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not trolled not crying posted:This was my big problem with the third act. I saw it two days ago and I'm still sure I must have missed something because it was baffling how ALL the bad guys just voluntarily set themselves up for such an obvious trap in the middle of an open area. And was it necessary for all of them to be there? You'd think they leave some important people behind just in case it was a set up so they could have some back up. It can't be explained just by "yeah well they were blinded by their overconfidence and arrogance" because with such a lovely strategic mindset how could they have ever gotten so big in the first place? So the short version is that in the book, they're assembling at one of the most secure locations on the planet and are still drastically underestimating the Fremen. The Fremen have not done gigantic frontal assaults like this, and the Emperor and the Baron are there because [i]"what are you even loving doing, you flying idiot, why is your moronic nephew letting these loving DESERT SAVAGES grind spice production to a halt?! I will rip you a new one with my Sardaukar who are the only reason you're even in power here, and I am here to register my displeasure VERY loving PERSONALLY because you clearly won't take things seriously otherwise!" If there's anything worth showing up personally and posturing for, it's the spice.
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Feb 29, 2024 22:01
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not trolled not crying posted:This was my big problem with the third act. I saw it two days ago and I'm still sure I must have missed something because it was baffling how ALL the bad guys just voluntarily set themselves up for such an obvious trap in the middle of an open area. And was it necessary for all of them to be there? You'd think they leave some important people behind just in case it was a set up so they could have some back up. It can't be explained just by "yeah well they were blinded by their overconfidence and arrogance" because with such a lovely strategic mindset how could they have ever gotten so big in the first place? I saw it more as a series of consequences stemming from circumstances they couldn't do anything about and limited information. Basically: Paul sent the Emperor an "I lived bitch", which forces him into action. If left unchecked, Paul could credibly threaten to unveil the Emperor's involvement in the Atreides' demise and serve as a beacon for the other houses to rally around, which would lead to civil war unseating him. Especially if Paul were to manage to eject the Harkonnen from the planet. The Emperor's best/only chance was to go to Dune and either find an accord with Paul, or kill him with his Sardaukar and pretend that Muad'dib was just a random Fremen all along. It wasn't even particularly overconfident, either. Remember that until the Atreides actually made contact, basically the entire galaxy believed that there were just a few tens of thousands of Fremen around. And while the Emperor's fleet detected life signs in the southern hemisphere, that was after he arrived, and even then he couldn't really have guessed that there were literally millions of an insanely militarized society hidden down there. The army that the Emperor brought with him probably was strong enough to roll up an entire Great House like the Harkonnen on its own, he just had no way of knowing that the Fremen were that much stronger. As for where they set up, it wasn't an open area to begin with. It was a protected valley smack in the middle of high rock formation, usually a pretty strong defensive position. It wasn't until Paul literally nuked the mountain range away that it became so exposed. Landing in Arrakeen proper would not have been an feasible plan since the Emperor couldn't truly trust the Harkonnen either. Last but not least, the Harkonnen were there because the Emperor commanded them to. They didn't really have a choice in the matter, and the Emperor had no particular reason to assume his seemingly overwhelming army would be attacked so soon after landing.
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Feb 29, 2024 22:16
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Perestroika posted:I saw it more as a series of consequences stemming from circumstances they couldn't do anything about and limited information. Basically: Thanks, that cleared it up a lot for me! I guess I was just confused by how fast everything happened and how the Emperor & Harkkonens were suddenly just there in the middle of the valley in their pyramid and almost immediately get nuked & wormed. Although it was a nice and satisfying scene, it just kept bothering me after thinking about how everything escalated so quickly. Maybe it has more to do with the editing/pacing that I was confused by. But anyway, thanks for the comprehensive answer! not trolled not crying fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 22:33
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Okay watched Dune 2 Overall about as good as we can get given circumstances. My biggest problem is that the movie kind of defaults to a Hollywood house style. A lot of the line delivery is very LA-valley, the soundtrack is cello-base and much of the cinematography is attack of the giant faces. Which I get it, you have a lot of A listers so sure, zoom that camera in. But having just watched Zone of Interest it definitely feels very conventionally shot. Second problem is that the movie turns the Freemen into the Latina belt, which again Hollywood house style but you have sub-Saharan African, Spanish, middle eastern everyone gets to be Freemen in this movie. Villeneuve clearly wants this movie to be successful (more on this later), and it seems his primary visual impulse has been to strip all elements of 60’s psychedelia from the movie, which is odd. When you consider the movies that have made over a billion dollars at the box office, they tend to be colorful affairs, so I’m not sure how well this will pan out for him. Regardless almost all the weirdness has been stripped in favor of a fairly understandable feudal intrigue. No mentats, navigators, CHOAM, you would not know there are no computers in Dune from watching this movie. What there is is Villeneuve’s trademark love of brutalism combined with a healthy dose of Geiger, which is fitting since working on Jodorowsky’s Dune was Geiger’s big break (a Salvador Dali suggestion, of all things). The one practical problem is that a lot of the movie’s action is shot at dawn/dusk and those muted colors can make it real difficult to tell who is who in the fight of grey vs black. Best performance goes to Javier Bardem who basically gets to play Stilgar with a full range of emotion from comedy to