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pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021

socialsecurity posted:

WOR spoilers where Pik_D is Kaladin hopping into the ring like is one of my favorite moments of WoR

Yeah that part of it really loving owned

Tunicate posted:

To be fair a competent leader could have just said I have witnessed two men win shardblades in the arena, against a staggering disadvantage, and in admiration of their feat, I grant the right of challenge to both brightlord Adolin and brightlord Kaladin.

And it would have made the challenge even more legit, a darkeyes winning a shardblade unarmed it the type of legendary poo poo a boon is for.


Kaladin isn't a Shardbearer on account of Shardblades being a dirty lighteyes weapon, unlike the good and honest pointy stick. They have talked about the fact that it is possible to make new Shardblades, untainted by the treachery of the Knights Radiant. I really want him to make a Shardspear though, instead of a Shardblade.

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pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021

CapnAndy posted:

You are so close on so much. But I do want to correct you here. Amaram is not pretending to be a new Radiant. As far as both he and Dalinar know, the Knights Radiant are ancient mythology that are long since gone. Dalinar "resurrected" them as a symbolic gesture, saying essentially "we know we don't have their abilities, but nobody does any more, so we're going to try to live up to their ideals and do their job of serving the people anyway". They don't know about Kaladin, Shallan, Lift, or anyone else running around right now. As far as Amaram knows, he is a Knight Radiant, in so far as it's possible for anyone to be one in these fallen times.

gently caress Amaram for a million other reasons, though.


You are right, I am using my own term "new Radiants" in two different ways here. Amaram is basically just taking the mantel in a sort of stolen valor kind of way, not a "I'm a magic man" way.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
Why stop at pointy stick. We have the technology. Turn the weapons of war into tools of peace - shard cutlery.

pointlessone
Aug 6, 2001

The Triad Frog is pleased with this custom title purchase.
Cook dinner from the inside out: The new Ginsu Shardknife, only $19.95.

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021

pointlessone posted:

Cook dinner from the inside out: The new Ginsu Shardknife, only $19.95.

That's just a Subnautica Thermoblade

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone



pik_d posted:

Are there any other people this weird process reminds you of?

Other than the Inquisitors? Not really. It's possible the Kandra had something similar done to them with the "Blessings." Though it sounds like not all of them have blessings, and they can take the blessings from other Kandra if they kill them, which doesn't sound very inquisitor-esq.

There's only a couple other metal piercing flesh things I can think of. Vin's earring and the Lord Ruler's bracelets, but neither of those seem like they could have been punched through someone else, killing them, while being inserted.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Nitrousoxide posted:

Other than the Inquisitors? Not really. It's possible the Kandra had something similar done to them with the "Blessings." Though it sounds like not all of them have blessings, and they can take the blessings from other Kandra if they kill them, which doesn't sound very inquisitor-esq.

There's only a couple other metal piercing flesh things I can think of. Vin's earring and the Lord Ruler's bracelets, but neither of those seem like they could have been punched through someone else, killing them, while being inserted.

Well, be sure to revisit this post once you've finished Hero of Ages :)

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Fyi, really appreciate the thoughts on next books after Reckoners, I've got a good idea of progression at this point for sure. Thanks all who responded!

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

pik_d posted:



Kaladin isn't a Shardbearer on account of Shardblades being a dirty lighteyes weapon, unlike the good and honest pointy stick. They have talked about the fact that it is possible to make new Shardblades, untainted by the treachery of the Knights Radiant. I really want him to make a Shardspear though, instead of a Shardblade.
The drama of him having to choose which of them he hates more would have been great

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010


I've been trying to wait to reread until book 5 is near, but your posts are making it drat hard pik_d.

