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The thing that's scary about the Hellcat is no manufacturer ever releases a new engine in a max power setup. First years are usually conservative. So if 707 is the baseline, what the gently caress is one 5 years from now gonna make? We also haven't seen the big V8's get direct injection yet. It's a good time to be alive.
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Sep 15, 2014 12:05
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Throatwarbler posted:Heh, just heard on Autoline that the Challenger Hellcatte is limited to 205 (or whatever) only by aero. There are no mechanical or electronic speed limiters. The Charger Hellcatte will actually be faster because it has better aero. The charger hellcat is supposed to be the fastest sedan. Ever. Of course there is the whole "i'll believe it when I see it" but I think the Silver Spur hits 200 if I remember right as the current fastest sedan, so the charger should beat it with room to spare.
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Sep 15, 2014 12:09
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VikingSkull posted:The thing that's scary about the Hellcat is no manufacturer ever releases a new engine in a max power setup. First years are usually conservative. So if 707 is the baseline, what the gently caress is one 5 years from now gonna make? If they make this thing any faster, they'll have to put a red phone on the dashboard so you can call the President for the launch control codes. "Mr. President, I need to smoke this other middle aged dude in the GT500 NOW." "Your launch code is 0 0 0 0 0 0. May God have mercy on our souls."
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Sep 15, 2014 14:34
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Is it wrong of me to be considering the scat pack instead of the hellcat? One less problem without FI.
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Sep 15, 2014 14:43
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Elephanthead posted:Is it wrong of me to be considering the scat pack instead of the hellcat? One less problem without FI. Absolutely not. The scat pack is the sweet spot of the line. Especially if you are going for a daily driver, some reviews say the supercharger whine is loud.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:24
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Modus Man posted:Absolutely not. The scat pack is the sweet spot of the line. Especially if you are going for a daily driver, some reviews say the supercharger whine is loud. If you can't handle the massive erection from loud supercharger whine in your DD you need to reflect on your life.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:35
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fknlo posted:If you can't handle the massive erection from loud supercharger whine in your DD you need to reflect on your life. Priapism is a serious business, it can result in loss of your cock. Don't fool around with all-day hard-ons.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:38
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Seat Safety Switch posted:If they make this thing any faster, they'll have to put a red phone on the dashboard so you can call the President for the launch control codes. Dodge Recall serial # 1945OPPENHEIMER: all hellcats were accidentally programmed with the launch code 6666, leading to the extinction of the human race.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:39
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Powershift posted:Maybe with a tail wind. car and driver tested it at 5.6, motor trend at 6.0. basically identical to the modern 328i which has 5 more horsepower 33 more lb/ft of torque, and is dragging around an extra 110 lbs.  I mis-remembered the number from the C&D review I read a few years ago - I mixed up the 1/4 mile time (14.3) with the 0-60. Also note I didn't mention any current BMWs as being in the 'kinda slow compared to a 10 year old car' list, as steering feedback woes aside, they at least manage to have the current ones not be slower than previous versions.Point still stands, new cars are too drat slow for how many horsepowers they have. I started looking at 0-60 times of current model cars a couple weeks ago because I noticed that the Focus ST was slower than my current car, despite having more power and less weight - which made me get curious what other current cars are as fast/faster as my not-particularly-that-fast daily driver. The Mustang is one of the very few under ~$30k. 