zealotry, he basically carries the first third of the movie (and then disappears). Honorable mention goes to Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Villeneuve describes the first movie as being about the relationship between mother and son (which is strange considering some choices he makes here) but in part 2 Ferguson gets to play Jessica as drat near villainous. The movie basically becomes a conflict between Jessica and Chani, which is strange because Chani doesn’t get pregnant with Paul’s child in this movie (and Jessica is perma-pregnant). As for the plot, Dune adaptations have an age old problem: the first book’s arc is at odds with Herbert’s intended message for the series. Herbert intended the Dune series to be a refutation of chosen one narratives by taking them to their furthest logical extent (and in so doing partially inspired Star Wars which made chosen one protagonists a cliché of fantasy/sci-fi, never be successful). Villeneuve clearly doesn’t feel secure that he’ll get to make the second book, so what he did was graft much of the morality of the second book onto this movie. Which means that a lot of your mileage is going to depend on how much you appreciate Zendaya’s acting because she’s the Padme/voice of anti-fascism. And this is why I suspect that audiences will not like this movie because no one expects Timmy Tim to drink Hitler juice, succumb to fascism and declare galactic jihad. It’s an incredibly mature move from Villeneuve but it does feel like something he did because he doesn’t think this is making a billion dollars. Hope it does though. Oh Walken is totally wasted.
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Feb 29, 2024 22:34
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kalel posted:The Everlasting Gomjabbar kull wahad
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Feb 29, 2024 23:31
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notenome posted:The movie basically becomes a conflict between Jessica and Chani, which is strange because Chani doesn’t get pregnant with Paul’s child in this movie (and Jessica is perma-pregnant). Also, for what it's worth there's plenty of things in the first book to suggest that Paul isn't the messiah that the Fremen believe him to be - he spends most of the book trying desperately to avoid the Jihad, and releases Fremen from his hold once his first son gets killed by Sardukar. One criticism I have of part 2 is that, to me, it's not obvious why Paul actually sends the Fremen out to conquer - but maybe that's because I was exhausted by the end, so might've missed something - a 3 hour movie is too much for me, as it turns out. One thing I really appreciate is the direct reference to Dune being the Chakobsa word that Fremen use for Arrakis - I believe it's only implied in the book. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 00:03
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:One criticism I have of part 2 is that, to me, it's not obvious why Paul actually sends the Fremen out to conquer - but maybe that's because I was exhausted by the end, so might've missed something - a 3 hour movie is too much for me, as it turns out. Paul basically doesn't order the Fremen to do poo poo, they use him as an excuse to rampage across the imperium killing whoever the gently caress they want.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:07
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Monica Bellucci posted:Paul basically doesn't order the Fremen to do poo poo, they use him as an excuse to rampage across the imperium killing whoever the gently caress they want.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:10
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Huh, that's quite a character change, since iirc in the books Paul IS a religious fundamentalist
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Mar 1, 2024 00:14
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:One of the scenes after the fight with Feyd-Rautha has Paul saying that they need to fight all the great houses, after they refuse to recognize him - which doesn't explain anything, given what the movie spends time setting up in terms of Paul avoiding going South because of the religious fundamentalists who he fear will turn him into a figure for the Jihad. Not in the book. Mohiam says that Paul cannot loose the Fremen on the galaxy. What's he gonna say in public, "They don't actually listen to me like that"? His actual response is disingenuous as gently caress.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:18
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I think of the shot of the Harkonnen troops floating up the mountain in the orange pre-eclipse light as the music sting hits about once every hour. That Villeneuve goodness.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:30
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Blood Boils posted:Huh, that's quite a character change, since iirc in the books Paul IS a religious fundamentalist Monica Bellucci posted:Not in the book. Mohiam says that Paul cannot loose the Fremen on the galaxy. What's he gonna say in public, "They don't actually listen to me like that"? His actual response is disingenuous as gently caress. Bugblatter posted:I think of the shot of the Harkonnen troops floating up the mountain in the orange pre-eclipse light as the music sting hits about once every hour. That Villeneuve goodness.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:32
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:
so that is the most interesting change of the movie for me. Why did they not have Chani's pregnancy? the tension of the second act revolves around it and they took out the personal connection. I'm not even saying it's a mistake I just don't have a solid explanation in my mind as to why. Was it to further polarize Jessica and Chani? Did Villeneuve not want to cheapen Paul's change of heart (or perhaps not want him to be too sympathetic?) It's a really interesting decision because it runs in the opposite of conventional movie making, where personal connections are added to ground the action. The stupidest answer of course would be that they didn't include it because they didn't want Lady Jessica to deliver her baby during the movie since they clearly decided to cut Alia, and logically Chani wouldn't be able to give birth before Jessica.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:58
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Re: changing jiggery-pokery, it also helps set up Chani dies having kids, which Paul sees and allows Irulan to drug Chani with moon tea or whatever the gently caress. Today is the day I see 2Dunc2Fremen on the big rear end screen with rumble seat and smellz. Will report what Sietch Tabr smells like, other than sweaty Fremen.
