Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
What do you think of the new international distribution deal?
This poll is closed.
Hate it 12 16.90%
REALLY hate it 16 22.54%
Hello, my name is Bob Chapek 43 60.56%
Total: 71 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Post
  • Reply
OgNar
Oct 26, 2002

They tapdance not, neither do they fart

Vinylshadow posted:

:hmmyes:

You never forget your first

Bit of a shame all the background material that's come out for that era kinda sours it though, but he still set a solid foundation Tennant, Smith, and Capaldi built on

Rose colored glasses. :imunfunny:



e: :imunfunny:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

delightful
Jul 20, 2022
Robert Picardo would make an insanely good Doctor Who and the fact this isn't happening is a crime against humanity.

apophenium
Apr 14, 2009

Cry 'Mayhem!' and let slip the dogs of Wardlow.
All the hubbub with 13's regeneration has gotten me interested in Who again. I've given up on ever watching the old stuff and have taken to reading the Target novelizations. They're quite good! Basic and to-the-point. I read the Unearthly Child one from the 80s and am now reading Doctor Who and the Daleks, which was published much nearer the story's original airing. It's written from Ian's perspective in first-person and has him meeting Barbara and Susan and the Doctor for the first time after a car accident, quite different from how the show went!

But it's fun seeing how the Daleks were presented and thinking about all the different iterations of them through the years.

Anyways, I intend to carry on reading these books, especially if they cover some of the lost episodes. I've always found that aspect of old Who very interesting and kind of frustrating. I may even go on to read some of the original stuff from the Wholess era even if it's not very good. I find I can read a bit here and there while at work and end up finishing a whole book on a week or so but I've never been able to muster the time and patience to sit through a whole Hartnell story.

What do y'all think about the novelizations and other Who novels?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

apophenium posted:

What do y'all think about the novelizations and other Who novels?

There's actually another poster who is currently going through some of the Target books and it's always great to read their thoughts, so please do the same!

The books were a big part of my childhood, I had a big range of the Target books and would read and reread them along with my Conan books, I just found them endlessly fascinating - especially since at the time the Hartnell and Troughton stories (not just the lost ones) weren't easy to see, so it was a way to get MORE Doctor Who and it never being enough, which is basically the throughline of my life. :sweatdrop:

BooDooBoo
Jul 14, 2005

That makes no sense to me at all.


https://fi.somethingawful.com/images/gangtags/severancemdr.gif

apophenium posted:

All the hubbub with 13's regeneration has gotten me interested in Who again. I've given up on ever watching the old stuff and have taken to reading the Target novelizations. They're quite good! Basic and to-the-point. I read the Unearthly Child one from the 80s and am now reading Doctor Who and the Daleks, which was published much nearer the story's original airing. It's written from Ian's perspective in first-person and has him meeting Barbara and Susan and the Doctor for the first time after a car accident, quite different from how the show went!

But it's fun seeing how the Daleks were presented and thinking about all the different iterations of them through the years.

Anyways, I intend to carry on reading these books, especially if they cover some of the lost episodes. I've always found that aspect of old Who very interesting and kind of frustrating. I may even go on to read some of the original stuff from the Wholess era even if it's not very good. I find I can read a bit here and there while at work and end up finishing a whole book on a week or so but I've never been able to muster the time and patience to sit through a whole Hartnell story.

What do y'all think about the novelizations and other Who novels?

I've not read the New Adventures since the early 2000's, I loved them and still do, but I don't think they'll have aged super-well, but it's what we had in the 90's!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


As an American growing up in the 80s and seeing DW inconsistently on various PBS runs, I would devour the Target novels as my only way to see (or resee) certain episodes. Some of them could really give you a totally different take if you'd never seen it before reading an episode.

The Space Museum is a great early one. If you've never watched the episode, read it first. It's :krad: Makes it seem a lot bigger and higher budget than it was.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

apophenium posted:

What do y'all think about the novelizations and other Who novels?

BooDooBoo posted:

I've not read the New Adventures since the early 2000's, I loved them and still do, but I don't think they'll have aged super-well, but it's what we had in the 90's!