Can't wait for the realizations you'll have later in WoR :allears:

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
I'm so close finishing Part 2 of WoK. Do we ever get to a point where the chapters aren't just a bunch of people standing around talking? Because boooooooooooooooooy that feels like all that has happened for the last 15 hours. Talking. Talking. More talking.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Mordiceius posted:

I'm so close finishing Part 2 of WoK. Do we ever get to a point where the chapters aren't just a bunch of people standing around talking? Because boooooooooooooooooy that feels like all that has happened for the last 15 hours. Talking. Talking. More talking.
Yes. A bit at the end with the Sanderlanche, but WoR and beyond is way better.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

Mordiceius posted:

I'm so close finishing Part 2 of WoK. Do we ever get to a point where the chapters aren't just a bunch of people standing around talking? Because boooooooooooooooooy that feels like all that has happened for the last 15 hours. Talking. Talking. More talking.

You could say you feel a storm raging inside you urging you to act.

road potato
Dec 19, 2005

socialsecurity posted:

WOR spoilers where Pik_D is Kaladin hopping into the ring like is one of my favorite moments of WoR

Continuing same distance in the books Honestly one of the best action sequences in all of Stormlight Archive, through and through. There's other moments and snippets that are as fun, but as far as a high-octane, longer scene, that one is just beautifully crafted.

Spoilers from further on/future books:

The big set-piece battle at the end of Words of Radiance, with the Everstorm coming, the Alethi plan falling to poo poo, Kaladin returning after swearing the next ideal, etc.

Jasnah's sequence on the battlefield in ROW has some pretty good moments.


What else is there that comes close?

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

road potato posted:

Continuing same distance in the books Honestly one of the best action sequences in all of Stormlight Archive, through and through. There's other moments and snippets that are as fun, but as far as a high-octane, longer scene, that one is just beautifully crafted.

Spoilers from further on/future books:

The big set-piece battle at the end of Words of Radiance, with the Everstorm coming, the Alethi plan falling to poo poo, Kaladin returning after swearing the next ideal, etc.

Jasnah's sequence on the battlefield in ROW has some pretty good moments.


What else is there that comes close?

Oathbringer spoilers Jasnah going all out at the end of the book, turning 100s of dudes to crystal and soulcasting enemy projectiles away in midair was nice.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

socialsecurity posted:

Oathbringer spoilers Jasnah going all out at the end of the book, turning 100s of dudes to crystal and soulcasting enemy projectiles away in midair was nice.

Battle of Thaylena was pretty dope too

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

road potato posted:

What else is there that comes close?
Full Stormlight spoilers: Battle of Thaylen Field is loving awesome. Jasnah kicking off and showing what an unbound Soulcaster can do is great, but there's also Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin's triumphant returns, Renarin defeating a stormclast by willingly getting himself repeatedly pancaked, the illusion swarm, Lift teaming up with Szeth to run a scam on the battlefield, Maya waking up for the first time, and everything Dalinar does. That's still the high point for anything Sanderson's written imo.

Kaladin's final match with the Pursuer/Defeated One is pretty good too. And while it's extremely dark, I find it hilarious when he's in complete PTSD vapor lock after Teft's death only for the Pursuer to gently caress with him again and he just immediately snaps into action, effortlessly stomps him flat, brutally rips his head off, and then goes right back into kneeling insensate on the floor. Way to prove Moash right that the only way to beat you is to not give you any enemies to fight so you have to turn on yourself, dude.

CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Sep 12, 2023

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
Way of Kings - Part 2

Wooboy I have thoughts. I'm not as thoughtful or elequent as Pik_d, but here goes.

I took some notes early on for this section. They read:

Shard blade oathbringer book hype
Keyblade Graveyard?
Spren on greatshell corpses???
Kaladin not working toward anything
Flashbacks make a slow story slower

Regarding these notes - they're all mostly a month old, so I don't remember the context. The Spren on Greatshell corpses was one that stood out to me but I don't remember why. It felt like it was presented in a very odd way.

I'm enjoying this book any time I'm in a Dalinar/Adolin chapter and I am miserable any time I am in a Kaladin chapter. This is not just a "Kaladin has depression" sort of thing because other than early on in this book, he's not acting very depressed for majority of part 2. I mentioned this briefly before, but Kaladin feels like Raoden all over again. He isn't really presented as having any flaws and it feels more like "Kaladin can't failed, he can only be failed" sort of poo poo. It's tremendously boring.