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Sep 15, 2014 16:01
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HotCanadianChick posted:
If you're talking quarter-mile times, a lot of is probably due due to things like people caring a lot more about fuel economy which leads to taller gearing, emissions tuning slowing shifts, etc. With modern chassis design and suspension new cars are almost certainly faster in most real-world driving scenarios.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:30
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HotCanadianChick posted:
BMW E46 330 definitely outpunched its class for its day and it still can take corners 40mph faster stock than its competitors. There is a reason there are still so many on the roads as opposed to the Audi/Infiniti/etc counterparts as nobody gives a poo poo about keeping those others alive. I still want a Hellcat 4x4 Campervan.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:26
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The gear ratios tell a lot of the story here. I don't know why the hell they geared it the way they did - the ATS needs an extra shift to hit the 60 and 100mph benchmarks, and an extra shift for the 1/4 as well.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:36
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poo poo, I'd rather have the car geared for practical powerband than to avoid slower 0-60 times.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:15
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:poo poo, I'd rather have the car geared for practical powerband than to avoid slower 0-60 times. ya although usually rolling starts measure that and the ATS still loses. I had a rental ATS for a while and it felt slow as poo poo. Strangely slow actually, I was wondering if it had some subtle mechanical issue or if the rental version had some weird software tune to keep people on a leash. I guess its just a dog engine in an otherwise nice car. On the topic of rentals: I have a rental Impala thats brand new and holy poo poo, is there some hidden problem or did Chevy actually build a really nice sedan? Its got a great interior, rides well and has enough get-up to scare my teammates.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:08
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Xguard86 posted:ya although usually rolling starts measure that and the ATS still loses. If you're doing 5-60 and you have to shift at 59mph you still pay the penalty with the extra shift. edit: but yes the ATS seems straight up slower.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:11
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HotCanadianChick posted:
To be fair to the Focus, you're comparing a turbo FWD car with an open diff, basically the worst setup for drag racing ever, to a RWD car with a LSD, basically the classic setup for drag racing. But I think there is something to what you're saying. The latest Civic Si, for example, despite having ~10 more HP, ~40 more lb/ft, and ~50 less pounds of weight than the last generation isn't any faster in a straight line. Bigger wheels and a taller final drive are the culprits I think.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:54
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Your launch code is 0 0 0 0 0 0.  This deserves more respect.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:poo poo, I'd rather have the car geared for practical powerband than to avoid slower 0-60 times. They're not geared for practical powerband, they're geared to game the EPA fuel economy numbers. PeterWeller posted:To be fair to the Focus, you're comparing a turbo FWD car with an open diff, basically the worst setup for drag racing ever, to a RWD car with a LSD, basically the classic setup for drag racing. E46s don't have LSDs except for the M3.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:02
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PeterWeller posted:To be fair to the Focus, you're comparing a turbo FWD car with an open diff, basically the worst setup for drag racing ever, to a RWD car with a LSD, basically the classic setup for drag racing. I sort of assumed he wasn't doing this because it would be ridiculous but w/e.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:02
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InitialDave posted:
yeah that's excellent haha
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Sep 15, 2014 22:21
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Cream_Filling posted:I sort of assumed he wasn't doing this because it would be ridiculous but w/e. Like comparing a Porsche Cayman to a Scion?
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Sep 15, 2014 23:26
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Xguard86 posted:ya although usually rolling starts measure that and the ATS still loses. It was probably the base 2.5 which is rubbish in the ATS. I've driven a 2.0T auto and manual ATS and both were comparable to the German and Japanese equivalent with the exception of the ATS being slightly more coarse. The manual (like the one in my Cruze Eco) was geared too low in 1st and 2nd, requiring a shift into 3rd at about 58 mph. I had a rental Impala a couple of weeks ago in Chicago and it really is that good. The only thing remotely negative I could mention is the rear visibility is bad, and the dashboard was a little busy visually. If only the Malibu were that good.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:57
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HotCanadianChick posted:E46s don't have LSDs except for the M3. Fair enough, but your 330 is still better setup for a straight line run. And I bet that Focus takes a big dump on it in 30-50 and 50-70 passing tests where it isn't struggling to find grip.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:02
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PeterWeller posted:Fair enough, but your 330 is still better setup for a straight line run. And I bet that Focus takes a big dump on it in 30-50 and 50-70 passing tests where it isn't struggling to find grip. And the turbo is already spooled.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:42
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On the earlier hellcat discussion, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BZOcxQQC2M If those noises bother you, you shouldn't be posting here.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:58
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PeterWeller posted:Fair enough, but your 330 is still better setup for a straight line run. And I bet that Focus takes a big dump on it in 30-50 and 50-70 passing tests where it isn't struggling to find grip. Ok, to put it in another perspective, the FoST is only a tenth or so faster 0-60 than an Integra Type-R, which is even older than my car, is FWD like the Focus, and has a 50+ HP and 100+ lb/ft deficit. The FoST should by all rights be at least a half second quicker, not 1/10th. On the AWD side, the A4 Quattro, which should be decisively faster than my car from a stop, only barely manages to post the same time as my car. Point still stands, modern cars aren't as fast as they should be according to the HP/weight numbers.
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Sep 16, 2014 01:29
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HotCanadianChick posted:Ok, to put it in another perspective, the FoST is only a tenth or so faster 0-60 than an Integra Type-R, which is even older than my car, is FWD like the Focus, and has a 50+ HP and 100+ lb/ft deficit. The FoST should by all rights be at least a half second quicker, not 1/10th. Regulations seriously gently caress both of them on modern cars.