Funny you should mention...

A few days ago I recently finished the last New Adventure I plan to read, having read maybe 25 of the 71 books, rather a few more than I was planning on. Even in my curated list there were some duds, but overall I found it an incredibly rewarding experience. Several of the books rank among the best Doctor Who stories, and the line as a whole is an essential link between the old series and the new.

As a reference, I've put together a list of what I think are the 10 most interesting books in the line (that I read). Cutting the total down to ten was a very painful process and eliminates several books I thought were phenomenal. It also doesn't follow the overarching story of the NAs, skipping over a lot of companion introductions and departures. But these are ten very good books that have something to say. Consider it a taster's guide.

Timewyrm: Exodus: It’s 1950 and the Nazis are in charge of Britain. The Seventh Doctor here is a bit harder, a bit sharper than McCoy portrayed him, but it fits in with the book’s deep dives into Nazi psychology and the overall tone of the books. You couldn’t have put this on TV in 1990, but coming as it does from Terrance Dicks, it does have the feel of something that might have been on TV one day, with the exception of some deep continuity pulls towards the end.
Are There Psychic Powers: No

Love and War: Paul Cornell plucks a throwaway line to create one of Doctor Who’s most terrifying enemies the fungus-based Hoothi, and before sending it to hell, spends a great deal of time building up the planet of Heaven as a real, if bizarre place. As one of the book’s conceits it keeps the Doctor’s inner thoughts opaque until the very end, when his hastily improvised scheme, one of his cruelest, firmly severs his relationship with Ace. Despite this, it never turns into grimdark, and even if the Doctor seems to be lacking in humanity, the supporting characters more than make up for it.
Are There Psychic Powers: Loads!

Transit: Quite a left turn considering this is a direct sequel to Love and War, this is a wacky action blockbuster involving a solar system-wide rapid transit system that became self-aware as it passed through hell, then starts converting its passengers into cybernetic soldiers. Admittedly it’s not the easiest read, and it pretty much wastes Benny in her first appearance as companion, but (I might be saying this a lot) the supporting cast is very well developed. It’s worst toughing your way through.
Are There Psychic Powers: No, but it certainly seems psychic-adjacent

The Left-Handed Hummingbird: The Doctor goes to Mexico City and trips balls. There is more to it; there’s a lot of stuff about the Aztecs and an insightful theme about recurring cycles of violence, from the Aztecs’ human sacrifice to modern-day mass shootings. All of Kate Orman's books seem meticulously researched, and I can only imagine how much harder that was in the infancy of the Internet. Still, she makes Mexico City, both past and present, feel like a real place. Tenochtitlan is a horrifying place with human sacrifices in the tens of thousands... but it's never stereotypical. Also, the Doctor does do LSD.
Are There Psychic Powers: Yes

No Future: After Ace’s return to the TARDIS, her relationship with the Doctor has been rather fraught, including stabbing him in The Left-Handed Hummingbird. This book is all about mending that relationship against the backdrop of the team-up nobody ever asked for: the Vardans (who?) and the Meddling Monk. There are some good bits of the Monk being indignant about how now the Doctor seems to have no problem changing history, so why even come after him?
Are There Psychic Powers: Yes

All-Consuming Fire: This is not an essential story by any means, but it’s one of the lines most creative conceits. All-Consuming Fire is a book within a book written by John Watson as a lost Sherlock Holmes story where Holmes and Watson join the Doctor and Benny in going to India and meeting some of Cthulhu’s best friends. Chock-full of good ideas, even if some of them are left undeveloped, and some excellent chin-wagging between the Doctor and Holmes.
Are There Psychic Powers: No?