This also goes to my own biases with Kaladin just feeling too young. Oh look he's a child prodigy doctor at the age of 13. By the age of 16, he's a charismatic, incredibly skilled battlefield commander. Is there anything Kaladin isn't just amazing at? It's taking time to win over the crew of Bridge 4, but that just makes me think of Raoden taking time to win over the Hoed in Elantris.

The most frustrating thing about the Kaladin parts is just the pacing and the information that is given vs the information that is held back. Why are we still not being told what happened at that battle in chapter 1 that lead to Kaladin being a slave? That seems a whole loving lot more immediately relevant than a flashback chapter of child-surgeon Kaladin failing to save the life of a girl with a broken leg. It's also frustrating to have the constant references to him being upset about Tien... without any further detail. I'm sure it's probably something to do with the citylord that came to their place, but booooooooooy is it hard for me to give a poo poo about anything happening in these flashbacks.

In the end, I think Kaladin's chapters suffer because it doesn't feel like he's working toward any greater goal. At the very least, any greater goal that is defined in any meaningful way. Kaladin's chapter are a whole lot of "yeah, he's just trying to survive Bridge 4 stuff" and I just don't find that very compelling when it feels so directless. Compare that to Dalinar who has very very well defined struggles and goals. Dalinar is suffering from visions/hallucinations as well as memory loss. He has a voice telling him to "unite them." He wants to improve Alethi and has plans to make that happen. When I read a Dalinar chapter, I'm able to see Dalinar making progress or hitting bumps. Kaladin chapters are a whole lot of "thing happened, the end." Maybe I'm just grumpy but I also really don't care about the secondary characters in Kaladin's portions either. I know they're supposed to be prickly and rude due to them all being abused slaves, but it just keeps going.

I'm 19 hours (42%!!) in to this 45.5 hour audiobook and so loving little has happened.

I've heard it mentioned that Brandon writes each Stormlight book as trilogy unto itself, but I'm wondering if that applies more to later books because it certainly doesn't feel like I've read 1/3 of a trilogy of a story. I still feel like I'm in the first 20% of a book with how little has happened.

Enough ranting about Kaladin. Let's talk Dalinar and Adolin. These chapters fuckin rule. Sure, there are long stretches where little happens, but we get to see far loving more of stuff actually happening. Chasm fiend fights! Politicking! Adolin having a crush on every girl! These chapters feel like they have so goddamn much personality compared to the bland Kaladin chapters. Dalinar quickly became my favorite character in this book so far. His mysteries interest me a great deal more than Kaladin's.

The Alethi, overall, suck poo poo. I'm with Adolin, lets start dueling and murdering high princes. gently caress those guys. Elhokar also sucks so much. He needs the poo poo smacked out of him. Just complete dumbass energy. I hope he gets assassinated or something because he's so goddamn stupid. Dalinar trying to unite the high princes feels like an uphill battle that is going to be incredibly frustrating as all of the high princes suck poo poo. Sadeus has big villain energy and I feel like Sanderson created him as a lightning rod for reader hatred. I look forward to someone murdering the poo poo out of him. I hope it is brutal. (Come on Adolin, you can do it. I believe in you!)

The vision that Dalinar had was probably my high point of the book thus far because we got to see cool weird magic poo poo happen. Which highlights my biggest problem with the book so far - not enough cool magic poo poo. Currently, outside of the prologue, the only really magic poo poo we've seen is the people wearing their Ironman armor with their keyblades. I want to know more about these, but also, give me more magic. But really though, where do shard blades/plate come from? It seems to be a cheap imitation of the Radiants but is it a replica? Is shard plate just the radiant armor that has survived 5000 years? Is there a secret to unlocking its true power? Can new shard plate/blades be made? They had to come from somewhere originally.