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Mar 1, 2024 01:08
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re: previous spoilers about stuff not in the movie: With Messiah pretty much being a given now, I think Alia and Chani's pregnancy (along with Paul's downfall) slot better into a third movie instead of being a part of this one (which is already packed).
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Mar 1, 2024 01:20
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:That bothered me a bit, because the Holtzman effect, which is what powers shields, is also what makes levitation possible in Dune - so it'd attract worms too. A: In the books, not necessarily the movies. B: Worms have already been called to their location and they need to get to safety. They aren’t really concerned about not using shields until the thumper is destroyed
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Mar 1, 2024 01:27
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We are in for a full-on shitstorm here aren’t we, Purists vs DenisHeads Similar to the LOTR books purists who hated the changes in those films
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Mar 1, 2024 01:37
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Look, we ain't getting the dinner scene, let's get over it.
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Mar 1, 2024 01:38
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People moaning about the dinner scene is fast becoming the new "Han shot first"
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Mar 1, 2024 01:58
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Han shooting first was filmed and sold on home video More like Tom Bombadil
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Mar 1, 2024 02:03
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Blood Boils posted:Huh, that's quite a character change, since iirc in the books Paul IS a religious fundamentalist Not really. The Fremen unite around him as the Mahdi but then become their own force as much as they are his because of the sheer momentum of their faith and culture. He is still struggling with what happens in his name in Messiah, and if anything it's even more textual how much he hates and is terrified by it despite riding the wave of religious fervor to his victory in the first book. It's so much bigger than anyone, even the superman.
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Mar 1, 2024 02:04
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In Sci-Fi’s Children of Dune, Bene Gesserit are shown having secret communications by verbally having one conversation but using sign language to have secret spy conversations while guards are around 1: Was this in the Messiah book or Children 2: Can someone confirm if in the books, the secret communication is portrayed as having a verbal conversation with no sign language, but the verbal conversation is filled with hidden code words and subtext that flies over the heads of eavesdroppers
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Mar 1, 2024 02:15
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Dune 2? More like Dune 2 Good!!! Just got back from seeing it with my family. Movie was great. Bummed about Thufir being cut but it is what it is.
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Mar 1, 2024 02:47
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Just saw it, and while I still need to coalesce some thoughts, overall, I'm very happy with it. Not as stunned as I was with the first, but that was inevitable, and I may end up liking it more after some thought. Definitely more changes than part 1, but they're in a weird spot of "technically makes the movie better but I was curious to see how they would work around this and instead it was just cut." I wonder if Messiah is on the table/possible given some changes, but I feel a good number address the common problem of "idiots thinking Paul is the good guy'.
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Mar 1, 2024 03:52
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:How do you figure that? He's grown up knowing the ways that Bene Gesserit twist religions to suit their needs, and that's the exact thing he does to be recognized as the Lisan al-Gaib. The bene gesserit are themselves religious fundamentalists! They have incredible faith in the necessity of creating the Perfect Man Paul breaks with them somewhat, and leans more towards the fremen. However exploitative Paul is of the fremen for his revenge at first, he seems fully assimilated into their beliefs by the end of his life, considering how he behaves regarding his eyes + his sister's regency. disposablewords posted:Not really. The Fremen unite around him as the Mahdi but then become their own force as much as they are his because of the sheer momentum of their faith and culture. He is still struggling with what happens in his name in Messiah, and if anything it's even more textual how much he hates and is terrified by it despite riding the wave of religious fervor to his victory in the first book. It's so much bigger than anyone, even the superman. Sure, but I'm not arguing he doesn't feel doubt or regret or any number of normal emotions. I'm saying he is a genuine believer in the golden path, that's a fundie ideology! It has been awhile since I read the books, but this is the impression my memory has left me atm
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Mar 1, 2024 04:15
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trying to plan when I'm seeing dune 2: the squeakquel and I fell into the imax rabbit hole why do corporations insist on obfuscating things which should be simple?? just tell me the size of the screen and the ratio of the projection please. for the love of god
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Mar 1, 2024 06:20
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Steve Yun posted:In Sci-Fi’s Children of Dune, Bene Gesserit are shown having secret communications by verbally having one conversation but using sign language to have secret spy conversations while guards are around It's in Dune, the bg do it all the time. The most significant exchange is count fenrig and his wife, who talk a bunch of bland nonsense that translates (via some kind of code) to a conversation
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Mar 1, 2024 06:32
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in Dune p1 you can see Jessica using sign language to communicate with the Atreides soldier while she is talking to Shadout Mapes, Atreides Battle Language. in the books i think it was a spoken language rather than signs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHOXkmDJTGk
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Mar 1, 2024 06:53
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9.5/10 great movie Haven’t read the books in 18 years but movie book comparisons are usually annoying (discussions here are good though!)