Warlock: If not the best New Adventure, the most New Adventure. There’s a new drug called Warlock that causes various psychic (check) phenomenon and the IDEA (that’s International Drug Enforcement Agency) is after it. Also it’s maybe sentient. This is a 90s-rear end angry screed against animal testing and one of its best developed characters is the Doctor’s pet cat.
Human Nature: It’s very funny to imagine that the 10th Doctor episode and this are both canon and that the Doctor got turned into a human professor in 1913 twice. You know what this book is about, it’s very very good, and its crew of bad guys are a lot more interesting than the ones in the episode. The biggest difference is that Seven, especially in the NAs, is a far more distant character than Ten, and the scenes between him and Joan at the end are just heartbreaking.
Are There Psychic Powers: The entire novel is a psychic power

Christmas on a Rational Planet: So this is the first Lawrence Miles book I’ve read. It’s very funny that he dislikes Moffat because this is the most Moffat-rear end book I’ve ever read. It’s got wild-rear end meta ideas, timey-wimey bullshit, and fascinating ideas unfortunately bound up in gender essentialism. The TARDIS turns inside-out and unreality starts leaking into colonial America and then things get crazy. This book starts falling apart well before the end but its ideas are so interesting it’s well worth a read even if things don’t make sense. Also, it contains the most “Are women bourgeois?” scene ever, where Roz, a Black woman from the 30th century, is pretending to be an 18th century fortune-teller:

quote:

‘All right,’ said (Roz)… ‘I’ll tell you what you want to know. You’ll lead a happy, prosperous life, move out to the plains, buy yourself a nice big house and a nice big flitter, or horse-and-cart, or whatever it is you have here, and your children’ll grow up to be lawyers or generals or something. You still won’t achieve anything much, and you’ll die of old age, probably in your sleep…Any other questions?’
Any other questions?
Yes, thought Isaac. Oh, yes. Questions about the shape the world is being twisted into, questions about the mumblings I hear from the town and all the wars they seem to want to start, questions about Church and State and Heaven and Hell and politics and anarchy and everything in between. Questions that I can’t even fit into proper sentences.
And he felt a series of words slide onto his tongue, and prayed that this would be it, that this would be the one question he desperately needed to ask, that just the right letters would fall from his lips and the Negress would understand what he really wanted and give him all the answers.
He opened his mouth.
‘Is it true you eat people in Africa?’ he heard himself say.
There was a silence as big as all outdoors. The woman’s expression was unreadable.
Are There Psychic Powers: I mean, no, but also yes

Damaged Goods:

quote:

The Doctor said briskly, ‘Roz, get me a car. Chris, get me some cocaine.’

This is the one that RTD wrote. It’s not just great, it’s an essential link between both the old and the new series, and between the NAs and the new series. Many of the NAs sideline the Doctor and foreground the companion with an assortment of original characters. I know SOME PEOPLE don’t enjoy this, and in Damaged Goods it’s revealed that one of those people is the Doctor:

quote:

The Doctor despaired. He knew what he had become: a supporting player in the cast, denied the power and knowledge of the lead actors. He thought grimly that he deserved it. He had never paid his supporting casts much attention. He would lavish time on his companions and his contacts and his enemies, but the faceless extras went ignored; the guards and villagers and rebels and passers‐by who had fallen, nameless and unmourned, in the Doctor’s battles. These people never knew why they died, never had the chance to understand that greater issues had taken precedence over their little lives. They knew only life one minute and death the next. Now, they had their revenge. The Doctor had joined their ranks, powerless and ignorant and forgotten while disaster swept all around.

The Doctor shows up to a housing bloc in the 80s and just… flounders. He can’t hack it. If he was aware of the psychologies and personal relationships and life events of the Tyler (!) family he could’ve stopped it. But he isn’t, and he can’t and there is a massive price to pay. This isn’t just an indictment of the Doctor, it’s an argument for how he needs to do things differently. He needs to know the little people. He needs to kiss Billie Piper. Is it any surprise that when the new series starts the first companion is a lower-class girl named Tyler?

For a largely TV writer, RTD takes an extremely wide view, either zooming way out to examine the cosmic ramifications of actions or delving deep into his character’s psyches and nowhere does he do this better than with the book’s “villain,” Mrs Jericho, one of the most tragic ones in Doctor Who: a woman with a sick child. RTD spends a lot of time in her head and there’s so many passages I want to quote, but this one will have to do, as Mrs Jericho ponders over yet another diagnosis hopeless doctors have thrown out to explain her child’s chronic sickness. Christ is his prose good:

quote:

By now, Mrs Jericho associated all these incompetent specialists with one particular gesture: a slow shake of the head as each man and woman, flown in from France and America and Egypt and Iran, confessed themselves to be at a loss. Mrs Jericho could measure out her son’s life in these sad, sympathetic headshakes; she imagined that Steven’s pall‐bearers would carry the same expression.