My biggest frustration in all of this is just the lack of magic and cool action. We've seen from the prologue that there's cool magic poo poo that can get done. But all we've gotten so far are a couple chapters of people wearing Ironman armor. This book, so far, has been incredibly low-magic fantasy. I'm just begging for something, anything magical to happen. I want to see people flying through the air. I want to learn more about all the magical powers. I've seen talk that there's like 10 types of Radiant magical powers. I'm ready to start seeing those. Please god. Give me anything more than just people standing around talking.


Overall - I've settled into this book a lot more but I'm still incredibly frustrated and often incredibly bored during it. At the current point, it is near the bottom tier of Sanderson books for me.

Grundulum
Feb 28, 2006
Mordiceius, don’t feel the need to apologize for not being pik_d. God knows I wasn’t, and I still wish I had taken notes like you’re doing. If you stick with the series it’ll be neat to compare your knowledge after Rhythm of War with the questions you’re asking here.

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021

Mordiceius posted:

Way of Kings - Part 2

I think the greatshell spren thing was weird because it was the first spren mentioned where people were like "no idea what kind of spren that is, weird though".

I definitely remember being a bit frustrated with the slow pace, considering how it wasn't this bad in the Mistborn series or one-offs. I do think you'll enjoy part 3 more though, and each section (into the next book) more so. I think also how long it's taken you to get through this, especially with COVID hitting you, has made it worse. It's sorta like how some podcasters get a little bit of cabin fever with slower parts of books (several WoT podcasts are in "the slog" right now, it's definitely an issue at their pace)

You gotta admit though, that Rock is a legend for putting literal poo poo in Sadeas' food.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe

Mordiceius posted:

My biggest frustration in all of this is just the lack of magic and cool action. We've seen from the prologue that there's cool magic poo poo that can get done. But all we've gotten so far are a couple chapters of people wearing Ironman armor. This book, so far, has been incredibly low-magic fantasy. I'm just begging for something, anything magical to happen. I want to see people flying through the air. I want to learn more about all the magical powers. I've seen talk that there's like 10 types of Radiant magical powers. I'm ready to start seeing those. Please god. Give me anything more than just people standing around talking.

You will not be disappointed. There's a reason people love SA, you're still getting the groundwork for the remaining 9 novels.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
The magic power creep of Wheel of Time has nothing on Stormlight escalation.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Mordiceius posted:

Way of Kings - Part 2

Wooboy I have thoughts. I'm not as thoughtful or elequent as Pik_d, but here goes.
I'm right there with you on a lot of the stuff you wrote about. I'm consistently outspoken in my hatred for WoK, and Stormlight Archives is still my favorite Cosmere series by a mile. It'll pick up, I swear, and your reward for toughing it out will be having a proper foundation to understand all the awesome poo poo when it happens. And also you'll get to look back on your reactions and laugh -- because I am telling you right now, everyone in this thread who's read the series is laughing their heads off at one specific thing you said.

quote:

This also goes to my own biases with Kaladin just feeling too young. Oh look he's a child prodigy doctor at the age of 13. By the age of 16, he's a charismatic, incredibly skilled battlefield commander.
Don't forget that Roshar years are 500 days long. The Earth equivalent of those ages are 18 and 22.

quote:

Which highlights my biggest problem with the book so far - not enough cool magic poo poo. Currently, outside of the prologue, the only really magic poo poo we've seen is the people wearing their Ironman armor with their keyblades. I want to know more about these, but also, give me more magic. But really though, where do shard blades/plate come from? It seems to be a cheap imitation of the Radiants but is it a replica? Is shard plate just the radiant armor that has survived 5000 years? Is there a secret to unlocking its true power? Can new shard plate/blades be made? They had to come from somewhere originally.
If it helps, those questions are extremely on point. Some of those things are questions that the characters in the narrative are wondering about too. Some of it is actually stuff they know, but since I'm unsure what flashbacks/history you've gotten to, I'll tag it: Shardblades and Shardplate come from the Recreance, the day when all the Knights Radiant betrayed all of humanity by abandoning their Blade and Plate and disappearing.