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Mar 1, 2024 07:14
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Blood Boils posted:The bene gesserit are themselves religious fundamentalists! They have incredible faith in the necessity of creating the Perfect Man The Golden Path isn't really an ideology in-universe so much as it is the one path visible in his (and his son's) prescience that doesn't ultimately end in human extinction. Like it doesn't take any special belief, it is a thing he actually sees with his extra senses, much as a sighted man can see a mountain peak that a blind man cannot. The desirability of it and its means to see it through might be up for ideological debate, but its existence is as factual as the existence of Paul himself in the story. Plus the idea that Paul becomes fully assimilated in the Fremen ways is really complicated. The Fremen warp around him more than he changes to fit them, much as the complaining old Fedaykin Farok says in the beginning of Messiah. Paul has to cleave to some of their ways at times to keep people from getting too restive, but other times he's perfectly willing to shout someone down for how he breaks with their ways. As far as his own eyes go, he ties them up with technicalities on how he can still "see" and only finally fucks off as tradition demands after repeatedly breaking tradition, because it gives him an excuse to throw his burdens away when they become unbearable.
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Mar 1, 2024 08:42
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I didn't get a chance to catch Dune in theatres. But soon enough I watched on a big enough screen. And I secretly didn't enjoy it that much, Now to prepare for Part Two I am watching it on my laptop and it's just about phenomenal.
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Mar 1, 2024 09:47
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This was badass, I think I like it more than the first sheerly based on it being able to jump straight into the action as a sequel. I loved the overhead shot of Paul walking through the packed Fremen crowd as people shift to let him by. It reminded me of the sandworms' movement, which is a super clever visual link.
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Mar 1, 2024 10:01
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Javier was great.
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Mar 1, 2024 10:43
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disposablewords posted:The Golden Path isn't really an ideology in-universe so much as it is the one path visible in his (and his son's) prescience that doesn't ultimately end in human extinction. Like it doesn't take any special belief, it is a thing he actually sees with his extra senses, much as a sighted man can see a mountain peak that a blind man cannot. The desirability of it and its means to see it through might be up for ideological debate, but its existence is as factual as the existence of Paul himself in the story. I feel like that's a bit reductive; given Paul is still a young man iirc only barely reaching age of majority at the start of the story, it'd be impossible for him not to live the life he does and have the influence go both ways, and of course being in a position of power like that quite clearly fucks with people's heads at the best of times. Not to mention he and most everyone else involved is literally on drugs the entire time.
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Mar 1, 2024 10:47
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I have seen, my brothers, and it was glorious.
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Mar 1, 2024 11:12
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Jewmanji posted:Come to Boston where the only two proper IMAX screens do not allow for reserved seats and only have showings on the weekends come to new zealand where the only proper imax screen is in auckland
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Mar 1, 2024 11:26
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 the audience genuinely applauded when nicole kidman's AMC thing started, cinema is magic
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Mar 1, 2024 11:36
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sebmojo posted:It's in Dune, the bg do it all the time. The most significant exchange is count fenrig and his wife, who talk a bunch of bland nonsense that translates (via some kind of code) to a conversation In addition to this, Chakobsa isn’t understood by anyone not Fremen or Bene Gesserit, and battle languages are closely guarded to the point that Jessica doesn’t understand the Harkonnen variant.
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Mar 1, 2024 12:56
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Chieves posted:So how is Wonka and Dune II as a double feature? https://twitter.com/bene25_/status/1762631362597519859
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Mar 1, 2024 14:14
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like that's a bit reductive; given Paul is still a young man iirc only barely reaching age of majority at the start of the story, it'd be impossible for him not to live the life he does and have the influence go both ways, and of course being in a position of power like that quite clearly fucks with people's heads at the best of times. It’s made pretty clear that the Fremen culture under Paul became decadent, fascist, etc. By Messiah they’d already instituted slavery. All those mentions about Fremen culture slowly losing water discipline is a metaphor for how much the Atreides have contaminated Fremen culture.
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Mar 1, 2024 14:15
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