She envisaged the funeral – the flowers, the hymns, the guests – with great precision. At the back of her wardrobe there was a black Jean Muir dress, shrouded in cellophane, unworn since its purchase, one of the few objects in Mrs Jericho’s bedroom safe from her scissors, safe from mutilation. It was not a conscious decision to leave the dress alone – sometimes her hand would stray towards it, she would look at the jet‐black cotton and consider it for wearing that week, perhaps to the theatre, perhaps to a charity function, only to replace it and move on. And a malignant part of her subconscious would nod, would say, save it, that’s the dress, the perfect dress for Steven’s funeral.

The other preparations for that inevitable day were far more conscious. In the early hours of the morning when the plans would spring unbidden into Mrs Jericho’s mind – long, sleepless nights in which her scissors would be busier than ever – she would go through the expected reactions. She would cry, she would scream her husband awake, she would kneel by the toilet and make herself vomit, and always she would listen to the Voice in her head. But at the same time, if she were honest – if anyone were honest – a funeral‐to‐come promises undoubted magnificence, a ceremony as splendid and seductive as a fine, ancient ruin. Grief and martyrdom and pity are the most wonderful things, and they were coming Mrs Jericho’s way.



She turned her face to Steven’s and stroked his thin, blue veined arm, to avoid the nurse’s attentions; she appreciated the thought but disliked the girl’s intimate tone. Mrs Jericho had seen too many nurses to expend energy on all of them, except to pity them. Nurses had no choice but to spend every day in the company of doctors, and doctors were idiots, doctors were people who took home vast sums of money for prying into their patients’ lives, rooting out every secret, every failure, and doing nothing to help.

There’s another passage that’s far too long to quote that parallels Mrs Jericho and the other female lead, Mrs Tyler slowly deciding to take drastic actions as they do housework. At the end, both of them resolve to go through with their choices, only Mrs Tyler is interrupted by the arrival of her daughter. Mrs Jericho, however, has nobody, and so what happens happens. It’s without a joke one of the best pieces of prose I’ve ever read. I drat near highlighted the entire book.
Are There Psychic Powers: My brother in Christ, there is psychic cocaine

I have some other thoughts, like Ace's ultimate departure or how Roz is by far the worst person the Doctor has ever had as a companion, but I don't want to go whole-hog on a bunch of books more people haven't read.

tl;dr Read Damaged Goods, also read Warlock probably, the others are great, too

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Astroman posted:

The Space Museum is a great early one. If you've never watched the episode, read it first. It's :krad: Makes it seem a lot bigger and higher budget than it was.

Yeah, The Space Museum I read (multiple times!) before I ever saw the actual episodes and it REALLY built it up in my head.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Is Roz worse than the actual big game hunter from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship?

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

Dabir posted:

Is Roz worse than the actual big game hunter from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship?

She is a) a trigger-happy cop, which fair enough sounds a lot worse in 2022 than in 1995, b) extremely racist against aliens, even after learning that the memory of her partner getting shot by an alien was an implanted one, c) occasionally expresses sympathy for the Third Reich, and d) when stranded in the 1790s, attempts to contact the Doctor by shooting a man named Lincoln with the working knowledge that the TARDIS only lands near famous people and consequently this must be Abraham Lincoln's grandfather and the Doctor will stop it from happening (in fairness to Roz, this is hilarious).

In Christmas on a Rational Planet, the same book where she tries to kill Lincoln, a character known as Bad Roz shows up who is supposed to be Roz as she was before she met the Doctor, and... well Lawrence Miles is either a very bad writer or a very good writer, because she's pretty indistinguishable from 'Good' Roz.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!

Astroman posted:

As an American growing up in the 80s and seeing DW inconsistently on various PBS runs, I would devour the Target novels as my only way to see (or resee) certain episodes. Some of them could really give you a totally different take if you'd never seen it before reading an episode.