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Sep 16, 2014 01:39
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HotCanadianChick posted:Ok, to put it in another perspective, the FoST is only a tenth or so faster 0-60 than an Integra Type-R, which is even older than my car, is FWD like the Focus, and has a 50+ HP and 100+ lb/ft deficit. The FoST should by all rights be at least a half second quicker, not 1/10th. No. The ITR has something like a 500 pound weight advantage, a LSD, and incredibly short gear ratios. You can sidestep the clutch at 6K and the ITR will just go. From anything other than a standing start, the FoST will walk it. Also, the FoST likely gets better highway mpg. E: Also, you're comparing a good modern hot hatch to "the greatest FWD car ever made." PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 01:41
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PeterWeller posted:E: Also, you're comparing a good modern hot hatch to "the greatest FWD car ever made." There weren't very many other fast FWD cars sold in the US a decade ago, so choices of cars from that era to compare vs. the current FoST are limited. Also, do you not think a decade is enough time to improve upon the ITR? Why do you feel it is acceptable for there to have not been a better FWD performance car after this long? Why is the FoST slower than a 10 year old Dodge Neon SRT 4? The Neon is nearly a half second faster, yet has roughly the same power figures and not too much of a weight difference. ilkhan posted:Weight and gearing. Yes, you get it.
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Sep 16, 2014 02:31
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HotCanadianChick posted:Why do you feel it is acceptable for there to have not been a better FWD performance car after this long? There's been plenty, just not in America. quote:Why is the FoST slower than a 10 year old Dodge Neon SRT 4? Because the SRT4 was a balls out crazy little performance car and the FoST is a generic hot hatch. The SRT4 had more in common with the cars you find in Europe like the Civic Type-R.
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Sep 16, 2014 02:40
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HotCanadianChick posted:There weren't very many other fast FWD cars sold in the US a decade ago, so choices of cars from that era to compare vs. the current FoST are limited. Also, do you not think a decade is enough time to improve upon the ITR? Why do you feel it is acceptable for there to have not been a better FWD performance car after this long? Because the SRT-4 was hard to live with, had a custom short ratio gearbox (in part because it was based on a car with a heavy club racing presence), and is based on an economy car with pretty bad crash safety even by contemporary standards? The Integra Type-R had pretty much zero sound deadening and didn't even come with a radio. Rip out all the extra weight off of the Focus and change the gearing and it'll probably be much faster due to modern chassis engineering with stronger construction methods, better materials, and higher tolerances. PS They already make a modern version of the Integra Type-R, it's called the FR-S/BRZ. Similar power to weight and overall weight, similar straight-line performance, great handling, but much cheaper ($24,455 of 2001 dollars would be worth: $32,693.85 in 2014)
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Sep 16, 2014 02:52
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Doesn't the Focus electronically limit torque in the lower gears to prevent torque steer, like the MS3?
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Sep 16, 2014 02:55
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fknlo posted:On the earlier hellcat discussion, this part is peak Dodge hood flappin', body rollin' giving no fucks
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Sep 16, 2014 02:55
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PeterWeller posted:You can sidestep the clutch at 6K and the ITR will just go. Yeah, launching at 3k in those cars adds a good second onto the 0-60 time because you have to wait forever until you get into the powerband. But when it does...whew. HotCanadianChick posted:There weren't very many other fast FWD cars sold in the US a decade ago, so choices of cars from that era to compare vs. the current FoST are limited. Also, do you not think a decade is enough time to improve upon the ITR? Why do you feel it is acceptable for there to have not been a better FWD performance car after this long? Newer cars are better, just in a different way. The ultra-high revving cars from the 90-00s were really fun to drive, but they took a lot of skill to enjoy. You had to be in exactly the right gear for every corner, because so much speed is lost when the revs fall below 6k. To make matters worse, it took a lot of finesse to be smooth with inputs while a motor is spinning at 7k. The FoST is not only much, much, much easier to live with day-to-day, but you don't have to worry so much about gearing when you're on the back roads. It doesn't really make a difference if you take a 50mph corner in second or third. The torque curve is so flat and meaty that you'll spin the tires either way. I think if the ITR were teleported to today, it would be a sales flop. The market has changed so dramatically. Nobody wants FWD performance cars anymore. Those that end up buying them do so primarily for their hatchback utility. Additionally, people have complained about the engines like the K20 being "peaky" and hard to drive on the streets without winding them out, so Honda ended up replacing it with a much larger motor. Pretty much any performance car that doesn't come with a factory turbo option ends up being berated in the media for it (FR-S, Civic Si). oRenj9 fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 03:03
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Also Honda lost money on every Integra Type R soldwikipedia posted:An interesting and little-publicized fact about the 1995–2000 DC2 Type R is that Honda lost money on every single vehicle sold, even though extra dealer markups sometimes made for excessive dealer profit. Honda produced the DC2 Type R for homologation purposes to meet FIA certification of the motor and the chassis changes to make the car more competitive in N-series and World Cup racing. The details required, hand tooling in early versions and finishing the product through the use of various small fabrication shops in Japan made for increased costs in manufacture that could not be made up in the list price of the vehicles. Honda (and Acura in the US) deemed the car important for the marque's image and important for the racing programmes of the era, and the parent company therefore accepted a financial net loss on each vehicle sold.