quote:


My biggest frustration in all of this is just the lack of magic and cool action. We've seen from the prologue that there's cool magic poo poo that can get done. But all we've gotten so far are a couple chapters of people wearing Ironman armor. This book, so far, has been incredibly low-magic fantasy. I'm just begging for something, anything magical to happen. I want to see people flying through the air. I want to learn more about all the magical powers. I've seen talk that there's like 10 types of Radiant magical powers. I'm ready to start seeing those. Please god. Give me anything more than just people standing around talking.


Overall - I've settled into this book a lot more but I'm still incredibly frustrated and often incredibly bored during it. At the current point, it is near the bottom tier of Sanderson books for me.
Yeah. My complaints exactly, so take heart. Things will not always remain like that. I'll tag this bit for politness' sake but you can read it if you want, it's just a general idea of when to expect things to pick up: it'll get way better very quickly in Words of Radiance, but the poo poo you called out is exactly why I frequently denigrate WoK as a glorified prologue.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
I think the biggest problem for WoK part 2 for me, and something I mention above is -

Dalinar's and Adolin's stories feel like they have such clear direction and goals. While Kaladin's feels like it is just spinning its wheels. This isn't helped by the all too frequent flashbacks that I don't feel like they add enough for the amount of space they take up.

Kaladin's direction and goals feel so vague and barely there.

For Adolin and Dalinar, we're given a clear idea of what they want so I'm enjoying their journey of trying to achieve their goals.

For Kaladin, I have no loving clue what he wants. So every action feels completely disconnected from everything else.


CapnAndy posted:

Don't forget that Roshar years are 500 days long. The Earth equivalent of those ages are 18 and 22.

I've seen this mentioned before and I kind of hate this. Unless the 500 day years end up being important for plot reasons, it just feels like a needless detail. Any time I hear someone's age it just means I need to do math to figure out what their age should really be. It just feels unnecessary at best and adding needless confusion at worst.

Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Sep 13, 2023

Louisgod
Sep 25, 2003

Always Stupid
Bread Liar

Mordiceius posted:

Overall - I've settled into this book a lot more but I'm still incredibly frustrated and often incredibly bored during it. At the current point, it is near the bottom tier of Sanderson books for me.

I felt this way when I first read TWOK and was something like 50% or 60% of the way through, wondering what the hell all the hype was about. The story was slow, the narrative confusing, and you constantly wondered when everybody was going to get to the firework factory. As others have mentioned, book 1 is setting the groundwork for a 10 book story so yeah, it's going to drag due to everything being foreign or Sanderson playing the long game of reveals. I also think somebody mentioned that time acts differently in Roshar and that people are, compared to earth years, their age + 3 or whatever. Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief relative to a character's age (looking at you, JRPGs), and hell, even pretend they're a bit older.

Magic is coming. Good god is magic coming. I wish I could wipe my memory of everything SA so I can read it again just to relive Oathbringer fresh.

Mordiceius posted:

For Kaladin, I have no loving clue what he wants. So every action feels completely disconnected from everything else.

I don't think even Kaladin knows what he wants and it seems like people who suffer from extreme depression relate the most with him.[/spoiler]

Louisgod fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Sep 13, 2023

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Mordiceius posted:

I've seen this mentioned before and I kind of hate this. Unless the 500 day years end up being important for plot reasons, it just feels like a needless detail. Any time I hear someone's age it just means I need to do math to figure out what their age should really be. It just feels unnecessary at best and adding needless confusion at worst.
It's worldbuilding. They don't keep to a 365 day calendar. No reason why they should. Also, as you've already picked up on, Roshar is an extremely anime world. Think of it as cutesy justification for why the heroes are so much ridiculously younger than they should be and don't let it bug you.

