? It's back online?
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Nov 17, 2022 17:58
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Yeah, we're ready to mourn all up in this piece.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:59
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At the very least I think we should try to deploy that, then. There aren't that many people left who could do the nightkill, even with two scum alive. If you manage to block the killer then nobody dies and we get to lunch confirmed scum tomorrow. If you don't, well, hopefully I can check two of the other candidates and report back. Of course there's a chance this won't yield any useful information especially if one of us dies, but if I had to choose between "guess right or game over" vs. "guess right or gain very little information but get a second chance either way", I'm going to lean towards the latter every time.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:03
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:The more I think about this and the more people's reads keep moving around, the more I'm starting to feel like we really should just play it safe and no-lunch. It's already MYLO, we can't afford a single mislunch and need to hit scum two days in a row, or we just lose. That's not going to change if we no-lunch today; tomorrow will just be LYLO instead. But it'll give us information we don't have today. And we're guaranteed to have another 48 hours to think about this. Normally I'd be all for a no lunch in MyLo, I'm just not entirely convinced it's going to help. From what I understand, it's mostly useful if you can clear someone with your ability. If you're scum, you won't clear anyone with your ability except your partner, if you haven't already. And if you're town, that likely means you're just gonna die tonight.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:04
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My Second Re-Reg posted:Yeah, we're ready to mourn all up in this piece. Well that sounds depressing lmao
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Nov 17, 2022 18:04
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WindwardAway posted:Normally I'd be all for a no lunch in MyLo, I'm just not entirely convinced it's going to help. From what I understand, it's mostly useful if you can clear someone with your ability. If you're scum, you won't clear anyone with your ability except your partner, if you haven't already. And if you're town, that likely means you're just gonna die tonight. If I die, then at least MSRR doesn't die, and you can clear one person as not the killer besides me. That's something we don't have today. Right now it's all or nothing and I don't like just leaving a safe option on the table when it doesn't cost us anything to do it.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:05
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While we're on the topic:Monathin posted:Though I think the targets presented should be declared in thread and agree that any deviation in the plan at this stage means a lunch. I understand the intent here, but doesn't publicly declaring who I'm gonna roleblock mean that scum team will just have the person *not* getting blocked perform the kill?
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Nov 17, 2022 18:10
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My Second Re-Reg posted:I understand the intent here, but doesn't publicly declaring who I'm gonna roleblock mean that scum team will just have the person *not* getting blocked perform the kill? Yeah, I agree with that, unfortunately. I don't mind declaring my targets, but declaring the roleblock is just going to result in exactly that. But I think as long as our targets don't overlap we should have some new information, right?
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Nov 17, 2022 18:14
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Or we could just vote to kill the person who made that suggestion? 'cause, I mean, if my dumb rear end saw that as a flaw... shouldn't Monathin?
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Nov 17, 2022 18:18
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My Second Re-Reg posted:Or we could just vote to kill the person who made that suggestion? 'cause, I mean, if my dumb rear end saw that as a flaw... shouldn't Monathin? Sorry, I think I've forgotten what your current reads are. I can go back and look but seeing as how you're here, can you sum them up? You're thinking Monathin now?
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Nov 17, 2022 18:20
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My Second Re-Reg posted:If I'm wrong on Iggy, I'm wrong. But I'm not in a space where I have an easy time thinking of Iggy as being scum.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:22
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I'm not opposed to no-lunch, especially since yeah, MSRR should have his roleblock available to hopefully catch someone but... I've seen a lot of no-lunches end up with everyone remaining feeling no better about their chances afterwards, and I worry this is just going to leave HCT dead. Like, if I'm wrong and HCT isn't dead (and doesn't catch anyone), then that'll be that, but he'd otherwise be the obvious choice for the kill (if for no other reason than he has by far the best chance of catching scum red-handed if they swerved onto me or MSRR). As for who to go after, I'm thinking I'd prefer monathin first, but if not that then... well, kinda going back and forth on binus vs Wind TBH. binus - I literally can't fathom how a scum medium works. That hasn't got a lick of plausible utility for the scumteam outside purely loving with townie heads. It just does not add up in the slightest. The obvious inference is that binus is lying about that, but we have MSRR backing him up on people not going to obs immediately (which isn't in play tonight, and MSRR forgot to check on it which I don't particularly like but which is a puff of smoke so small I can't even smell it to confirm it's not a trick of the light). The potential is there for binus and MSRR to be paired but all the rest of the circumstantial evidence just piles on top of that and I can't see it. I could see binus and monathin though, for the reasons I've already stated, and my instincts say there's no small appeal in that teaming, even though the rest of me just can't loving get over scum medium on its face being even more nonsensical than scum doctor, or scum cop when there's no SK, and not seeing why MSRR would lie about that if not teamed with binus. Windward - I don't like that finding the other player added up to less than nothing for both Lotus and Windward. There's just about no reason for this to happen. There should have at minimum been a masonry, even if unconfirmed. There should have been something. But instead Wind's just lost her jail, and now claims she can't do her lightning rod either. I don't like that she only claimed the lightning rod late, either, she could have been an ersatz bodyguard with that. But as far as thread behavior goes? She's been trying to figure out the puzzles. She decided from the spat I had D2 with Hal one of us was scum which is in contrast to monathin calling both of us town. I'm just not having gutreads that pan out here. In sum, I got smoke from binus from reading alone, but the mech doesn't make a lick of sense; I got smoke from Wind from mech alone, but the reads aren't lining up. If it were the end of the day right this second and they were split I'd probably flip a coin to cast the hammer.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:45
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Yeah, I agree with that, unfortunately. I don't mind declaring my targets, but declaring the roleblock is just going to result in exactly that. But I think as long as our targets don't overlap we should have some new information, right? Even then, that kinda has the same effect, right? Scum knows I wouldn't be roleblocking myself, and likely neither b or Iggy - roleblocking you would be anathema to the whole point of the thing, so if you declare your targets sheer process of elimination means scum has a fairly good idea of who I'm trying to block at a minimum, if not able to just deduce my target out-right.