That was basically me as well, I remember excitedly going to various bookstores and checking to see what new Target novelizations they had on the shelves that week.

apophenium
Apr 14, 2009

Cry 'Mayhem!' and let slip the dogs of Wardlow.
What a great write-up, Rochallor! Thanks for that! Media tie-in novels are a strange fascination of mine. I've read a lot of Star Trek ones and thought I'd dip my toes into the Who stuff. I had tried to read The Dying Days before but it was... Rough. It's the last one that Virgin had the rights to the Doctor so they're really just building things up for the Bernice Summerfield spinoff. It's the only one to have the 8th doctor and they had no idea how to write him.

And it seems like unlike Star Trek the current Who novels focus on recent doctors only? I guess old doctors new adventures is what Big Finish is for!

There's just something about the weird mix of limitations and freedoms authors have for media tie-ins. The characters should all behave pretty much like they do on the show or movies or whatever. But then you're not constrained by special effects budgets or TV censors. Some authors play it really really safe while others go hog wild. It makes for interesting if uneven reading.

e. Side note it's interesting to see so many posters from the AEW threads in here. Not a crossover I'd expect!

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮
I'm a wrestling fan, but not of the federation you're expecting!

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

apophenium posted:

e. Side note it's interesting to see so many posters from the AEW threads in here. Not a crossover I'd expect!

I'm not into wrestling, but do enjoy listening to other people who are really into wrestling, and there's just generally a lot of crossover appeal you wouldn't expect. Realizing that modern pro wrestling and modern shonen anime have been constantly borrowing from each other was a bit of a revelation.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

apophenium posted:

What a great write-up, Rochallor! Thanks for that! Media tie-in novels are a strange fascination of mine. I've read a lot of Star Trek ones and thought I'd dip my toes into the Who stuff. I had tried to read The Dying Days before but it was... Rough. It's the last one that Virgin had the rights to the Doctor so they're really just building things up for the Bernice Summerfield spinoff. It's the only one to have the 8th doctor and they had no idea how to write him.

And it seems like unlike Star Trek the current Who novels focus on recent doctors only? I guess old doctors new adventures is what Big Finish is for!

There's just something about the weird mix of limitations and freedoms authors have for media tie-ins. The characters should all behave pretty much like they do on the show or movies or whatever. But then you're not constrained by special effects budgets or TV censors. Some authors play it really really safe while others go hog wild. It makes for interesting if uneven reading.

e. Side note it's interesting to see so many posters from the AEW threads in here. Not a crossover I'd expect!

The only tie-in stuff I was familiar with before diving into Doctor Who was the Star Wars EU, which is generally just pleasantly mediocre, there's a canon that usually works but sometimes things break. From what I've heard of the Star Trek stuff there's bunches of competing timelines and canons and whatnot? I suppose Doctor Who is the same way, it's just that it's time travel so there's no such thing as canon.

In regards to content, the NAs settle after maybe a dozen into your standard fake swears (Cruk!) but for a while it's a complete free for all. You got F-bombs dropping left, right, and center, and presumably somebody at the BBC had to come in and say, "Uh, so that show that ended with the nice man who plays the spoons and Sophie Aldred having an adventure with people in animal costumes? Maybe don't have the tie-in book discuss how the sex worker cleans her mouth after giving a BJ, thanks."

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013

Rochallor posted:

In regards to content, the NAs settle after maybe a dozen into your standard fake swears (Cruk!) but for a while it's a complete free for all. You got F-bombs dropping left, right, and center, and presumably somebody at the BBC had to come in and say, "Uh, so that show that ended with the nice man who plays the spoons and Sophie Aldred having an adventure with people in animal costumes? Maybe don't have the tie-in book discuss how the sex worker cleans her mouth after giving a BJ, thanks."

This never really happens with the NAs, and they're much better for it IMO. The EDAs went through a period that was a bit like this, but they eventually went back to being more blatant with their themes -- I think the only real difference is that they don't have as much explicit swearing; they still deal with issues like drug dependency, sex and sexual violence, the psychological effects of violence and committing murder, etc. There's a lot of good stories that came out of it as a result, though a lot of poor ones too. But that's the nature of an anthology series.