Also, regarding Kaladin's motivations: you've met him at his lowest point. He's going to have to do a significant amount of growth to even get to the point where he wants anything. Right now all he can manage is "survive the daily parade of outrages visited upon me by forces out of my control for as long as possible".

Yeroc2
Aug 13, 2003

"The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body."
Grimey Drawer

CapnAndy posted:


Don't forget that Roshar years are 500 days long. The Earth equivalent of those ages are 18 and 22.


But the days are shorter. According to the Coppermind wiki, each year is only 10% longer than a normal year. So everyone is a little bit older than expected, but not as much as 500 days makes it seem.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

Louisgod posted:

I don't think even Kaladin knows what he wants and it seems like people who suffer from extreme depression relate the most with him.

This comes down to a personal failing of my own when it comes to empathy. The "Kaladin has depression" talk is something I see talked about a lot. I know that IRL, I generally have a really really really hard time around people with depression. We all have periods of our life when we're depressed but I'm talking actual clinical depression. It's one of the few groups of people where I just cannot connect. Maybe it is just because of my crazy hyperactive ADHD optimism in life.

I still think the most apt comparison in my mind is that Kaladin is a directionless Raoden.

Raoden, to me, was a failure of a character because he didn't really have an arc. He was just perfect from the get-go. I think even Brandon has mentioned that he made Raoden a little too much of a unflawed character. Kaladin feels like a Raoden with zero direction and I think that's the only way to make that character more boring.

I'm very curious to see what makes me finally come around on Kaladin because I'm sure I will. I've seen far too many people to profess Kaladin as their favorite fictional character of all time. At this point, to me, he's one of the most boring protags in the entire Cosmere.

Louisgod
Sep 25, 2003

Always Stupid
Bread Liar
Hey that’s a totally valid viewpoint, there’s nothing wrong if in the end Kaladin doesn’t vibe with you. I don’t have depression or have clinical depression so my connection to him from that front never really meshed, but I still understood and appreciated his position knowing how much Sanderson drug his whole life through the mud (literally) and hit absolute rock bottom has conditioned him to always expect the worst.

A lot of people love Shallan but I always found her uninteresting and annoying and was glad when her chapters were over.

Louisgod fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Sep 13, 2023

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone



Mistborn Book 3
Man, Sazed is just being a huge mega bummer this whole book. I kinda hate every POV chapter of his. I kinda liked Warbreaker more than this series because it has some really fun characters rather than everyone being super broody here.

Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Sep 13, 2023

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

Mordiceius posted:

This comes down to a personal failing of my own when it comes to empathy. The "Kaladin has depression" talk is something I see talked about a lot. I know that IRL, I generally have a really really really hard time around people with depression. We all have periods of our life when we're depressed but I'm talking actual clinical depression. It's one of the few groups of people where I just cannot connect. Maybe it is just because of my crazy hyperactive ADHD optimism in life.

I still think the most apt comparison in my mind is that Kaladin is a directionless Raoden.

Raoden, to me, was a failure of a character because he didn't really have an arc. He was just perfect from the get-go. I think even Brandon has mentioned that he made Raoden a little too much of a unflawed character. Kaladin feels like a Raoden with zero direction and I think that's the only way to make that character more boring.

I'm very curious to see what makes me finally come around on Kaladin because I'm sure I will. I've seen far too many people to profess Kaladin as their favorite fictional character of all time. At this point, to me, he's one of the most boring protags in the entire Cosmere.

It's ok, speaking as a person with clinical depression we hate ourselves too

I say that mostly in jest, but it has an element of truth to it. If it helps you sympathize with Kaladin's any, he probably would agree with your assessments. He's directionless because he's just trying to survive, and "trying to survive" is a tall order because sometimes he's not even sure he wants to live or why he bothers. He's a drowning man clinging to what little bits of driftwood he finds along the way... when he can muster the energy to care at all.