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Nov 17, 2022 18:58
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My Second Re-Reg posted:Even then, that kinda has the same effect, right? Scum knows I wouldn't be roleblocking myself, and likely neither b or Iggy - roleblocking you would be anathema to the whole point of the thing, so if you declare your targets sheer process of elimination means scum has a fairly good idea of who I'm trying to block at a minimum, if not able to just deduce my target out-right. You could always flip a coin if you think you have less than 50% chance of guessing who is going to perform the kill. I'm with you in that I'd rather catch scum today though.
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Nov 17, 2022 19:08
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I mean, obviously actually catching scum today would be better. It's just that the downside of getting it wrong is game-ending, whereas the downside of getting the roleblock wrong isn't. It just means we get slightly less information than otherwise, and then we're back at where we are right now at worst. At best we catch scum in a way that can't backfire and lose the game for us. Even a coin flip between whoever your top two scum reads are, MSRR, is a better deal than doing nothing. Are you both saying Monathin now? I'm sorry I keep asking for summaries but my head's not really in the game right now either, I'm sorry to say. I mean I get the basics. The push on Cloaca was bad, I think this weird entanglement between binus and Monathin has... something going on in it, but it just feels more like binus latching onto an incorrect town read. But lord knows I've been wrong about binus before, and Monathin... well I have no experience with him. Just heads up, I might not stick around a whole lot tonight, but we do still have time to come to a conclusion.
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Nov 17, 2022 19:16
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I will say this may be one of the funniest endgames I've been around for, because it doesn't even seem like scum knows how to push a candidate for death today; everybody's just like "welp, guess it's gotta be somebody  "
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Nov 17, 2022 21:10
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My Second Re-Reg posted:While we're on the topic: Nah, you're right, I had just crawled out of bed when I made that post. Hyper Crab Tank posted:I mean, obviously actually catching scum today would be better. It's just that the downside of getting it wrong is game-ending, whereas the downside of getting the roleblock wrong isn't. It just means we get slightly less information than otherwise, and then we're back at where we are right now at worst. At best we catch scum in a way that can't backfire and lose the game for us. Even a coin flip between whoever your top two scum reads are, MSRR, is a better deal than doing nothing. HCT, you've gotten a "nothing" read on me twice. Like, yeah, sure, I could be a goon doing nothing or some weird action ninja. But you've literally hit me twice and you still think I might be scummy? Are you going to try and validate that Windward lost all their actions before condemning me on a might-be?
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Nov 17, 2022 21:10
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Monathin posted:HCT, you've gotten a "nothing" read on me twice. Like, yeah, sure, I could be a goon doing nothing or some weird action ninja. But you've literally hit me twice and you still think I might be scummy? Are you going to try and validate that Windward lost all their actions before condemning me on a might-be? No, I feel like voting you right now would be incredibly dangerous for all the same reasons as the others. The only one I might really consider strongly voting is binus, but even that is more risk than I think I want to take as long as we have a safer option. I am more interested in no-lunching and checking people, and yes, Windward is certainly high on the list of people I want to check. I'm just trying to get a feeling for what MSRR and Iggy want to do.