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Sep 16, 2014 03:07
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PeterWeller posted:No. The ITR has something like a 500 pound weight advantage, a LSD, and incredibly short gear ratios. Cream_Filling posted:Because the SRT-4 was hard to live with, had a custom short ratio gearbox To go back a bit in this discussion, you two realize you're making my point for me... right? Modern cars are too heavy and have crappy tall eco-oriented gearing even in the supposedly 'hot' versions. A decade ago it was common to have short gears in performance models, not anymore.
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Sep 16, 2014 03:32
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HotCanadianChick posted:To go back a bit in this discussion, you two realize you're making my point for me... right? Modern cars are too heavy and have crappy tall eco-oriented gearing even in the supposedly 'hot' versions. A decade ago it was common to have short gears in performance models, not anymore. Probably due to the fact that they still need those cars to up their fuel mileage. That's a much more pressing need now vs a decade ago, I'd think.
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Sep 16, 2014 03:38
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fknlo posted:On the earlier hellcat discussion, I'm loving this, but right now the biggest thing really bothering me (besides not being able to go drive one yet) is the hood panel gap in the front. It's extremely noticeable in this color, but the front clip doesn't line up with the hood at all. Look at scenes where the car is sitting still, it looks like the hood is being pulled off by the wind in the front corners. The panel gap where the plastic meets the metal in the rear is bothersome as well. It's like the plastic bits aren't even attempting to fit right on the rest of the car. (Note: I'm assuming they're testing a press pre-production car and it will be a bit better when these things roll off the line... I hope.) Sound is phenomenal though, and one of these in TorRed will be finding it's way to my garage.
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Sep 16, 2014 03:41
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HotCanadianChick posted:To go back a bit in this discussion, you two realize you're making my point for me... right? Modern cars are too heavy and have crappy tall eco-oriented gearing even in the supposedly 'hot' versions. A decade ago it was common to have short gears in performance models, not anymore.
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Sep 16, 2014 04:04
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HotCanadianChick posted:There weren't very many other fast FWD cars sold in the US a decade ago, so choices of cars from that era to compare vs. the current FoST are limited. Also, do you not think a decade is enough time to improve upon the ITR? Why do you feel it is acceptable for there to have not been a better FWD performance car after this long? There were tons of "fast" FWD cars in America in the 90s and 00s. You could have gone with a Civic Si or a GTI or a Sentra SE-R or a Focus SVT. Instead, you picked the very best "fast" FWD car ever made. If you don't think those other cars are fast enough to be considered, then you concede the point because those are the FoST's predecessors, the cars that filled the market it now does. The Neon SRT4 could actually hook up. That's what you keep ignoring. The FoST posts poor 0-60 and 1/4 mile times because it has trouble launching. From anything other than a standing start, it will absolutely destroy an ITR and will probably pull on a stock SRT4. And it will be a whole lot nicer and get better MPG to boot! HotCanadianChick posted:To go back a bit in this discussion, you two realize you're making my point for me... right? Modern cars are too heavy and have crappy tall eco-oriented gearing even in the supposedly 'hot' versions. A decade ago it was common to have short gears in performance models, not anymore. No. Again, the ITR was a stripped down homologation special, and the SRT4 was an insane "factory tuner" car. They're like the 911 GT3 and Hellcat of FWD cars. The FoST is like a Carerra 2 or R/T. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 08:31
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