He's done all sorts of special things in his young life but it's meaningless and doesn't matter to him - he hasn't been able to do anything he actually wanted and in his eyes often made things worse when he tried, which makes it all the harder to muster any effort during his black moods. He keeps getting his poo poo kicked in, over and over. Any time he reaches for a thing to sustain him, it inevitably gets yanked away from him. He can't set his eyes on a goal on the horizon because even just lifting his eyes from his next step guarantees he will trip. He's so focused on his failures and shortcomings he can't see anything beyond them.

And the tragic thing is he realizes this is dumb and bad thinking and not at all reasonable, but he can't do anything about it so he ends up hating himself for being like that.

It's totally cool Kaladin isn't vibing with you btw, you're not wrong at all. Just hoping I can maybe give you some insight into why Kaladin is the way he is.

FWIW I found Raoden incredibly boring so you're not alone there, and while I looked forward to Kaladin's chapters the most I can't say I especially like him as a character

immoral_
Oct 21, 2007

So fresh and so clean.

Young Orc

Mordiceius posted:

This comes down to a personal failing of my own when it comes to empathy. The "Kaladin has depression" talk is something I see talked about a lot. I know that IRL, I generally have a really really really hard time around people with depression. We all have periods of our life when we're depressed but I'm talking actual clinical depression. It's one of the few groups of people where I just cannot connect. Maybe it is just because of my crazy hyperactive ADHD optimism in life.

I still think the most apt comparison in my mind is that Kaladin is a directionless Raoden.

Raoden, to me, was a failure of a character because he didn't really have an arc. He was just perfect from the get-go. I think even Brandon has mentioned that he made Raoden a little too much of a unflawed character. Kaladin feels like a Raoden with zero direction and I think that's the only way to make that character more boring.

I'm very curious to see what makes me finally come around on Kaladin because I'm sure I will. I've seen far too many people to profess Kaladin as their favorite fictional character of all time. At this point, to me, he's one of the most boring protags in the entire Cosmere.

As someone with depression for most of my thinking life span, even I get exasperated with Kaladin.

I get it, but I deal with it myself, I don't really need to read my own thoughts written by someone else.

I would like to say that the flashbacks do have payoff it just takes a while.

road potato
Dec 19, 2005

CapnAndy posted:

because I am telling you right now, everyone in this thread who's read the series is laughing their heads off at one specific thing you said.


Yeah, I had to figure out how to bring that up to the rest of us without spoiling it. Another highlight of the SA series is that scene.


I think the flashback thing is hit and miss, and if you're not powering through the books very rapidly, it feels like it slows down the pace. When I was doing the audiobooks I had an hour commute each direction, so I'd get through 10 hours of book in a workweek if I didn't listen to it while hanging out around the house. If you've paced that first bit over a number of weeks, that will make it feel like a slog for sure.

Brandon gets better at the flashback structure as the book goes on, with each of the SA books having it's own focus character. It depends on how much you like the 'main' narrative character that it flashes back to, and how invested you are in learning about their past. If you aren't interested in Kaladin then going back to learn about his pivotal moments, particularly with the slow build is... a bummer.

Full SA spoilers: personally I feel like I didn't get as much out of Shallan's flashbacks. I loved the Dalinar flashback arc in Oathbringer, and I enjoyed the worldbuilding from the ROW flashbacks with Eshnoai and Venli and getting more in-depth on Listener/Singer culture.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

Nitrousoxide posted:

Mistborn Book 3
Man, Sazed is just being a huge mega bummer this whole book. I kinda hate every POV chapter of his. I kinda liked Warbreaker more than this series because it has some really fun characters rather than everyone being super broody here.

If it helps ERA 2 Mistborn is far more upbeat and has more levity to it.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

Mordiceius posted:

This comes down to a personal failing of my own when it comes to empathy. The "Kaladin has depression" talk is something I see talked about a lot. I know that IRL, I generally have a really really really hard time around people with depression. We all have periods of our life when we're depressed but I'm talking actual clinical depression. It's one of the few groups of people where I just cannot connect. Maybe it is just because of my crazy hyperactive ADHD optimism in life.