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Nov 17, 2022 21:14
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:Windward - I don't like that finding the other player added up to less than nothing for both Lotus and Windward. There's just about no reason for this to happen. There should have at minimum been a masonry, even if unconfirmed. There should have been something. But instead Wind's just lost her jail, and now claims she can't do her lightning rod either. I don't like that she only claimed the lightning rod late, either, she could have been an ersatz bodyguard with that. But as far as thread behavior goes? She's been trying to figure out the puzzles. She decided from the spat I had D2 with Hal one of us was scum which is in contrast to monathin calling both of us town. I'm just not having gutreads that pan out here. I think this above all is the part that sticks out the most for me. Windward has claimed a Jailer that they lost and a targetable Lightningrod they also lost. So much about Windward's claim makes it hard for things to add up for me: the only thing we have to go on is that Windward lost their jail at some point after N1 (Or, in a less charitable read, has elected not to use it.) Like, say what you will about me (I've been bad this game and can own up to it) but I've been consistent in my claim and have not tried any funny business around it.
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Nov 17, 2022 21:16
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I'm definitely fine with a NL, put the ball back in scum play and see if they want to take a chance on it. If we are absolutely going to make a call today I would call for Windward. The initial jailing was a validation that I held onto but with Lotus' flip more clear the more I feel like Lotus was meant to be partnered with a scum role. Nothing about that makes any sense otherwise.
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Nov 17, 2022 21:19
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Just so no one wonders where I am, I didn't sleep that well last night and I'm kinda exhausted so I'm going to try for an early night tonight (i.e. very soon). That has nothing to do with this game, just regular... you know, insomnia stuff. Anyway, I'm willing to vote for a no lunch at any time tomorrow, but if we want to do any more planning we should try and do so. I think MSRR shouldn't tell the thread who he intends to target. I trust he knows who the top candidates are, and it's better to keep scum guessing. I think I know who to check as well - should I say who, or is that just too big of a risk too you think?
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Nov 17, 2022 21:35
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Just so no one wonders where I am, I didn't sleep that well last night and I'm kinda exhausted so I'm going to try for an early night tonight (i.e. very soon). That has nothing to do with this game, just regular... you know, insomnia stuff. My thought is if scum get a kill off you're almost definitely dead so you should at least declare your targets.
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Nov 17, 2022 21:37
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Okay. My intended targets are Windward and binus. The reasons should be fairly obvious. MSRR, you can target pretty much anyone you want (though I would be extremely surprised if it's Iggy at this stage). In fact, if you think it's best to target one of my targets, that's not the worst thing in the world. Keep scum guessing here. Any objections to those targets?
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Nov 17, 2022 21:41
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Actually, I'm going to leave a no lunch vote here before I fall asleep. Don't feel pressured to join the vote, we still have plenty of time to discuss before deadline, or we can just run out the timer. But if everything sounds good with the plan it might be best to just get it over with and hope for anything helpful tomorrow. ##vote Nobody
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Nov 17, 2022 21:45
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I'm kinda coming around to a no lunch being favorable if we can't agree on who to vote out today, tbh Unrelated but this game reminds me of the time I was a bodyguard/restless doctor (doctor who acts after dying) and hard pushed the town jailkeeper without claiming my role, and then scum vanillized me during the night -_- I was dead certain they had a rolecop in order to pull that off, and I was right. But I also misvoted in LyLo so lol.
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Nov 17, 2022 21:55
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I think my major quibble with the concept of no-voting is that if the NK target ends up being me or Iggy, not much is learned for those remaining - most people seem to be under the assumption that the two of us are Not Scum, so we're an easy kill if scum wants to keep remaining town befuddled going into D5.
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Nov 17, 2022 22:03
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My Second Re-Reg posted:I think my major quibble with the concept of no-voting is that if the NK target ends up being me or Iggy, not much is learned for those remaining - most people seem to be under the assumption that the two of us are Not Scum, so we're an easy kill if scum wants to keep remaining town befuddled going into D5. If it's me or you chosen for NK, your roleblock could still stop it, but yeah, if you don't hit scum, then we're stuck with either trusting HCT's check if he claims one or killing monathin/HCT if he has nothing.
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Nov 17, 2022 22:18
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:If it's me or you chosen for NK, your roleblock could still stop it, but yeah, if you don't hit scum, then we're stuck with either trusting HCT's check if he claims one or killing monathin/HCT if he has nothing. Dear Scum: If you promise to kill either b, HCT, Windward or Monathin in the NK I will bake and mail you a box of cookies?
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Nov 17, 2022 22:21
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My Second Re-Reg posted:Dear Scum: If you promise to kill either b, HCT, Windward or Monathin in the NK I will bake and mail you a box of cookies? If they go after monathin that'll use up the BP he's claimed; outside a poisoner I don't think he's out the protection at this point. I'm willing to mail scum cookies too if they do that anyway though!
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Nov 17, 2022 22:26
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