These were stories for adults, that -- correctly, tbh -- assumed that their audience was also mostly adults and should probably be consuming media for adults as a result. The movement back to trad storytelling was ultimately what killed off my interest in the range.

Rochallor posted:

She is a) a trigger-happy cop, which fair enough sounds a lot worse in 2022 than in 1995, b) extremely racist against aliens, even after learning that the memory of her partner getting shot by an alien was an implanted one, c) occasionally expresses sympathy for the Third Reich, and d) when stranded in the 1790s, attempts to contact the Doctor by shooting a man named Lincoln with the working knowledge that the TARDIS only lands near famous people and consequently this must be Abraham Lincoln's grandfather and the Doctor will stop it from happening (in fairness to Roz, this is hilarious).

In Christmas on a Rational Planet, the same book where she tries to kill Lincoln, a character known as Bad Roz shows up who is supposed to be Roz as she was before she met the Doctor, and... well Lawrence Miles is either a very bad writer or a very good writer, because she's pretty indistinguishable from 'Good' Roz.

Lawrence Miles really hated Roz -- because she's not just a racist cop, but she's also royalty -- and characterised her accordingly. I wouldn't say her appearance there is representational of her as a character all over, though she very much is intentionally a difficult character and she does undergo character development as the series progresses.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!

apophenium posted:

e. Side note it's interesting to see so many posters from the AEW threads in here. Not a crossover I'd expect!

My two greatest interests throughout the 1980s absolutely were Doctor Who and pro wrestling :c00l:

RandolphCarter
Jul 30, 2005


William Regal as The Master.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!

RandolphCarter posted:

William Regal as The Master.

Odd, I can't find the "like" button for this post :confused:

Coward
Sep 10, 2009

I say we take off and surrender unconditionally from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure



.
Would love to see the Master surreptitiously pull knuckledusters out of his underpants and then deck the Doctor.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant
Eccleston's doc was sometimes just giddy to be doing things. It was cool.

Vinylshadow posted:

Bit of a shame all the background material that's come out for that era kinda sours it though, but he still set a solid foundation Tennant, Smith, and Capaldi built on
I'm really out of the loop. What kind of poo poo show was it?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

FilthyImp posted:

I'm really out of the loop. What kind of poo poo show was it?

Somebody can hopefully correct any details I have wrong, but I believe there were issues around overworking the cast and crew which Eccleston I believe tried to prevent by putting his foot down and refusing to normalize working beyond the maximum hours that are supposed to be allowed on set, thinking that without him they'd have no choice but to pull back. Instead, they just worked around that by scheduling Billie Piper's stuff for those extra hours of filming, and she was too new/inexperienced in acting to feel confident standing up against that type of thing. I believe Eccleston also wasn't overly happy with the way the production ran in general, he'd come in with different expectations from his experience of working with RTD on The Second Coming.

Beyond that though, in the last couple of years it's come out that Noel Clarke acts very inappropriately on set (not just on Doctor Who, but also on his own productions where he was the driving force behind some apparently very misogynistic behavior), and John Barrowman had a "hilarious" reputation for just taking his cock out and slapping it around on people's shoulders and near their faces.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
Lawrence Miles is a very good writer, and has Themes and Plot most writers could only dream of, but when he doesn’t like something, you know it.

Excellent write-ups! Reading the NAs as they came out (or at least while still in publication) was a wild time. My favourite during that era was definitely The Also People, which felt like a relaxing holiday between hardcore psychic battles.

I said at the time, the bit in Power of the Doctor where 13 meets an amalgam/shifting version of her past selves before they fall off the edge into oblivion felt like something straight out of a New Adventure.

Barry the Sprout
Jan 12, 2001

The other thing about Christmas on a Rational Planet, is that Lawrence Miles says he squeezed a reference to every single televised story into it. Not too sure i picked them up when i reread it.