I still think the most apt comparison in my mind is that Kaladin is a directionless Raoden.

Raoden, to me, was a failure of a character because he didn't really have an arc. He was just perfect from the get-go. I think even Brandon has mentioned that he made Raoden a little too much of a unflawed character. Kaladin feels like a Raoden with zero direction and I think that's the only way to make that character more boring.

I'm very curious to see what makes me finally come around on Kaladin because I'm sure I will. I've seen far too many people to profess Kaladin as their favorite fictional character of all time. At this point, to me, he's one of the most boring protags in the entire Cosmere.

If it helps I have crazy hyper ADHD optimism irl and my wife and brother have crippling depression. The books helped me handle my relationships a little better as I understood better. It took a long time to wrap my head around the fact most people can't just choose to be happy and switch their state of mind to endless joy and rainbows.

But yeah kaladin is one of my favorite characters
Spoilers for all of stormlight he never gives up and keeps standing back up. respect for that.

Also a ton of people have written about how reading Kaladin helped their own irl depression which is neat

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





I love how everyone loves Adolin.

He’s the best. He should be the insufferable jock with a trust fund, but instead he’s just a good dude who enjoys the privilege in his life without making it his entire personality.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe

CapnAndy posted:

And also you'll get to look back on your reactions and laugh -- because I am telling you right now, everyone in this thread who's read the series is laughing their heads off at one specific thing you said.

I'm actually kinda curious, because there's a bunch of points in there that are a little premature. I mean it's like someone's a third of the way through Fellowship of the Ring and they're wondering why a dumb hobbit gardener is a main character on an important quest or why there aren't any big battles yet

was it this stuff?

quote:

The Alethi, overall, suck poo poo. I'm with Adolin, lets start dueling and murdering high princes. gently caress those guys. Elhokar also sucks so much. He needs the poo poo smacked out of him. Just complete dumbass energy. I hope he gets assassinated or something because he's so goddamn stupid.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Also, Kaladin is fantasy Spider-Man.

The universe wants him to be miserable and he struggles mightily with that.

Also he (WoR spoiler, pik_d safe) even has a pro wrestling moment go wrong in a character defining way when he joins the royal rumble with Adolin.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

road potato posted:

I think the flashback thing is hit and miss

Yeah, I think the flashbacks are one of the most frustrating aspects so far for me. And that plays into my frustration into the structure of presentation of Kaladin's story.

He very frequently references two things - Tien's fate (I assume he's dead) as well as the fate of his squad in Chapter 1. He has mentioned both of these at least five times. But the thing is I have no idea what he is talking about.

There will be lines like: Kaladin knew he couldn't save them. Just like he couldn't save his squad. Just like he couldn't save Tien.

And I'm just sitting here thinking "I have no context and I have no idea what you're talking about." It's intensely frustrating. I particularly find the jump from Chapter 1 of Kaladin as squad leader to <REDACTED> and Kaladin as slave intensely frustrating. If those details are just being held back to make things seem more dramatic, it's intensely lame and is actually preventing me from connecting more to Kaladin. The book constantly talks around Kaladin's details without actually giving the Kaladin details.

It would be like, if in the Dalanar chapters, his High Storm "episodes" were kept secret but everyone kept saying "Ohhh Dalinar, people aren't trusting you because of your... condition" without actually saying what they're talking about.

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road potato
Dec 19, 2005

acumen posted:

I'm actually kinda curious, because there's a bunch of points in there that are a little premature. I mean it's like someone's a third of the way through Fellowship of the Ring and they're wondering why a dumb hobbit gardener is a main character on an important quest or why there aren't any big battles yet

was it this stuff?

I had assumed CapnAndy was talking about (WOR Spoiler) Elhokar sucks and needs to get the poo poo smacked out of him, because that scene is both funny and very satisfying. "Your mother and I are now courting, you might want to start growing accustomed to that" is just the all-time cherry on top.

But I could be wrong!

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