I really enjoyed the NAs, even the looms. And absolutely the bit with the old doctors on the cliff in Power of the Doctor was for sure inspired by them.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013

Jerusalem posted:

Somebody can hopefully correct any details I have wrong, but I believe there were issues around overworking the cast and crew which Eccleston I believe tried to prevent by putting his foot down and refusing to normalize working beyond the maximum hours that are supposed to be allowed on set, thinking that without him they'd have no choice but to pull back. Instead, they just worked around that by scheduling Billie Piper's stuff for those extra hours of filming, and she was too new/inexperienced in acting to feel confident standing up against that type of thing. I believe Eccleston also wasn't overly happy with the way the production ran in general, he'd come in with different expectations from his experience of working with RTD on The Second Coming.

Beyond that though, in the last couple of years it's come out that Noel Clarke acts very inappropriately on set (not just on Doctor Who, but also on his own productions where he was the driving force behind some apparently very misogynistic behavior), and John Barrowman had a "hilarious" reputation for just taking his cock out and slapping it around on people's shoulders and near their faces.

Oh yeah, and didn't Eccelston end up developing anorexia because of the pressure put on him by the show?

And there's that burning couch incident, some sort of stunt gone wrong. I dunno the exact details though.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Eccleston's anorexia was a long running thing dating back to his childhood. I can't imagine the stuff he was dealing with on set helped, but it wasn't the direct cause.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Rewatched New Earth the other day and even though it's clearly nonsense it's nonsense that actually works as a story, with strong characterisation, foreshadowing and all that business. Really puts the Chibnall era into perspective.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

Open Source Idiom posted:

Lawrence Miles really hated Roz -- because she's not just a racist cop, but she's also royalty -- and characterised her accordingly. I wouldn't say her appearance there is representational of her as a character all over, though she very much is intentionally a difficult character and she does undergo character development as the series progresses.

Maybe I'm just in agreement with Miles, then, because I thought her portrayal there was pretty typical of her as a whole. She's maybe the most developed character of the line, tied for Benny at least, it's just that she's a well-developed and characterized... bad person.

The_Doctor posted:

Excellent write-ups! Reading the NAs as they came out (or at least while still in publication) was a wild time. My favourite during that era was definitely The Also People, which felt like a relaxing holiday between hardcore psychic battles.

Yeah, The Also People is another unbelievably good book.

Barry the Sprout posted:

The other thing about Christmas on a Rational Planet, is that Lawrence Miles says he squeezed a reference to every single televised story into it. Not too sure i picked them up when i reread it

He certainly squeezed in a reference to every New Adventure, through this line:

quote:

Christopher Cwej sat on a nearby mound of dictionaries, with one of the books open in his hands. He was flipping through words beginning with ‘psy’ to see what kind of ‘cool psychic powers’ Duquesne had.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!

Jerusalem posted:

Somebody can hopefully correct any details I have wrong, but I believe there were issues around overworking the cast and crew which Eccleston I believe tried to prevent by putting his foot down and refusing to normalize working beyond the maximum hours that are supposed to be allowed on set, thinking that without him they'd have no choice but to pull back. Instead, they just worked around that by scheduling Billie Piper's stuff for those extra hours of filming, and she was too new/inexperienced in acting to feel confident standing up against that type of thing. I believe Eccleston also wasn't overly happy with the way the production ran in general, he'd come in with different expectations from his experience of working with RTD on The Second Coming.

Also IIRC, when he'd finally decided to leave at the end of the season, he thought he'd arranged to do so quietly and without controversy...only for stories about how he was "tired" and "overwrought" to start not-at-all-coincidentally appearing in the British press. I vaguely remember reading something around the time when he started doing the Big Finish stuff, where he'd said when that happened, it completely soured any relationships he'd had (working or otherwise) with the people he'd worked with at the BBC and RTD and his production crew. And that as far as he was concerned, no steps had been taken by any of them since then to repair things.

quote:

Beyond that though, in the last couple of years it's come out that Noel Clarke acts very inappropriately on set (not just on Doctor Who, but also on his own productions where he was the driving force behind some apparently very misogynistic behavior), and John Barrowman had a "hilarious" reputation for just taking his cock out and slapping it around on people's shoulders and near their faces.

And when he was called out on it, Barrowman first tried to play it off as just high-spirited japery meant to keep everyone's spirits up on set (quite how some guy flashing his meat around is supposed to achieve that, I dunno), then tried the "I was a different person back then" excuse, as though it happened during his teens and not when he was in his late 30s/early 40s. I believe he finally delivered the usual grudging "sorry if you took offense" non-apology that most people who do that sort of thing tend to give. I think he also hopped on the "cancel culture" bullshit bandwagon, to really drive the point home that he doesn't actually understand why people weren't overjoyed every time he pulled his dick out on set.

Emerson Cod
Apr 14, 2004

by Pragmatica
I know that I've been posting here for a while and getting a negative response but I was recently scheduled to speak on several panels at Chicago TARDIS 2022 until I was threatened away by Secret Service agents. I made a recording of their threats here: https://snip

I have records backing up all of this including the letter I sent to Chicago TARDIS that established my credentials and knowledge of the show. I know that you think that this is just a story but it's desperately real. Listen to the audio with headphones on, the crowd is loud but the message is clear - I am being intimidated from speaking the truth about a woman being held captive. I was harassed by these SS agents specifically regarding her - not the President.

Infinitum
Jul 30, 2004


Had a weird rear end dream where I released an encrypted batch torrent of every single Doctor Who ep in HD, including the missing eps, and would only release the decrypt key if they released the new anniversary eps straight away.

Guess my brain doesn't want to wait an entire goddamn year for more Doctor Who

Confusedslight
Jan 9, 2020
I truly believe all the missing episodes are being hoarded by collectors scattered around the world. I don't really believe in conspiracies but this podcast episode about a hoarder who passed away with an massive collection of all sorts of stuff has given me hope. That will surely end in my heart being broken again but still! We might be close to another being found. Big miiiight. https://vyb42todoomsday.podbean.com/e/42-to-doomsday-unleash-the-hoarders/

Emerson Cod
Apr 14, 2004

by Pragmatica
I can let you know exactly where copies reside. The British Crown retains a copy of all media released in the Commonwealth in a special archive. That is where the missing episodes from The Web of Fear and The Enemy of The World came from - they knew that they would be relevant to the serials with the Great Intelligence and the Zygon Invasion and so the Royal Family chose to
release them in as high a quality as possible while masking their true origins. I've seen a bit of Power of The Daleks and it looks fantastic.

https://www.royal.uk/archives

Emerson Cod fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 26, 2022

Infinitum
Jul 30, 2004


Put your Bible calculator away mate.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!
I prefer Emerson Cod, Lake and Palmer myself

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World

Sydney Bottocks posted:

I prefer Emerson Cod, Lake and Palmer myself

Fanfare for the Common Bible Code Man

Confusedslight
Jan 9, 2020

Emerson Cod posted:

I can let you know exactly where copies reside. The British Crown retains a copy of all media released in the Commonwealth in a special archive. That is where the missing episodes from The Web of Fear and The Enemy of The World came from - they knew that they would be relevant to the serials with the Great Intelligence and the Zygon Invasion and so the Royal Family chose to
release them in as high a quality as possible while masking their true origins. I've seen a bit of Power of The Daleks and it looks fantastic.

https://www.royal.uk/archives

I still don't know if you're doing a bit.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World

Confusedslight posted:

I still don't know if you're doing a bit.

:corsair: Trying to parse actually stupid vs pretending to be stupid as a gimmick is rarely worth it IMO

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 days!

Confusedslight posted:

I still don't know if you're doing a bit.

It has to be a bit; everyone knows that if the Royals actually had the missing eps of DW stashed away, old neckbearded Whovians would have risen up against them in such a way as to make the French Revolution look like a minor dispute between labor and management

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Sydney Bottocks posted:

It has to be a bit; everyone knows that if the Royals actually had the missing eps of DW stashed away, old neckbearded Whovians would have risen up against them in such a way as to make the French Revolution look like a minor dispute between labor and management

But enough about Ian Levine ...

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply